Towers of Midnight SPOILER THREAD

[fionwe1987]

Do dreamers dreams always come true? Are there any dreams that have not?

No they don't. They can come true, but unlike foretellings, the events you see in your dream can be countered and avoided.

Yes, there has been one instance where a dream didn't come true. The Wise Ones dreamed that Moiraine would herself ask to go to Rhuidean. However, Melaine slipped up and revealed this, so that is why Moiraine asked to go. So the dream was falsified.

Also, what happened to Alanna?

No clue. She got a letter from Verin, then vanished.

[Spring Bass]

Interesting stuff, Fionwe. I think I'm probably going to go looking for those Robert Jordan Q & A's that I remember reading a while back.

It's absolutely ridiculous that you are applying modern day morals to such a society. Was the Roman Empire a "dark time" for its inhabitants? Only to the people living on the fringes. And it treated people far, far worse than the Seanchan do.

You might have a point, except that

A)the Seanchan Empire makes the real-historical Roman Empire look like an anarcho-libertarian commune by comparison (and yes, it is far worse), and

B)we were comparing the Seanchan rule to the existing nations before they showed up. And I can confidently say that the coastal nations of Randland were much better off before the Seanchan showed up with their 900-year-old land claim. At the very least, they didn't have the burden of supporting the Seanchan forces, or have to suffer the Seanchan pulling aside and checking every single one of their women for channeling capability and possible enslavement.

[Poobah]

Just wanted to point this out:

First. Jordan said it... so what? Egwene doesn't know that. Rand doesn't know that. Lews Therin Telamon doesn't know that. Frankly I absolutely and totally resent authors making statements like that. It's like Jordan specifically stating that Taim =/= Demandred. It's a fucking retarded thing to say. Personally I really dislike authors making blanket 'cannon' statements about anything that happens in their novels, from outside of their novels. Clarifying something that's happened in a book, and answering questions about backstory and whatnot I can kinda deal with but I still feel that they really shouldn't. But stuff that might actually still be relevant to the story? Seems dumb. Like it was dumb to taunt people with the 'intuitively obvious' Asmodean murderer question. Oh it was Graendal... well that has no further effect on the story. Knowing that Taim isn't Demandred is important.

As far as I am concerned, unless the creator appears in person in A Memory of Light and says "if you do this then both halves of the source will be tainted" then Jordan's statement is nothing more than idle speculation and carries no more weight than anyone else's in interpreting events shown within the novels. Until something actually appears in the primary text then it doesn't really count, and even then any critic should be free to read and interpret it in any way they please.

Do you have something more than Jordan's statement "look this character is in the right" like... y'know... maybe something from actually within the text? I could write a novel in which the protagonist goes on a psychopathic rampage murdering and torturing people left right and centre in extreme detail. If I said in an interview "oh it's alright, they were actually all neo-nazi-terrorists" then you could tell me that I'm both wrong and a fucking idiot and that I put nothing within the text of the novel to support my outrageous attempt to justify my protagonist's actions. I don't know why so many people (and this seems very specific to the fantasy sub-genre too, not even the whole of SF) place so much absolute emphasis on shit the writer says about their secondary world.

And I repeat again: Egwene's interpretation of her dream of the eagle babies in the next being consumed by the serpent is clearly wrong, she believed it was telling her that Mesaana was the assassin, within the WT posing as a AS and picking the other AS off, but this was definitely not the case.

[fionwe1987]

First. Jordan said it... so what? Egwene doesn't know that. Rand doesn't know that. Lews Therin Telamon doesn't know that. Frankly I absolutely and totally resent authors making statements like that. It's like Jordan specifically stating that Taim =/= Demandred. It's a fucking retarded thing to say. Personally I really dislike authors making blanket 'cannon' statements about anything that happens in their novels, from outside of their novels. Clarifying something that's happened in a book, and answering questions about backstory and whatnot I can kinda deal with but I still feel that they really shouldn't. But stuff that might actually still be relevant to the story? Seems dumb. Like it was dumb to taunt people with the 'intuitively obvious' Asmodean murderer question. Oh it was Graendal... well that has no further effect on the story. Knowing that Taim isn't Demandred is important.

As far as I am concerned, unless the creator appears in person in A Memory of Light and says "if you do this then both halves of the source will be tainted" then Jordan's statement is nothing more than idle speculation and carries no more weight than anyone else's in interpreting events shown within the novels. Until something actually appears in the primary text then it doesn't really count, and even then any critic should be free to read and interpret it in any way they please.

Do you have something more than Jordan's statement "look this character is in the right" like... y'know... maybe something from actually within the text? I could write a novel in which the protagonist goes on a psychopathic rampage murdering and torturing people left right and centre in extreme detail. If I said in an interview "oh it's alright, they were actually all neo-nazi-terrorists" then you could tell me that I'm both wrong and a fucking idiot and that I put nothing within the text of the novel to support my outrageous attempt to justify my protagonist's actions. I don't know why so many people (and this seems very specific to the fantasy sub-genre too, not even the whole of SF) place so much absolute emphasis on shit the writer says about their secondary world.

:rolleyes: I'm not getting into this discussion again. Whether you think authors are eeeevil for discussing their secondary worlds or not, they do, and those things do matter in discussions, and do so across several series.

As for in story evidence: Lews Therin says that saidin got tainted because to place the seals, they actually had to touch the DO with saidin. If saidar was used, it would have touched the DO as well. Since touching the DO tainted saidin, the same would have happened to saidar. The only reason I didn't use this argument was because RJ's statement was more conclusive. With this, someone could argue to the contrary, though nothing in the books would support it.

And I repeat again: Egwene's interpretation of her dream of the eagle babies in the next being consumed by the serpent is clearly wrong, she believed it was telling her that Mesaana was the assassin, within the WT posing as a AS and picking the other AS off, but this was definitely not the case.

No, she was completely right. Unless you can show me some evidence that the Bloodknives were posing as Aes Sedai, there's no way they fit. As her dream clearly shows, the eaglets believe the snake is one of them (AS believing Danelle was one of them), whereas she actually was not. That Bloodknives were killing Aes Sedai at the same time is a coincidence, not a negation of Egwene's interpretation of the Dream.

And it has been stated several times, including in the Guide, that a dreamers interpretation is the only one that counts and is always right. I don't see the point of arguing with what is a fact of the WoT world.

[alguien]

Just wanted to point this out:

Originally Posted by Budapest Q&A - April 2003 Q: Why saidin, why not saidar, was tainted?

RJ: Because there were only men in the party that made up the party that made up the Strike at Shayol Ghul, that were setting the seals. In the act of setting the seals, there was a backblast that affected the people doing this. As I pointed out in something…I wrote a piece called The Strike at Shayol Ghul…there was a great division at the time – I don’t know if all of you have read it…or have none of you read it?

Qs: Yes, yes.

RJ: Okay, then you know about the political struggles that were going on, and the different plans to try and end the War of the Shadow, and seal up the….and why various groups thought that one plan or the other was the best way to go. And in the end, what resulted was the so-called “Fatal Covenant” [it was actually the “Fateful Concord” – Terez], which had the female Aes Sedai swearing not to go along with Lews Therin’s plan, that they would not support it. The result of this was that Lews Therin carried out his plan with only male Aes Sedai, so there were only male Aes Sedai channeling there, which was a lucky thing, because if there’d been women as well, then both saidin and saidar would have been tainted. And his plan worked, except for that one side effect of the backblast which tainted saidin and caused him and the men there with him to go mad there and then, and other male Aes Sedai to go mad slowly as they touched the Source and began to absorb bits of the taint. But that’s why saidar was not tainted, because there were only men there channeling during this act of sealing up the Dark One’s prison.

So yes, saidar would be tainted if it were used in the Sealing.

I'll reply to the rest later.

Ah. It annoying that we have to find that out definitively in an interview, rather than from the text. But that's par for the course with RJ.

[macaroni]

I think Tam/Perrin tardiness is the major problem with the book, I agree wholeheartedly.

I also think that it was unavoidable. To do it any other way would have meant that TGS would have been a continuity book á la COT instead of having a defined story arc for Rand and Egwene.

Team Jordan learned from their mistake.

Other than that, this is a great book. Aviendha's chapter most of all! Assuming that BS wrote this chapter, I think it was the best writing he has ever done.

[OsRavan]

What Bass said. Compare the Seanchan to their neighbors. And dont give me the "no one is starving" BS. Sure Tarb. was in chaos before they came, but besides from that no other nation was starving either. Certainly the chaos in the wetlands was no worse than the chaos in the actual seanchan homeland right now.

In any event. The other randland nations arent perfect by modern sensibilities either. But compare the Seanchan to them...

1) You have the seanchan enslaving all female channlers. Not just enslaving, but pretty much breaking their minds and turning them into little better than animals.

2) You have widespread slavery outside of the saidar wielders.

3) You have an extremely top/bottom society that allows little social movement and is extremely stratified. In particular look at the rights of a commoner among the seanchan compared to a commoner of say Andor. Or an Aiel warrior. The Seanchan are the least egalitarian of all the societies we have met.

4) You have a full-blown police state set up. Questioners running around spying on the population to sniff out treason etc etc. Especially once you give them some technology, its going to remind you a lot of some 1930s/40s totalitarian state.

5) They basically committed genocide on the Aiel. Note. Im not saying the Aiel were right in starting that war in the possible time-line. But the Seanchan didnt just *defeat* them.... they pretty much wiped them out of existence as a people and a culture. Whats left by the time the Seanchan finish with them? A few stragglers hiding in the desert with no knowledge of their history or culture... being hunted down for fun as they try to make a living by stealing?

Sorry, cant get behind the whole genocide thing no matter who is doing it.

In any event... truth be told the best thing the Aiel could have done after the war ended...as hinted about in the visions... is all go home. What's the point of their hanging around in the wetlands? Its just tinder waiting for a spark to set it off. Ironically they would be much better if the "peace" rand made between the clans ended too heh. Though I suppose in keeping with the theme of the books Jordan/Sanderson wont let the Aiel just turn back time and go back as they were. But that doesnt mean they cant go back to the three-fold land and get some new purpose.

But either way give them some purpose i suppose and send them home.

That and/or deal with the seanchan.

[Poobah]

:rolleyes: I'm not getting into this discussion again. Whether you think authors are eeeevil for discussing their secondary worlds or not, they do, and those things do matter in discussions, and do so across several series.

No, she was completely right. Unless you can show me some evidence that the Bloodknives were posing as Aes Sedai, there's no way they fit. As her dream clearly shows, the eaglets believe the snake is one of them (AS believing Danelle was one of them), whereas she actually was not. That Bloodknives were killing Aes Sedai at the same time is a coincidence, not a negation of Egwene's interpretation of the Dream.

lalalal death of the author, not canon if it isn't in the text. I don't regard writers as evil for discussing their secondary worlds, but I regard fans as foolish for putting their words on pedestals and treating them as written in mile high letters of fire and / or diamond, and I would say the writer himself is foolish if he believes this. Try reading Asimov's "The Immortal Bard" and I know there's an anecdote of his somewhere where he says he told someone their interpretation of his story was wrong he he was told something to the effect of "what makes you think your opinion on what you wrote is right?" You're just going to have to deal with my opinion on this if you want to discuss stuff with me, because while I'm sure there are a billion and one quotations from Jordan stating various stuff that never made it into the books on various subjects which you can find and quote I won't regard them as anything more than secondary sources which while they might be interesting are not definitive.

The writer comments only matter in discussions in various fantasy series because people chose to privilege them. Any critic is entitled to his or her interpretation. Dumbledore isn't gay unless there's evidence within the text pointing to this... which there isn't, but nor is there any evidence to suggest he's hetrosexual either so we simply cannot guess, and Rowling is wrong.

I don't think you quite get what I'm saying with Egwene's incorrect interpretation of her dream. First: AS weren't being killed by Mesaana. The Bloodknives were killing AS: all the AS killed were killed by physical force, so the Bloodknives were responsible for all the murders. Second Egwene interpreted the dream to mean that Mesaana was hiding amongst the AS and that she was responsible for killing them. Messy obviously wasn't the murderer, so the interpretation is false. Possibly Messy was the serpent, but her devouring the other eagles cannot refer to her murdering the AS because she didn't murder them.

Having re-read the passage Egwene doesn't directly say in her interpretation of the dream that she believes Messy to be the murderer. Though she says this elsewhere, she doesn't relate that belief to the dream. I'll leave the other paragraph up, however. I want to think about what the serpent devouring the baby eagles means, since it obviously isn't the murders. Also Egwene relates the middle dream to the first one and suggests that the tower which grows the largest is Messaana, believing it to mean that if she doesn't find and kill Messy then something terrible would happen. Could we perhaps conclude then that by killing Messy she averted both those dreams and we needn't worry about trying to pick them apart?

Edit WRT the Seanchan since I see that while posting this that discussion has continued: I think a few facts are wrong - the life of the average Seanchan citizen seems to be depicted as OK in that a good/loyal Seanchan peasant pretty much can guarantee that the Empire will look after them and whatever. Also there is social mobility; the empire's philosophy seems to be to find a place for everyone and use everyone to their absolute potential. Seems like as long as you keep your head down and stay off the radar as just a faceless citizen then you're going to do pretty well by medieval standards in the empire.

On the other hand the empire is ruthlessly brutal beyond all measure, as demonstrated by their dealing with the Aiel in that vision or in other things. They never, ever, ever compromise. They won't just kill someone, they will kill them, kill their family, kill all their servants, burn their houses to the ground, salt the ground and then write them out of all records. Or enslave them all and beat them till they forget their past and become mind as well as body the exact slaves that their new masters want them to be. Also if you step into Seanchan politics your next step could be to the gallows or into slavery. If you're a channeller prepare to either die or for half a millennia of being mind raped.

[Slurktan]

Slurktan, I really think you are missing the point people are trying to make about the Aiel vision. I don't think it is in dispute that in Aviendha's vision, her descendants set themselves on the path of ruin and in that sense they may deserve what is coming to them. It's sad if you've come to like the Aiel, with all the ji'e'toh hijinx and gai'shain and talking about soft wetlanders. Maybe you never really liked them. I don't know. But it's sad that those to follow after the people in the present story - those who are responsible for carrying on the traditions farther through history - come out the way that they do. For all that they have been through, I think they, the Aiel as a collective society that's molded itself into something functional out of the desolation after the Breaking of the World, earned a better fate than that.

Now, of course, what fate I think they have earned and what I would like to see happen with the Aiel are both irrelevant. Still, if you're confused why people would root for the present day Aiel over the present day Seanchan (or any future version of the Seanchan that still prominently features enslaved female channelers, with all individual characteristics essentially mind-raped from them in order to turn them into weapons), then I guess we don't have any common ground in this discussion.

I've never disagreed that it's sad. I think you are misunderstanding me, I've argued that it isn't a "dark" future. It's unfortunate that Rand/Elayne/Aviendha are all dead 20 years later. Presumable from that vision to me, Mat and Perrin are still alive in the 20 years later part. Mat also being in control over the Raven Empire(unless you think Tuon can resist his ta'avarenness that much). So yes I trust Mat far more than I would any Aiel, either Aiel from the future or present.

As for why I'm "confused" I think it's because people are deluding themselves on the Aiel. They are a remarkably xenophobic and racist society that has shown it knows nothing other than war. (It has also shown, for you slavery haters, that it can turn to slavery when dealing with people that aren't Aiel). It has also shown previous to Rand controlling them that they would try genocide (ie treekillers) so they are certainly no better than the Seanchan of the future in that respect.

Compare that to the Seanchan who have a secret police and slavery. It is also a meritocracy, where foreigners are allowed extremely high positions of power, and others can raise themselves to the very highest level based upon personal skill (see Galgan). Yes the slavery is bad to our modern eyes (and in Aviendha's future it is implied that it is not just Women that are collared) however until the Aiel decide to attack they have left the WT and BT alone. That is a significant difference from the Seanchan that are currently in the series. It implies that their society has changed.

[Slurktan]

Interesting stuff, Fionwe. I think I'm probably going to go looking for those Robert Jordan Q & A's that I remember reading a while back.

You might have a point, except that

A)the Seanchan Empire makes the real-historical Roman Empire look like an anarcho-libertarian commune by comparison (and yes, it is far worse), and

B)we were comparing the Seanchan rule to the existing nations before they showed up. And I can confidently say that the coastal nations of Randland were much better off before the Seanchan showed up with their 900-year-old land claim. At the very least, they didn't have the burden of supporting the Seanchan forces, or have to suffer the Seanchan pulling aside and checking every single one of their women for channeling capability and possible enslavement.

I'm not sure I'm reading your first part correctly but are you saying you think the Roman Empire treated people in general better than the Seanchan do? Seriously?

As for B. Tarabon was in civil war, Amadicia controlled by a fascist military group worse than the Seanchan, and Altara controlled nothing other than Ebou Dar. Explain how those countries were "better" before the Seanchan came along.

[Poobah]

Presumable from that vision to me, Mat and Perrin are still alive in the 20 years later part. Mat also being in control over the Raven Empire(unless you think Tuon can resist his ta'avarenness that much). So yes I trust Mat far more than I would any Aiel, either Aiel from the future or present.

Tuon is clearly stated in the 20 years later part to be dead. Which presumably means Mat is also dead.

[Slurktan]

Tuon is clearly stated in the 20 years later part to be dead. Which presumably means Mat is also dead.

She is? Must have missed it.

[OsRavan]

The seanchan not invading for 20 years does not mean they have changed their colors. Thats not a long time considering.

1) Their homeland is in chaos. The initial years post war likely had to be dealt with that.

2)I'm sure when Tuon was around for a chunk of those years Mat was an influence on not invading.

3) The Seanchan arent stupid either. And take their time to prepare. Look at how long they built up their return. The Aiel *alone* basically had a stalemate with the full seanchan empire for what? 30 years roughly before the other nations got involved. At the time they trick Andor to joining the war can still clearly go either way. After decades of fighting its a stalemate. And while Andor et-all joining ironically was what allowed the Seanchan to win the war and tip the balance.... on paper you would think the opposite (the aiel clearly do.) In other words.... the balance of power if the Seanchan went in offensively against the Aiel (thus drawing in andor et all) would appear on paper to be against the Seanchan. Hence their playing it cool.

I expect war was coming eventually no matter who started it. The Aiel just stuck their necks out first.

But yeah... i'm sure part of the drastic seanchan response to the Aiel has to in fact to do with how close the Aiel came to winning and how long and difficult it was to break them.

[Spastic Plastic]

I haven't read the Brandon Sanderson WOT books yet, but I've heard they're far superior to Jordan's. I only read The Eye Of The World, and it was embarrassingly bad.

[Poobah]

She is? Must have missed it.

In the 20 years forward bit they say something to the effect of "if only the old empress were still here, we nearly had things patched up with her".

Here:

""If only the Seanchan Empress..." Ronam shook his head, and she knew what he was thinking. The old empress, the one who had ruled during the days of the last battle, had been considered a woman of honor by Ronam's father [Rhuarc]. An understanding had nearly been reached with her. But many years had passed sincce her rule."

[Poobah]

3) The Seanchan arent stupid either. And take their time to prepare. Look at how long they built up their return. The Aiel *alone* basically had a stalemate with the full seanchan empire for what? 30 years roughly before the other nations got involved. At the time they trick Andor to joining the war can still clearly go either way. After decades of fighting its a stalemate. And while Andor et-all joining ironically was what allowed the Seanchan to win the war and tip the balance.... on paper you would think the opposite (the aiel clearly do.) In other words.... the balance of power if the Seanchan went in offensively against the Aiel (thus drawing in andor et all) would appear on paper to be against the Seanchan. Hence their playing it cool.

The point is made that as soon as the other nations enter the war (and break the peace) the Seanchan are free to attack them since the truce is broken, and this means they can gain many more channellers particularly to use as weapons to fight their war.

"The real turning point in the war had been the entry of the other nations. After that the Seanchan had been able to sieze wetlander peoples and cull more channelers from their ranks."

[OsRavan]

Correct but thats with hindsight Poobah. Obviously. Otherwise the AIel wouldnt have tried to get the other nations involved.

what im saying is on paper you have the aiel and seanchan in a super death struggle thats dead even. Neither side winning. Then you have a bunch of other nations that are decently powerful. *logic* tells you if the other nations join the aiel the Aiel win.

Obviously thats not what happened. As we saw. Things dont always happen logically. But im saying if the seanchan looked at the landscape and saw the aiel being close to their equals and several other powerful nations existing as well... the smart move is not to go on the offensive.

[Spring Bass]

I'm not sure I'm reading your first part correctly but are you saying you think the Roman Empire treated people in general better than the Seanchan do? Seriously?

Yes. How much do you actually know about the Roman Empire? It was an autocracy, but there was also a significant amount of local control (particularly at the city and town level), and while slavery was extensive, there was never anything like the nearly-totalitarian, super-rigid hierarchy and state that characterizes the Seanchan. I'd vastly prefer living in the Roman Empire in its peak, over living in the Seanchan Empire.

As for the places you mentioned, I'd question whether the Children of the Light were worse than the Seanchan, and the Altarans didn't seem too bad off for their considerable local autonomy. I'll give you Tarabon.

[Slurktan]

Yes. How much do you actually know about the Roman Empire? It was an autocracy, but there was also a significant amount of local control (particularly at the city and town level), and while slavery was extensive, there was never anything like the nearly-totalitarian, super-rigid hierarchy and state that characterizes the Seanchan. I'd vastly prefer living in the Roman Empire in its peak, over living in the Seanchan Empire.

As for the places you mentioned, I'd question whether the Children of the Light were worse than the Seanchan, and the Altarans didn't seem too bad off for their considerable local autonomy. I'll give you Tarabon.

In case you haven't noticed the Seanchan hand out a significant amount of local control. Take a look at Suroth & Turak pre-Empress assassination or the guy running the Tea factory in KoD for example. So I honestly am not sure where you are going with that. But it seems that your opinion on this is put out by your own personal preference for a type of government and doesn't take at all into account general quality of life where it is much, much, much higher in the Seanchan Empire particularly for non Seanchan/non Roman. I think that's weird but that may be the socialist in me.

And you think killing every Aes Sedai outright without remorse is better than enslaving them in order to secure one's country? You think the sham authority granted to the King of Amadicia by the Whitecloaks is better than that given to say King Beslan?

EDIT: Sidenote I was just thinking of due to OsRavan's comments. Compare the Seanchan vs Aiel of Aviendha's future to Rome vs. Carthage.

[Slurktan]

In the 20 years forward bit they say something to the effect of "if only the old empress were still here, we nearly had things patched up with her".

Here:

""If only the Seanchan Empress..." Ronam shook his head, and she knew what he was thinking. The old empress, the one who had ruled during the days of the last battle, had been considered a woman of honor by Ronam's father [Rhuarc]. An understanding had nearly been reached with her. But many years had passed sincce her rule."

Ah yes thanks! I'd still think Mat is running around but that's probably just me.

Brings me to a completely unrelated thought but what killed all the presumed long lived characters after the LB? Tuon can channel and has through a link so she should have an Aes Sedai lifespan(one who hasn't been binded). Elayne is dead, Aviendha is dead etc. Seems rather weird as all should have lived beyond the LB(perhaps not Elayne if her children are born during). Also is it mentioned that Elayne's kids are ruling Cairhien as well? I don't have my book handy and I can't remember.