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The SmilingKnight

New trailer and stuff

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"The Smiling Knight" is an apt handle for you. So you're pissed about how Robert looks... big deal. Stop taking it out on posters. Sean Bean looks nothing like Ned Stark, IMO it should be a short actor with no beard and short black hair. Why not complain about that?

Tbf Ned's physical characteristics are not central to his character and personality the way others are and Sean Bean's demeanour, look and voice encapsulates a lot of the core elements of Ned's character. For example, if i was to describe every character from the books in a paragraph or even a sentence when it came to Ned i doubt i would say anything about how he looks.

That's why i have issue with Lena Headey as Cersei. She is an obviously strong woman and she can't help but radiate that even in stills whereas GRRM wrote her to have the very opposite appearance. I think that apparent vulnerability and facade of the fairytale princess is so important to how the rest of the world sees her and provides the contrast to how she truly is. Lena looks too capable of being like Cersei is to be Cersei if you know what i mean.

meh, too late now anyway and since they've already added at least one Cersei scene maybe they're aiming to portray her slightly differently (at least dye her eyebrows to soften her face a bit though ;p ). I'm sure it'll be brilliant.

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That's interesting. Cersei is never depicted as anything but a lionness among women, so to speak, in my own vision of her as I read the books. The only time she was ever "soft" and not seeming capable (at least in her own mind) is in ACoK, when she bursts into tears over her fears for Jaime, her children, and her self.

But that's the thing about reading, there's an infinite number of ways to envision the exact same thing. When a visual depiction concretizes it, it gives us all something to respond to.

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Yeah, I never saw Cersei as seeming innocent or demure or fairy-tale princess like. She was stubborn and headstrong and defiant from first encounter.

As I see it - there is only 1 person who has a genuine, valid, vested interest in how this turns out, and as GRRM seems more than happy with how his baby is being 'brought to life' for our enjoyment, then I for one am happy enough to trust his judgement.

Disagreed. I also have a "genuine, valid, vested interest" in how this turns out. The success of this show could mean the opening of new doors for programming that otherwise would never have had a shot. I think everyone here has a genuine and valid interest in what this winds up as. Perhaps for different reasons than Martin himself, but still genuine.

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The key word in that sentence would be 'is'. That implies there's only one true version of the character, the one you got from reading the books.

Which implies there are other versions of the character that exist in the books?

Well, if thats true and im simply imagining things i think someone could provide me with proof, right?

But inherent in the idea of an adaptation is the fact that there are differences. This is another version of the story. In this version, Robert is not so physically tall or imposing as in the version in the books: just as in this version, Will is executed instead of Gared (at a different place, too), Dany has green eyes rather than violet ones, and Jon Arryn's son is called Robin.

Obviously.

People are certainly entitled to say that they don't like these changes.

Am I?

But it's also fair to say that to complain about them simply because they are changes is a bit daft.

What really daft is accusing people of "complaining simply because they are changes". Its not only a strawman argument and insulting but its also a cheap way of attempt to devalue any argument a person might have, or indeed to prevent or bully a person into not expressing his or her opinion to which they are supposedly entitled to.

You need to recognise that a TV adaptation is going to be a slightly different version, for a whole host of reasons. Different format, practical issues, the creative input and interpretation of many different people. Better to accept that as an inevitable fact than to oppose it on principle and complain about it endlessly, and pointlessly.

You need to recognize that not everyone is a clueless child in dire need of patronizing and condescension just because it would fit the rest of your non-argument and insults.

Apart from that: Not every change is a good one simply because its a change.

And as long as this board doesnt have an express rule forbidding me to voice negative opinions and critique of the series i will write and think whatever the hell i want.

Arguably, some of my opinions and critiques were rash, based on very little evidence (too short out of context clips) or not voiced very well, (i actually find the face of the actor thats playing Jon chubby aside from his pathetic expression which we will be forced to watch for who knows how long as his main emote), and i can accept some corrections, but generally i find these few feeble attempts of group bullying kneejerk psychology ridiculous, shallow, poorly worded and thought out and not worth of any consideration.

Hopefully i wont need to repeat this again.

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That's interesting. Cersei is never depicted as anything but a lionness among women, so to speak, in my own vision of her as I read the books. The only time she was ever "soft" and not seeming capable (at least in her own mind) is in ACoK, when she bursts into tears over her fears for Jaime, her children, and her self.

But that's the thing about reading, there's an infinite number of ways to envision the exact same thing. When a visual depiction concretizes it, it gives us all something to respond to.

I would agree with this impression of Cersei but for that meeting with Ned in the gardens. I dont think you can argue that she didnt show her softer side there, even if you could argue it was intentional (which i wouldnt totally agree to) - and it seems to me this short clip of her and Ned is precisely from that scene so overall it fits without distorting her character generally.

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I think Lena Hedley is perfect as Cersei. I even made the suggestion to a friend of mine, thinking there was absolutely no shot to get her because of Sarah Connor Chronicles. Her face is amazing, her expressions, and the lilt of her voice is absolutely spot on. I like her hair (wig?) a lot and I am betting she's going to knock everyone's socks off. I have also never looked at the character as anything like a fairytale princess.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, so far everyone except Dany and Catelyn look almost sinfully like I imagined. I actually was a big fan of both the Tazmin Merchant and Jennifer Ehle casting, as they were exactly how "I" pictured. But I have every confidence that the changes made were for the better and the two women that they've selected will be great. Bringing these characters to life on screen, it is so much more important to have the right talent and chemistry than the right eye color. They have paid attention to the book and have tried to do the best with the fantastical descriptions that Martin provided and got everything important down (dwarf, insanely tall men, fat guys, kids, pretty women, blond hair, etc). I'm way more concerned about the direction of the story than the aesthetics of the people on the screen. But knowing HBO's track record, it may be slightly off the source material but it will be great in and of itself and provide new canon, new excitement, and hopefully entertain a lot of people.

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Which implies there are other versions of the character that exist in the books?

Well, there's a different version in everyone's head, to some degree. We see that in the above discussion about Cersei, for example, or Tyrion, Dany, and yes, Robert.

But more directly, the bit about 'in the books' is the point: the version in the books is not necessarily the version in the series.

What really daft is accusing people of "complaining simply because they are changes". Its not only a strawman argument and insulting but its also a cheap way of attempt to devalue any argument a person might have, or indeed to prevent or bully a person into not expressing his or her opinion to which they are supposedly entitled to.

It's also a bit daft to demand that people don't 'devalue' arguments that haven't actually been made. (Unless you've made some substantial argument about why this is a really important change, in which case I confess I missed it.)

As for 'bullying', if you think someone saying something you did is 'a bit daft' counts as bullying (or indeed insults), you're probably in quite a small minority, I'm afraid. As you don't seem shy of expressing your opinion, I'll assume that was just a bit of bluster.

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I'm sure it's not the scene in question. We see it being filmed in the set decoration Artisans video. Ned shows no sort of injury at all, such as a broken leg. In any case, Jane Espenson -- who wrote Episode 7 where, I believe, the Godwood conversation is likely to take place -- says that none of her scenes are in the teaser.

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All right. Last word on some of this stuff:

Lets stop the meta discussion about talking about other people or who said what to who. Discuss the topic at hand. Do not stray.

Do _not_ discuss whether you have someone on ignore, or are considering putting someone on ignore, or how you aren't planning to put someone on ignore. It's a private decision you make, so please keep it a private decision.

Want to address someone about something other than the topic? Then please use the PM system, or find an appropriate thread.

There. No more thread hijacking, please.

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Interesting discussion about soft Cersei v strong Cersei since some people think she seems too soft in the TV series, while others think she appears too strong. I prefer labelling Cersei charming or fierce myself. Her interactions with Robert were full of ferocity. With Sansa she was more charming. With Ned she tried charm but ended up bearing her claws.

I think soft and strong can be misinterpreted. Cersei can be nasty but that doesn't make her strong. Tywin knew when to be violent and when to forgive. That's what made him so dangerous. Similarly, Cersei could be charming but she was then at her most dangerous.

The more I think of Cersei the more fun I think Lena Headey could have with the role. We readers have never reached a consenus on her, so the producers have the ability to take her in many different directions. The opening glimpse is very promising.

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I'm sure it's not the scene in question. We see it being filmed in the set decoration Artisans video. Ned shows no sort of injury at all, such as a broken leg. In any case, Jane Espenson -- who wrote Episode 7 where, I believe, the Godwood conversation is likely to take place -- says that none of her scenes are in the teaser.

Then they are changing things considerably.

From little i could see it seemed a warmer climate so i guessed it was in Kingslanding and the only time those two talked like that was that time in the garden.

She does seem like shes trying to use her... other side on him, subtly, while they banter.

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Regarding the whole Will vs. Gared in the beheading scene, I can think of several reasons why the change might have been made:

  • Scheduling - the actor playing Will might have had more time available for the reshoot
  • The look and/or performance of the actor - the guy playing Will has a great, interesting face. He brings a very haunted quality to his performance that they may have liked better for this scene.
  • It makes more sense that Will would get away and not Gared - Will is young, fast and one of the best trackers the Nightswatch has. Though Gared is a very able veteran, he is getting up there in years and it's maybe less likely he could escape the Others attack.

In terms of the story, it really makes no difference which one of them escapes the attack - it only matters that one of them does (and probably that it's not Waymar Royce, because the great ranging later is done in part to find him as well as Benjen).

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Ned is in King's Landing for some months. He must have interacted with Cersei on any number of occasions. I'd say this scene represents one of those occasions, a verbal clash that simply didn't make it into GRRM's final edit of AGoT, so to speak. ;)

That's my guess, anyways -- a plausible scene invented by the writers to give Ned and Cersei more interactions.

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I'd say this scene represents one of those occasions, a verbal clash that simply didn't make it into GRRM's final edit of AGoT, so to speak.

Right. Whether it is a new scene or not, it is a change since that conversation doesn't appear in the books. It doesn't strike me as a considerable change since the story outline isn't altered by that conversation as shown.

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I imagine they'll beef up some of the characters who do not start "heating up" until further in the series: Jaime, Cersei, etc. I mean, for heaven's sake you just hired Nikolaj Coster-Waldau and you don't plan on using him much for a few years? Nonsense . . .

I imagine they'll include a scene or two with Ned and Jaime together, amp up the tension between them, a few more scenes with Ned and Cersei. I don't know, maybe not. But, I certainly wouldn't hire an actor like Coster-Waldau (or Lena Headey) and have them sit around twiddling their thumbs for all of season 1.

While we have various character POVs that progress the story in the books, there is much more going on behind the scenes that we, as the readers, aren't privy to due to the staggered method. I'm certainly not going to poo-poo any attempts to embellish what happens to, let's say, Cersei's character from when we see her through Ned's POV in one chapter to the time we see her again in another character's chapter. I expect the writers and powers-that-be to use this as a means to fill in material.

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What we see of Lena Headey as Cersei seems to include that her inner fire is somewhat hidden behind a cool shell. That really is not how Cersei is depicted in the books. I agree with Ran. Cersei is a lioness. She slashes out at everything she does not like or does not understand.

Actually, the way Polly Walker played Atia in 'Rome' is very much the way I imagined Cersei in the way of acting. She rushes to the wrong conclusions, is (somewhat) motivated by the wish to protect her family and children, and has an unhealthy relationship to the wrong man (who is also manipulated like Jaime from time to time).

Cersei and Atia can behave themselves when social events or 'piety' demand it, but it takes them a lot of energy to do so. It is not the natural way to behave. They see them as the ruler of their, or actually, the world, and they do whatever they want to accomplish their goals.

It does not seem that Headey's take on Cersei is that aggressive, but on the other hand, I can't see Cersei being the nice girl when she has sex with Jaime. The way Cersei is shown in the teasers seems to indicate that they might want to surprise the audience when Cersei turns out to be the villainess rather than the hero.

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This...

What we see of Lena Headey as Cersei seems to include that her inner fire is somewhat hidden behind a cool shell.

And this...

The way Cersei is shown in the teasers seems to indicate that they might want to surprise the audience when Cersei turns out to be the villainess rather than the hero.

Certainly possible. We see way too little of Cersei to get even a half-decent read on her. She certainly will find herself in a number of tense moments in GoT, where she'll probably have to act differently.

I imagine they'll beef up some of the characters who do not start "heating up" until further in the series: Jaime, Cersei, etc. I mean, for heaven's sake you just hired Nikolaj Coster-Waldau and you don't plan on using him much for a few years?

We know there are extra Jaime scenes with Tyrion and Ned in E1. And we now know there is probably extra Cersei scenes also. The real question regarding Jaime is what they will do with him in any S2. Interestingly, GRRM did talk about how complicated Nikolaj Coster-Waldau's contract was because he barely features in the proposed S2 but he becomes really prominent in S3 again. That's not typical TV casting. (There are options in the contracts for subsequent seasons. Obviously not definite).

But as you say, easy enough to keep throwing extra scenes by way of Cersei.

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I debated posting a post like this because I told myself it's best to swear off the topic, but I guess I am suffering from a momentary lapse in judgment ;) I don't doubt that part of the criticism against HBO's handling of Cat is, er, what we might call "fanboyism", but there's also simple purism; when it comes to changes in an adaptation some fans are of the "Why not?" school of thought, while others are "Why?".

A third reason seems to specifically be stereotype issues. It really seems to me like women are more anxious about Cat than men, which suggests it isn't only about having a sex object. Cat's main contributions to the plot derive from her wife/mom role, so it's easy to reduce her personality to a wife/mom stereotype. There's a lot of comparisons I've read regarding her and Cersei, and earlier in the thread someone felt that the promo clip makes Catelyn come off as a clingy wife type. It's just an intuition based on a whole lot of spread out commentary, but I feel there's a lot of stereotype related baggage (which may or may not be justified). My only point is that it's not just the desire for a hot 19 year old trophy wife.

Obviously, we've only had a little taste of the series, and please believe that I'm all for "wait and see". If I may, though, and personally speaking this is my bigger issue much more than the casting itself, I would like to point out that HBO is giving Headey a lot more attention than Fairley, and I get why, she's famous and conventionally telegenic, and Cersei is The Sexy One. But Cat is by far the higher quality character and much, much more important to have in terms of female presence on television (Cersei's entertaining and important to the plot, but frankly she's a totally familiar stock stereotype), plus Cersei may be major but Cat's a freaking POV character. So in a sense whatever non-superficial qualities Catelyn has going for her is still not enough to merit much attention, especially given what seems like Cersei's relatively expanded role, and I can't help but find it disappointing, if admittedly prematurely. Of all the female characters to choose to beef up, Cersei is the most Hollywood status quo (and of course the added female characters are sex factor additions like Ros the Whore). I'm not saying a different actress in the role would've made a difference, but the whole picture makes it harder to give HBO the props Padraig suggested. Perhaps those who've kept up more closely with the production could give me something else to chew on though.

On the topic of Cersei, in the books I don't think she came off as cool, as in icy, merely sweet and graceful in terms of her features. But I didn't think Lena Headey came off as necessarily cool either, personally.

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We know there are extra Jaime scenes with Tyrion and Ned in E1. And we now know there is probably extra Cersei scenes also. The real question regarding Jaime is what they will do with him in any S2. Interestingly, GRRM did talk about how complicated Nikolaj Coster-Waldau's contract was because he barely features in the proposed S2 but he becomes really prominent in S3 again. That's not typical TV casting. (There are options in the contracts for subsequent seasons. Obviously not definite).

But as you say, easy enough to keep throwing extra scenes by way of Cersei.

Really? I did not know that GRRM said that. Interesting. It means he has time off to work on other projects, provided the series gets picked up for a season 2 AND a season 3. I'm trying to remember when Jaime gets captured. They could, feasibly, show him engaging in battle (and show some of Robb's part of the story as well) if he is not caught until midway through season 2 (for example). I just don't recall.

Thinking out loud, but I wonder what the ratings will have to be for the series to get a green light for season 2 (and hopefully subsequent seasons).

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The trailer was amazing especially the beginning with Bran and Eddard I really can not wait for this series. :drool:

I wonder about the ratings to and as someone who has absolutely know idea what he's talking about I'd guess that with decent audience it will get a second season Rome did and it cost way more than this. I do wonder if it might be tempting for the producers to cut it off at the third season as it seems a good place to stop with the plot. But really even one is amazing so three would be good of course all seven would be better...

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