SFF author Joel Rosenberg arrested after carryin gun into a police department

[Lord O' Bones]

I would love to know how many citizens averting crime with a fire-arm were not wearing government suits at one point in their lives.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

Has anyone here even heard of a private citizen intervening and making things worse? I couldn't find anything through Google. It seems to me people are letting paranoia and prejudice make up scenarios in their mind that really never happen.

[alguien]

What regulations?

Stricter buying protocol or wait times at gun shows? More in-depth background checks? Longer waiting times? Depends. Gun laws vary a lot state to state. And most hand gun crime caused in cities like mine were with guns purchased from States where its significantly easier to buy them.

And a significant number of these owners are safe users. Did you miss my link earlier where private firearms prevent 2.5 million crimes per year? Far dwarfing the firearm homicides per year, many of which are committed with illegally owned weapons anyway.

Did you mean the Kleck study done back in like 1991? The one based on a population size of 5000 people? Because according to another source,

Hemenway concludes that under reasonable assumptions of random errors in sampling, because of the rarity of the event, the 2.5 million figure should be considered only as the top end of a 0-2.5 million confidence interval, suggesting a highly unreliable result that is likely a great overestimate, with the true figure 10 times, or more, less.

Why is that insane? A bow and arrow will kill you just as dead as anything else. And why don't you tell me which two of these are toy guns.

How is it not messed up on multiple levels? First of all, I'd love to see the Rambo woman running around with a potentially lethal bow and arrow. Secondly, we have no idea what her toy gun looked like. I do agree that its scary that toy guns can be made to look so much like the real thing, and if that was the case, their reactions were justified. Third, its telling that you ignored my comment about the police. Had just the police been involved with shooting this woman, I'd be curious to read your reaction then.

[Balefont]

Has anyone here even heard of a private citizen intervening and making things worse? I couldn't find anything through Google. It seems to me people are letting paranoia and prejudice make up scenarios in their mind that really never happen.

I'm not talking necessarily about just intervening. I'm saying I don't think intervening with a gun is necessary as the very act of intervening on some level seems to work because bad guys don't like getting caught. By bringing attention to them, they are less likely to follow through or continue the act.

Unless, of course, you need to have the gun to feel confident enough to get involved. If that's the case, I will refrain from comments about gun owners being pussies without their heat. :ph34r:

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

Stricter buying protocol or wait times at gun shows? More in-depth background checks? Longer waiting times? Depends. Gun laws vary a lot state to state. And most hand gun crime caused in cities like mine were with guns purchased from States where its significantly easier to buy them.

Have these been shown to reduce gun crime when implemented?

Did you mean the Kleck study done back in like 1991? The one based on a population size of 5000 people? Because according to another source,

Experts have competing opinions. Shocking.

How is it not messed up on multiple levels? First of all, I'd love to see the Rambo woman running around with a potentially lethal bow and arrow. Secondly, we have no idea what her toy gun looked like. I do agree that its scary that toy guns can be made to look so much like the real thing, and if that was the case, their reactions were justified. Third, its telling that you ignored my comment about the police. Had just the police been involved with shooting this woman, I'd be curious to read your reaction.

I wouldn't like to see that. Bows and arrows are deadly and messy.

I've actually written a letter to the editor in the past defending a police officer in this circumstance. A guy in my hometown was wandering around a grocery story hitting people with a lead pipe. Cop showed up, he started swinging at the cop and the cop shot him. Open and shut case really.

ETA:

I'm not talking necessarily about just intervening. I'm saying I don't think intervening with a gun is necessary as the very act of intervening on some level seems to work because bad guys don't like getting caught. By bringing attention to them, they are less likely to follow through or continue the act.

Have you heard on anyone intervening with a gun that made things worse? That is what I was looking for and I couldn't find it.

Unless, of course, you need to have the gun to feel confident enough to get involved. If that's the case, I will refrain from comments about gun owners being pussies without their heat.

I've had as much martial arts training as you have. I have been in a circumstance in which a friend who was carrying got into an altercation. He removed his firearm, unloaded it, handed it to another friend and proceeded with the fight. I hope we meet your minimum standard for non-pussification.

[Lord O' Bones]

Unless, of course, you need to have the gun to feel confident enough to get involved. If that's the case, I will refrain from comments about gun owners being pussies without their heat. :ph34r:

:lol:

[Balefont]

And then you have this case where the mentally ill guy was shot 10 times when he allegedly went after the cops with an 8 inch steak knife.

Now, I would probably have shot him, too. However, I would hope I could refrain from discharging multiple bullets against an assailant armed with a short-range weapon such as a knife. Maybe aim low at the legs.

[Werthead]

Not really, if my point was that these guns could better regulated.

Obviously you cannot remove guns from the American populace, since law-abiding citizens would hand guns in and criminals wouldn't, and you're just removing weapons from people who (by and large) wouldn't cause problems with them in the first place and want them for self-defence.

In short, the genie is out of the bottle and cannot be put back in. In addition, the ratio of guns-to-people in Canada is even higher than in the USA, but the number of gun-related crime is far lower as a percentage. That suggests cultural and education differences also play a role. An analysis of the differences in regulation, training and permits and so on between the two countries might be illuminating: in Canada can you get a free gun when you open a bank account, for example?

On the other side of the coin, relaxing gun laws in say the UK where there are very, very few gun-related crimes now would be beyond mentally retarded. The genie is still in the bottle here (where the main problem is with knives instead, and nowhere near as large an issue).

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

Now, I would probably have shot him, too. However, I would hope I could refrain from discharging multiple bullets against an assailant armed with a short-range weapon such as a knife. Maybe aim low at the legs.

Dumbest comment of the thread. I will discount all future opinions on firearms from you.

[alguien]

Have these been shown to reduce gun crime when implemented?

Well like I said, the majority of gun crime in cities comes from guns purchased out of state. So its hard to say.

Experts have competing opinions. Shocking.

Really? That's it?

I mean, the one thing I've found whenever I've researched gun control is that both sides can produce a lot of stats (that are often contradictory).

I wouldn't like to see that. Bows and arrows are deadly and messy.

Yes, I've watched Rambo as well. :rolleyes:

I've actually written a letter to the editor in the past defending a police officer in this circumstance. A guy in my hometown was wandering around a grocery story hitting people with a lead pipe. Cop showed up, he started swinging at the cop and the cop shot him. Open and shut case really.

Fair enough. This flies in the face of your usual rhetoric about police officers but I can respect that you're discerning enough to look into nuances of individual cases at hand.

[Lord O' Bones]

Now, I would probably have shot him, too. However, I would hope I could refrain from discharging multiple bullets against an assailant armed with a short-range weapon such as a knife. Maybe aim low at the legs.

You can't really do that. If you decide to pull the trigger, you've decided to take a life. Don't fuck that up and help no one.

[Ixodes]

Now, I would probably have shot him, too. However, I would hope I could refrain from discharging multiple bullets against an assailant armed with a short-range weapon such as a knife. Maybe aim low at the legs.

Tueller drill.

Essentially, with training, it takes up to 1.5 seconds to draw a holstered gun and put two shots into a target at 7 yards. An attacker with a knife can cover 7 yards within 1.5 seconds. In other words, if you have a person within 21 feet of you they can be stabbing you in the same time a trained person can shoot them.

Long story short, the only time a handgun will prevent injury against a determined person wielding a knife is if you can incapacitate them within 1.5 seconds. This means a vital shot in the center mass, spine, or head. With the high stress, adrenaline dump, and inherent inaccuracy of handguns, it is next to impossible to selectively pick a non-lethal shot to stop someone who is intent on hurting you at close range. If someone is charging you with a blade you've got less than 1.5 seconds.

I learned this when I took a handgun self defense class run by the head of the county SWAT team. If you really want to learn how to use a handgun (or anything else for that matter) to protect yourself, you need training.

[Lord O' Bones]

If you really want to learn how to use a handgun (or anything else for that matter) to protect yourself, you need training.

1,000 times, yes.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

I learned this when I took a handgun self defense class run by the head of the county SWAT team. If you really want to learn how to use a handgun (or anything else for that matter) to protect yourself, you need training.

Once it's a bit warmer some friends and I are headed up north for some tactical pistol and tactical rifle classes (same stuff SWAT and military urban combat people get). I can't wait.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Bale,

If you have cause to use a firearm aim for center mass. If you miss there's no telling where that bullet will end up. If you aim low there's a much better chance of missing and a resulting ricochte.

[Balefont]

Dumbest comment of the thread. I will discount all future opinions on firearms from you.

'Splain?

ETA: ah, gotcha, Ix and Scott. Thank you for the information instead of taking the opportunity to be an ass like someone else. :)

[Lord O' Bones]

'Splain?

I already did. But not so harshly.

ETA: Also, Scot tried, but not quite.

You aim for center of mass to kill, not to be more accurate. And if you are accurate and hit a thigh, this ain't Hollywood and a thigh shot is almost as immediately deadly.

Ricochets shouldn't even matter in the thought process. But they do happen.

[Balefont]

I already did. But not so harshly.

Yes, thank you too, Bonsey. :kiss:

[blasted_saber]

For those doubting bow and arrows as deadly weapons, a man was shot and killed in a library in downtown Toronto about two weeks ago with a crossbow. By his own son.

http://www.ottawasun.com/news/canada/2010/12/03/16413071.html

[Lord O' Bones]

Yes, thank you too, Bonsey. :kiss:

I did edit.