SFF author Joel Rosenberg arrested after carryin gun into a police department

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Old Nan,

I agree we have the right to defend ourselves when we are threatened. That doesn't mean we should delight in or look forward to taking another's life.

MC's point, one that is very well made, is that he could have, under "stand your ground" legislation legitimately have killed someone who was drunk, made a mistake about which house he'd entered, and posed no threat to either MC, his ex-wife, or MC's stuff. The guy had walked into the wrong apartment. That shouldn't justify this kid losing his life.

[Ixodes]

Since there's a lot of unclear boundaries here, what are the odds of this Rosenberg fellow having arranged this in order to clear them out? Get a test case etc.?

This is why he showed up with a hidden camera. He got the response he was hoping to get. In the book Rosenberg wrote about carrying a pistol in Minnesota, he writes very clearly and extensively how to avoid the exact situation he created.

[MercenaryChef]

OK, I get that this is your gut feeling, but I was hoping for some kind of ethical justification.

ethical justification.

ethically killing someone for making a mistake is wrong. is that too difficult to understand for you?

i have just read that under the state law i was in (oregon) i would have likely been able to kill him legally.

161.219 Limitations on use of deadly physical force in defense of a person. Notwithstanding the provisions of ORS 161.209, a person is not justified in using deadly physical force upon another person unless the person reasonably believes that the other person is:

(1) Committing or attempting to commit a felony involving the use or threatened imminent use of physical force against a person; or

(2) Committing or attempting to commit a burglary in a dwelling; or

(3) Using or about to use unlawful deadly physical force against a person. [1971 c.743 §23]

if my defense attorney could prove that his rooting around for a beer in my fridge constituted burglary of my dwelling i would be in the clear. however, that does not make what i did right. legality and actually morally right are not one in the same. we have had all manners of laws in this nation and all others that may not have been morally and ethically right.

and if you would in fact kill someone if you were in the same situation there is likely something very very wrong with you.

[turinturambar]

ethical justification.

ethically killing someone for making a mistake is wrong.

Well, there are mistakes and then there are mistakes. Accidental mistakes, yes it would most definitely be wrong. A mistake of bad judgement.....well I'm just arguing semantics now so that's kind of useless. Anyways, I agree with you. Killing an intruder is only excuseable if there's reason to believe that intruder poses a threat. But that's something that is different for all people. The same way that accidentally intruding on a Badger's Den will result in a bad day for you, if you accidently stumble in somebody else's apartment and slip in bed(this happened to me once....drunk person I didn't know thought my bedroom was his and laid beside me and passed out....) or rummage through their fridge it's expected that somebody may flip out with fear. And although that person doesn't deserve a beat down(or hole in his/her gut) and I feel sorry for that person, ultimately they are at fault for being a fucking idiot.

And for what it's worth, I do have my semi auto 12 gauge but I would likely never use it. It's in my closet, more of an heirloom or prized possession that I may take out once very 3 years and destroy some cans with my best friend. I've had three attempted break-ins over the last 4 years and I didn't grab my gun for any of them. Rather I climbed out of bed and grabbed my sword as my first measure of self-defense. One time the perp ran as soon as I turned a light on. Another time I came into the living room and yelled through the window that I was going to grab my 12 and that was enough incentive for that person to run off(threat of the gun was good enough). The third time I walked into the living room with my sword in hand and the perp shined his flashlight on me yelled "holy fuck" and ran off. I don't know if it was the fact I had a sword in my hand that scared him off or that I was naked with a sword in my hand that scared him off :leaving: . hehe, anyways I think from my experiences I've learned that ya most likely an intruder has no intention of harming me and after the 2nd time I just wasn't scared anymore. However, as Tormund mentioned....you can't make the bet that an intruder doesn't have the intention to harm you, because sometimes they do and that's a bet I don't want to lose. So ya, I have my last resort and I wouldn't be afraid to use it if the unlikely event happens that it's me or him.

[Balefont]

approximately 1000 people are shot in the states and canada every year in hunting accidents. so yeah, fuck their rights and freedoms.

Here's just one of them.

I'm of a to-each-their-own mentality when it comes to personal gun ownership. However, pray tell, what is the point of walking around armed with a gun all the time? What is it for? Say someone assaults you on the street and you are carrying a gun, can you really use it against the assailant? To what extent?

I know these questions seem like they would have simple enough answers but on further examination, I think the answers are anything but simple. What is the point?

Regarding the O/P, it seems that Mr. Rosenberg is messing with the biggest gang on the block and he is well within his rights to do so.

[Balefont]

I worry less about my own safety than that of others. I carry a gun (when I do) more to be able to intervene on someone else's behalf than my own.

No matter how valiant this may seem, I don't think it's a strong enough argument to insist on having to carry a gun all the time.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

No matter how valiant this may seem, I don't think it's a strong enough argument to insist on having to carry a gun all the time.

I don't carry a gun all the time. I do carry one often. Bear in mind also my opinion on involving the police in pretty much anything. I don't want or expect anyone else to come to my defense.

[Blaine]

Joel Rosenberg clearly is staying prepared for the day when he gets transported to his gaming world and has to become Karl Cullinane.

Seriously, though, I should've guessed he was a gun nut. I mean, he's one of those guys that introduced gunpowder into his Guardians of the Flame books. No sane fantasy author does that.

[The Progressive]

I worry less about my own safety than that of others. I carry a gun (when I do) more to be able to intervene on someone else's behalf than my own

Getting caught between wannabe-Rambo and armed thugs sure isn't safe for anybody.

Let the professional law enforcement personnel do their job.

I really don't get people, like this Rosenberg douchebag, who want to carry arms openly and isn't on official law enforcement duty ....... what are they trying to prove? that they have erectile dysfunction?

[Swordfish]

i suppose my concern is 'shit starts to go down.' how do you know when this is? for some people that means someone who is not white looks at them in the eye. for other people it means that someone has kicked in the bedroom door while they are sleeping. still others it means someone bumps them in the bar and causes them to spill their red bull and vodka. i am worried about people carrying weapons like guns because of this varied scope of 'shit going down.'

several years ago i could have killed someone. i could have taken a life. if i would have had a gun in my home within my reach i would have taken a life. it was 1am. i was at home with my former wife watching tv. i heard our door open and then close. it was odd to me. as we were the only ones who lived there. yes, i had drank a bit of whisky that night. i got up, confused and walked into my kitchen. kneeling down looking in my fridge was a 20-something lad. i flipped the fuck out. i grabbed my granite mortar from the pestle and started cursing and threatening him. (or so i am told) i had completely blacked out with a fear of my home, ex-wife and myself being in imagined danger. if i had a gun i may well have shot him. i would have gone to jail for a long time. a drunken party goer returning to the wrong apartment and looking for beer in the fridge is hardly cause for self-defense homicide.

my point is i am not that abnormal i am sure. i felt 'shit had gone down.' how many people right now are armed and have the same irrational idea of when 'shit has gone down?'

i will give you the benefit of the doubt and think of you as a clint eastwood level badass who knows the moment that one needs to pull a gun and when you need to just disarm your aggressor with a pithy one-liner.

i am not that guy. i would have been the guy crying in my kitchen as i realized i had just emptied a clip into a kid trying to find a beer.

I'm having a little bit of a hard time reconciling your earlier comment that you're letting the stats be your guide, and this other notion that you carrying a gun would lead to you accidentally shooting someone, which is basically a statistically non existent event.

Shooting yourself, sure. but is there some rash of accidental burglar shootings by people legally carrying that i'm unaware of?

Either way, that's a slightly different issue than the issue of carrying a handgun, since you are already allowed to have guns in your house.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

Getting caught between wannabe-Rambo and armed thugs sure isn't safe for anybody.

Insult aside, getting caught unarmed doesn't help the situation much either

Let the professional law enforcement personnel do their job.

Showing up after the fact to take statements and hopefully someday find the perpetrator? Big help. I'm as good or better a shot than most cops anyway.

I really don't get people, like this Rosenberg douchebag, who want to carry arms openly and isn't on official law enforcement duty ....... what are they trying to prove? that they have erectile dysfunction?

I don't get people who get angry and insulting over the idea that someone might want to arm themselves. What are they trying to prove? That defenselessness is a virtue?

[The Progressive]

Insult aside, getting caught unarmed doesn't help the situation much either

It sure is a hell lot better than escalating the situation.

Showing up after the fact to take statements and hopefully someday find the perpetrator? Big help. I'm as good or better a shot than most cops anyway.

Lol, I have no doubt you are, and I bet that you regularly fight crime on a daily basis as a masked vigilante too.

That defenselessness is a virtue?

I think society has a much bigger problem already if citizens are constantly having to arm and be on defend against other armed citizens.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

It sure is a hell lot better than escalating the situation.

If someone has a gun out on defenseless people, the situation is already escalated.

Lol, I have no doubt you are, and I bet that you regularly fight crime on a daily basis as a masked vigilante too.

quite the opposite actually

I think society has a much bigger problem already if citizens are constantly having to arm and be on defend against other armed citizens.

Hate to be the one to break it to you, but violent crime happens. All the time. Especially in large cities like Phoenix. I imagine most folks buckle their seatbelts when they drive, despite the fact that crashes are relatively rare.

[The Progressive]

Hate to be the one to break it to you, but being hold-up with a gun in broad daylight and in sight of other conveniently armed vigilantes so that a shootout would unfold among trigger-happy wannabe-Rambo and MS13 thugs almost never happens, except in movies made by Antoine Fuqua.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

Hate to be the one to break it to you, but being hold-up with a gun in broad daylight and in sight of other conveniently armed vigilantes so that a shootout would unfold among trigger-happy wannabe-Rambo and MS13 thugs almost never happens, except in movies made by Antoine Fuqua.

What the fuck are you even talking about?

[The Progressive]

Lol, I'm pointing out the over-dramatic bullshit inherent in wannabe vigilantes that throw around comments like: "I worry less about my own safety than that of others. I carry a gun (when I do) more to be able to intervene on someone else's behalf than my own".

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

Lol, I'm pointing out the over-dramatic bullshit inherent in wannabe vigilantes that throw around comments like: "I worry less about my own safety than that of others. I carry a gun (when I do) more to be able to intervene on someone else's behalf than my own".

Cause that totally implies this, and not say, this, or this, or this. Honestly dude, your strawman is made of straw, and rather sad.

[The Progressive]

I suspect he's talking about an LA gang warfare situation...maybe? That's the best I can figure out.

Lol, I try to come up with another scenario, besides the halcyon days of the wild wild west, where people openly carry arms for the stated purpose of preserving the greater public good would be acceptable ......... and came up with that.

I have no doubt that others could be even more imaginative.

[The Progressive]

Cause that totally implies this, and not say, this, or this, or this. Honestly dude, your strawman is made of straw, and rather sad.

Lol, listen tormund, if I could pull up 3 or 4 links about people dying in the street, would you accept that a healthcare mandate is necessary for greater social good?

Yeah, I don't think so.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

Lol, listen tormund, if I could pull up 3 or 4 links about people dying in the street, would you accept that a healthcare mandate is necessary for greater social good?

Yeah, I don't think so.

False equivalency. You entered the debate wielding your ad hominems and your strawmen and stated that the ONLY reason you could think of for people to arm themselves would be to engage in "Rambo-wannabe shootouts." I provided specific counterexamples to your ridiculous claim (which you, obviously, can not back up). If you want to provide specific examples in another debate that's fine. But I doubt if I'll be entering the debate by first insulting you, and then claiming the only reason people could possibly want a healthcare mandate is because they are Brave New World wannabe's who want the government shoving pills down everyone's throat.

TL:DR - weak sauce dude