SFF author Joel Rosenberg arrested after carryin gun into a police department

[The Progressive]

Lol, well clearly when you stated so eloquently that not carry arms is the equivalent of defenselessness, then further burn the strawman by dismissing the argument that the open carry of arms should be limited to professional law enforcement personnel with such comments like "Showing up after the fact to take statements and hopefully someday find the perpetrator? Big help. I'm as good or better a shot than most cops anyway" ....... it's quite obvious who's in love with their self-indulgent fantasy already.

Listen tormund, do I need to find you random links of stories about cops solving crimes to dismiss your nonsense?

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

Lol, well clearly when you stated so eloquently that not carry arms is the equivalent of defenselessness..

A weaponless person has defenses against a person with a weapon? Do tell me about them.

...then further burn the strawman by dismissing the argument that the open carry of arms should be limited to professional law enforcement personnel with such comments like "Showing up after the fact to take statements and hopefully someday find the perpetrator? Big help. I'm as good or better a shot than most cops anyway" ....... it's quite obvious who's in love with their self-indulgent fantasy already

Dunno if you know, but that's actually the JOB of the police. To solve crime. Not to stop it. It has even been to the Supreme Court where the court agreed that the police have no obligation to protect you from crime.

Listen tormund, do I need to find you random links of stories about cops solving crimes to dismiss your nonsense?

Solving? No, because that is clearly not what we are talking about. Actually, I'm still not sure what you are talking about. You haven't actually advocated any policies or changes, merely denigrated those who choose to arm themselves. Do you have a point other than trolling?

[The Progressive]

And do tell us how a shootout between wannabe vigilantes and armed thugs are safer for the victims?

Dunno if you know, but that's actually the JOB of the police. To solve crime. Not to stop it.

Oh I don't know, it probably has something to do with the preventive effect that all law enforcement agencies strive for.

You haven't actually advocated any policies or changes

Actually I have, you're just too wrapped up in your self-indulgence fantasy of hyper-vigilante to read that I've advocated that the open carry of weapons should be limited to only professional law enforcement personnel on official duty.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

And do tell us how a shootout between wannabe vigilantes and armed thugs are safer for the victims?

Do see the links that I have provided.

Oh I don't know, it probably has something to do with the preventive effect that all law enforcement agencies strive for.

I believe that the second of my links also addresses this issue.

Actually I have, you're just too wrapped up in your self-indulgence fantasy of hyper-vigilante to read that I've advocated that the open carry of weapons should be limited to only professional law enforcement personnel on official duty.

I guess that you must be referring to this post:

Getting caught between wannabe-Rambo and armed thugs sure isn't safe for anybody.

Let the professional law enforcement personnel do their job.

I really don't get people, like this Rosenberg douchebag, who want to carry arms openly and isn't on official law enforcement duty ....... what are they trying to prove? that they have erectile dysfunction?

Which doesn't advocate policy so much as belittle and dismiss.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Lev,

Which, if you are confronted with an armed assailent leaves very few options that don't necessitate acceding to the assailent's wishes whatever they may be. I believe Tormund's point is that if you are armed you have a chance to defend yourself a chance not available if you are not armed.

[The Progressive]

Scot,

If that was true, then wouldn't you say that compared to today with all the gun laws in the book, the wild west would have been a model for peace and non-violent?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Lev,

Not necessarily, no.

I'm not making the representation that "an armed society is a polite society". All I'm saying is that if the assailent is armed and the person being assailed is not the options for the person being assailed are limited to praying really hard that the person with the firearm will not shoot them when they've finished doing whatever it is they want to do. Is that not true?

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

Scot,

If that was true, then wouldn't you say that compared to today with all the gun laws in the book, the wild west would have been a model for peace and non-violent?

Old West violence mostly myth

...However, even in a cattle town like Abilene, Kan., the murder rate was much lower than in most modern American cities. Larry Schweikart, a historian at the University of Dayton, estimates that there were probably fewer than a dozen bank robberies in the entire period from 1859 through 1900 in all the frontier West. Schweikart summarizes: "The record is shockingly clear: There are more bank robberies in modern-day Dayton, Ohio, in a year than there were in the entire Old West in a decade, perhaps in the entire frontier period!"

[Ixodes]

Old West violence mostly myth

...However, even in a cattle town like Abilene, Kan., the murder rate was much lower than in most modern American cities. Larry Schweikart, a historian at the University of Dayton, estimates that there were probably fewer than a dozen bank robberies in the entire period from 1859 through 1900 in all the frontier West. Schweikart summarizes: "The record is shockingly clear: There are more bank robberies in modern-day Dayton, Ohio, in a year than there were in the entire Old West in a decade, perhaps in the entire frontier period!"

Heh. But we shouldn't let the truth get in the way of a popular metaphor.

I think the vast majority of people who carry a weapon for protection aren't doing so because they think they're Rambo or have penis disorders.

My favorite gun defense anecdote:

My Grandpa started his own pharmacy back in the 40's. Family business was successful and popular for decades. Then the neighborhood started going down. Heroin moved in and the crime rate went up. Grandpa always figured that nothing in the pharmacy was worth anyone's life. If there was going to be robbery attempts he had no problem complying and emptying the till. Everyone be cool, no one gets hurt, etc.

This theory was tested with the first armed robbery. Two masked men, armed with shotguns, decided to get all the opiates he had. Two sweaty, shaking thugs come in while Grandpa and a 17 year old employee (a young lady from the high school workin part time) were in the shop. Grandpa was cool, collected and made sure that the thieves knew they were going to get whatever they wanted with no resistance. All the while a 12 gauge barrel is thrust in his face, he gets all the pills, empties the till, and puts everything in a bag for the thugs. He complies, is polite, and keeps telling that they can leave and no one has to get hurt. As they were leaving one of the robbers takes the butt of his shotgun and smashes the 17 year old girls face in, just because he could. That sound of smashing bones of his defenseless high school employee haunted my Grandpa for the rest of his life. Grandpa did everything right yet was helpless when a young girl he employed was assaulted. Robbers weren't found by police.

Myth: The guy robbing you at gunpoint will be a rational actor. Hopefully this doesn't come as a surprise but the guy chosing to rob you may not be the most logical person on earth. In fact, there is a good chance that this person is more violent than you can imagine.

My Grandpa decides he's going to keep a gun at the store, not because he felt like a big dick vigilante, not because he had erectile dysfunction, but because he never wanted to feel helpless as when a thug broke the face of some kid trying to earn some extra money by working for him. Unfortunately he had to use the gun twice in his life. The first time was a year later, when two shotgun toting masked thugs walk in (they remembered the place). Grandpa opens fire, both run out, one collapses with wounds and is captured by police. Guy recovers, rats out his friend, and both go to jail for a string of robberies stretching back several years. The next time was a for another junkie robbing the place with a pistol. In both situations no one was killed (pure luck but I am forever grateful that Grandpa didn't kill anyone) and after the second attempt there was no further drama through retirement.

At no point was he ever proud of his actions but he did feel he had an obligation to his family and employees.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Ixodes,

Thank you for sharing that but fair warning this is where Lev usually jumps in and says that anicdotes don't prove the rule.

[Ixodes]

And my anecdote doesn't have much to do with Rosenberg's clash with the police. Rosenberg's decision to carry openly, especially into a police station, is provocation more than protection.

But when someone says they want to be armed to protect others, I think about my Grandpa and why he was armed. If he was the only person who worked in the pharmacy he wouldn't have carried a gun.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Ixodes,

I think your Grandfather was a very sensible man given what he went through.

[Shryke]

Old West violence mostly myth

...However, even in a cattle town like Abilene, Kan., the murder rate was much lower than in most modern American cities. Larry Schweikart, a historian at the University of Dayton, estimates that there were probably fewer than a dozen bank robberies in the entire period from 1859 through 1900 in all the frontier West. Schweikart summarizes: "The record is shockingly clear: There are more bank robberies in modern-day Dayton, Ohio, in a year than there were in the entire Old West in a decade, perhaps in the entire frontier period!"

Do they control for population size and town size and so on?

[Centrist Simon Steele]

Lev,

Which, if you are confronted with an armed assailent leaves very few options that don't necessitate acceding to the assailent's wishes whatever they may be. I believe Tormund's point is that if you are armed you have a chance to defend yourself a chance not available if you are not armed.

Anyone who is even slightly trained with a weapon knows the best defense when someone pulls a gun is to not pull your own unless you want to ensure someone dies. Most likely yourself since you were too late to the gun pulling party anyway.

I agree with Pax. I don't get all this "I'm packing for the good of you, America" nonsense.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

And my anecdote doesn't have much to do with Rosenberg's clash with the police. Rosenberg's decision to carry openly, especially into a police station, is provocation more than protection.

But when someone says they want to be armed to protect others, I think about my Grandpa and why he was armed. If he was the only person who worked in the pharmacy he wouldn't have carried a gun.

But your grandfather was an employer, and that girl his employee. I can completely understand why he'd feel protective of someone on his staff. Statistics would argue against your grandfather's case, but when he hires a seventeen year old girl and he is the only adult in the building then of course he feels responsible. And I don't have a problem with him trying to protect her. It's the guys who think they need to conceal in the streets to protect everyone that baffle me. Let me handle my own affairs. I don't need some dipshit cop nor Tormund the Super Hero to help me or my family.

[MercenaryChef]

But your grandfather was an employer, and that girl his employee. I can completely understand why he'd feel protective of someone on his staff. Statistics would argue against your grandfather's case, but when he hires a seventeen year old girl and he is the only adult in the building then of course he feels responsible. And I don't have a problem with him trying to protect her. It's the guys who think they need to conceal in the streets to protect everyone that baffle me. Let me handle my own affairs. I don't need some dipshit cop nor Tormund the Super Hero to help me or my family.

well, if you really and truly loved your family you would be packing concealed and then nobody would need to protect them for you!

asshole!

*sarcasm and satire intended. enjoy

[The Progressive]

And my anecdote doesn't have much to do with Rosenberg's clash with the police. Rosenberg's decision to carry openly, especially into a police station, is provocation more than protection.

But when someone says they want to be armed to protect others, I think about my Grandpa and why he was armed. If he was the only person who worked in the pharmacy he wouldn't have carried a gun.

I'm glad that someone else also saw Rosenberg's action for what it is. As for your story about the action that your grandpa did, even though I don't think that an anecdotal story is convincing enough (there could easily be some other anecdotal story where the gun wielder ended up harming some bystanders), I also realize that there's a world difference between having a gun to protect your place of business/employees, and carrying a gun openly around so that one could randomly intervene, like a caped vigilante with an inflated opinion of one's shooting ability, into spontaneously occurring hostage/burglary/murder/hijack/whatever situations.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

well, if you really and truly loved your family you would be packing concealed and then nobody would need to protect them for you!

asshole!

*sarcasm and satire intended. enjoy

Haha, touche.

But then I would argue, true heroes don't carry weapons, they acquire them on site.

[Balefont]

Anyone who is even slightly trained with a weapon knows the best defense when someone pulls a gun is to not pull your own unless you want to ensure someone dies. Most likely yourself since you were too late to the gun pulling party anyway.

I agree with Pax. I don't get all this "I'm packing for the good of you, America" nonsense.

That's pretty much what I've been thinking. I've still yet to hear a good argument for carrying a gun around. Keeping one in your home or at your business, there's plenty of argument for this. Carrying one around, not so much that I can gather.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

That's pretty much what I've been thinking. I've still yet to hear a good argument for carrying a gun around. Keeping one in your home or at your business, there's plenty of argument for this. Carrying one around, not so much that I can gather.

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in which an armed citizen is required to intervene when one of the military starts shooting up an apartment complex.