World of Warcraft

[Kalbear]

Ten man wasn't as bad but 25 man seems harder than anything in ICC bar LK HM (and maybe Sindy and PP).

Depends on when you did what. HAnub is harder than 30% HPP or HSind or HBQL or HDBS, but it's about as hard as 0% HBQL with appropriate gear and not as hard as HPP at 0%. And really not as hard as HSind at 0%. Ugh.

HAnub 25 was a very hard fight, but a lot of it was people not being dumb. It's a very repeatable kill, unlike HLK or Deathwhisper or even HSind was for some folks.

Yogg 0 was significantly harder at lower gear levels than HAnub.

[Inigima]

I said three things basically:

1) Lich King Heroics were the easiest heroics we've had and are pretty trivial.

2) BRD used to be a multi hour clear back in classic.

3) Lich King raids were easier than TBC/Classic raids. (easily proven by the completion numbers on the content. More people completed the LK instances, one because normal/heroic modes and 2 because heroic mode was still easier than fights in TBC)

Since none of these statements is actually false I really don't see your point.

None of those things are what I told you you were wrong about. I'm done arguing with you, you are ridiculous.

[Max the Mostly Mediocre]

Anyway, spending 90-120 minutes a day is a huge time commitment and starts to feel more like a small raid than a dungeon, and I don't really have that kind of time.

*twitch*

[Arakasi]

Sorry Inigma. I think where you got confused was when I said LK I meant the expansion, not the fight. Everyone I've talked to said Arthas was a pretty difficult fight. Your point about defile is one I've heard elsewhere. I stand by what I said about the 5 mans though. I did them all enough times and on enough toons to fully back up what I say about it. If you want to disagree, go ahead. ;)

[Kalbear]

Ini, stop PMSing so much. Geez.

TBC was harder for the most part. Things like Kael'thas at the second tier of content was a breaker; even with overgearing he was still a ballbreaker. T6 was mostly easy; Illidan was much easier than Kael'thas, for instance (much like HAnub was much easier than yogg0) but Sunwell was as hard as any of the heroic bosses in WotLK save HLK at lower %buffs. TBC also didn't have nearly the resources that WotLK had for raiders; addons weren't as advanced, abilities weren't streamlined, and you were hugely dependent on classes far unlike anything in WotLK (where class imbalance helped but didn't break you). Gear wasn't nearly as easy to skate through either; you pretty much had to do T4 before T5. Hell, Magtheridon pre-nerf was a ball breaker.

WotLK was for the most part very, very easy raiding encounter wise. It had more class balance, more gear availability, easier encounter design and a lot nicer 'DON"T STAND IN THE GOD DAMN FIRE" messages. There were a few encounters that were much harder than anything in TBC, but most people didn't come close to downing them when they were relevant anyway.

[Weak With The Dawn]

It's certainly true that raiding in Wrath was easier, but easier doesn't always mean worse. There was certainly more room for error and I think that was kind of a good thing in the long run.

Those of uswho raided the harder content back in TBC or vanilla got a bit of a break, other players got to catch up and experience an encounter with one of the most well known story line villains and it was still fulfilling.

Now the more veteran raiders are putting their old shoes back on and the newbies from Wrath are learning raid mechanics from the ground up and it's getting more competitive again. That's something I can get behind. Dungeons can certainly take work, but when you're in a group who is willing to learn it's great practice for raids and by 4.1 they'll start being trivial anyway.

[Kalbear]

In general I agree; I had more fun raiding in WotLK than TBC. It was easier but the encounters weren't harder just because you didn't have 5 holy priests or three paladins online. I didn't like the heroics though; I thought they were pretty stupid. Way too easy, way too short, not enough reward for doing them. Being able to do Shalls fast was a sign of skill; there was nothing like that in WotLK, not even HoR.

But TBC was from top to bottom harder.

[Inigima]

[Guild] [Timecube]: do you have any idea how hard it is to get bloodstains out of an anime bodypillow

[Guild] [Timecube]: mt

EDIT: there's something poetic about Deathtonubs, level 84 Death Knight, dying to frontal cones as melee DPS

[Arakasi]

Good post by GC on Heroics.

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/150722/wow-dungeons-are-hard

[jurble]

My worst heroic experiences generally involve the time-involved. Guild-members know we won't kick them, so they're always like "afk bathroom." "afk food" "afk trash" "afk laundry" extending the length of already long dungeons by an hour

[Lyanna Stark]

Depends on when you did what. HAnub is harder than 30% HPP or HSind or HBQL or HDBS, but it's about as hard as 0% HBQL with appropriate gear and not as hard as HPP at 0%. And really not as hard as HSind at 0%. Ugh.

HAnub 25 was a very hard fight, but a lot of it was people not being dumb. It's a very repeatable kill, unlike HLK or Deathwhisper or even HSind was for some folks.

Yogg 0 was significantly harder at lower gear levels than HAnub.

I think the reason why HC Anub, Yogg 0 and HC LK, HC PP were so bloody hard (Sindra HM I always thought was just a ridiculous design, as it had too much RNG) is that it put a huge chunk of responsibility on the individual. (HC Anub also need some leet healing tactics, which most of Wrath totally discouraged btw adn Yogg 0 is just nuts in every possible way.)

Cata raiding is hard for the same reason, but it's tempered by the larger HP pools and larger mana constraints for healers. Meaning you have slightly longer reaction times to think. Problem with fights like HC Anub and HC PP is that the damage is immense, but you also have relatively small HP pools, so less time to react/ compensate. Also, on Anub you have huge pulsing damage and you WANT to keep already fragile people on low HP. Basically the whole fight is a contradiction in itself.

Compare it to the Chimaeron encounter where you are MEANT to be on low health, but you also have the leeway of huge HP pools to give you some leverage.

Regarding TBC raids:

I thought Blizzard had admitted that the raid difficulty in TBC was way too hard. Most people did not see half the content, and only T4 raids were really pugable even at the very end of the expansion. Shamanwell needed huge stacking to even be possible, which was ridiculous. Sure, TBC had some amazing and memorable encounters, but it also had a host of issues that I think were addressed in Wrath and hopefully fine tuned in Cata.

Starting dungeons in Cata as a healer is also vastly different from tanking or DPSing. Healing is immensly stressful while tanking and DPSing is more or less the same as in Wrath.

I can totally understand why Ini is disheartened. It also doesn't help that PUGers are very good at blaming the healer when they don't understand the mechanics, or stand in fire.

On a different note, we practised on Ascendant council. Due to attendancy problems, we had to take two sub par DPS doing maybe 7k each. We got through to P3 at least 5 times tho, but best result was 14%. Don't think we have the DPS with this setup to burn him in P3. Also, our DPS are really good at timing DPS on the first two adds, but shite at the second phase, cos they best they managed was one add at 25% and the other at 44% (yes, tunnel vision FTL).

[Solmyr]

Regarding the Heroics difficulty discussion that is taking place - I am going to assume the elitist jerk side and go with: "heroics are too easy, people who wipe there are unskilled, do not understand their class or were simply the spoilt children of the easy WotLK expansion".

I understand that nearly everyone will disagree with me, for even those who do not complain currently, would, should Blizz decide to actually make heroics harder (as is my desire).

Maybe it is my WoW upbringing, but when I hear the word 'heroic' I imagine those Shattered Halls runs, where you spent 1h assembling the 'perfect group' then 1h reaching the first boss. Then you wiped a few times on the gauntlet event, blowed consumables on Mr. Bladefist and finally, when the epic fist weapon dropped at 4am you rejoiced loudly enough to wake the neighbours. All of this actually happened to me, including the 4am part ;).

And that was the game I liked. There is a reason most people rate TBC as a better expansion than WotLK. The difficulty curve was steeper especially at the start. Nobody handed you epics simply for attending. Reputations had to be farmed. Dailies needed to be farmed. Materials for consumables needed to be farmed.

The heroics now are easily outgear-able within weeks. I use my alt warrior as an example for this. When I hit 85 with him I had ~320 item level, most of it dps gear. I went to the auction house and bought some paladin intellect gear to reach 329 then dove in the heroics. Most groups were discouraged by my low hp, but towards the end of the heroics they admitted I was a better tank than many they've seen.

Now, 2 weeks later I have pre-raiding BiS items for both tanking and dps (including PvP dps), while raiding and maintaining my main at the same time. I do all the heroics by aoeing all the groups (both on my tank and on my warlock) and anyone who cannot keep up or deliver 10k dps is free to leave.

If we were in TBC, on the same time frame, I would've probably still been farming reputation for keys to some of the heroics, had to assemble groups in trade chat (which requires a measure of social skills, key to heroics), and been called a madman (and rightly so) if I tried to aoe tank a group in one of the harder heroics (say, SH or Arcatraz). Hence I conclude that Cataclysm is an easier expansion than TBC, especially when it comes to raiding, but also with heroics. Seeing that the latest patch notes already start nerfing what is already easier than I'd wish, I'm beginning to feel disappointed, but then again there's PvP, where, as it is in the beginning of every expansion, there are numerous bugs and imbalanced to be exploited for my sick amusement ;).

[Arakasi]

I definitely agree with the gist of your post there Solmyr. Although I think some parts of the TBC experience were over the line. For example the horrible keying process early on. Or the massive farming for consumables. Or the fact that melee had an awful time getting groups if they weren't the tank. None of those made a better game, but harder heroics did. I am hoping Cata continues to have some of the TBC flavor with a few of the big headaches smoothed out.

I saw the notes on the heroics, and yeah some are being nerfed a bit. However some like Halls, Vortex Pinnacle and others are being buffed. So hopefully it works out. Not like it matters much, since like GC said you will outgear this stuff pretty soon and when you do it is easy mode.

Getting back to what Solmyr said, I think the LFD tool is a great tool for getting groups fast, but it has completely killed out of guild community in wow. When levelling and doing 5 mans in Wrath, I rarely ever saw anyone from my server. Basically I went from 1-80 without any social interaction. Considering this is an mmo that is pretty stupid. I think the LFD tool needs to be tweaked to prioritize grouping with people in realm, so at least you get a chance of meeting people you can queue with again. Either that or allow cross server grouping and maybe you can form groups with some pug you had a good run with. The whole "find a pug in trade, do a run with him, find out they're good, add them to friend, group with them again, eventually raid with them" was an important mechanic in all the pre wrath stuff. It's how I found most of my guilds and friends in game. Now you might as well be playing single player.

I hope GC and co consider what they said they're doing in that post, which is creating 3 levels of difficulties for instances. I would welcome a punishing 5 man version of the heroics that kept up with the latest raids and gave appropriate rewards for doing them.

[Lyanna Stark]

Now, 2 weeks later I have pre-raiding BiS items for both tanking and dps (including PvP dps), while raiding and maintaining my main at the same time. I do all the heroics by aoeing all the groups (both on my tank and on my warlock) and anyone who cannot keep up or deliver 10k dps is free to leave.

I'm sorry but I call bullshit. My healer is average 350 geared and the tanks I run dungeons with are higher, our DPS pull 11k and we still get caned on some trash pulls due to casters locking me out or other mechanics. Sure, SOME packs are AoEable, but very very far from all.

Also, if you do, I'll burn ALL my mana on every trash pull just healing you through it. And I heal a pro goblin warrior tank who is the best kiter I have seen. I still burn all my mana. Or get a paladin.

Fact is: some CC = much faster run and the healer won't burn consumables and water like hot cakes just cos you think you're God's gift to tanking.

I have healed Shattered Halls several times in blues without wipes and with one or no mage in the group (we normally ran hunter/mage, lock and ret pala). And yes they were needlessly penalising and should definitely not be used as a benchmark.

The bosses in Cata are all fine (minus Altarius, and his cyclones will be nerfed, HAH) but the trash can sometimes be really really annoying.

[Solmyr]

I'm sorry but I call bullshit. My healer is average 350 geared and the tanks I run dungeons with are higher, our DPS pull 11k and we still get caned on some trash pulls due to casters locking me out or other mechanics. Sure, SOME packs are AoEable, but very very far from all.

Also, if you do, I'll burn ALL my mana on every trash pull just healing you through it. And I heal a pro goblin warrior tank who is the best kiter I have seen. I still burn all my mana. Or get a paladin.

The only pack I can think of, that I do not AoE is the second in Stonecore. I use cds on the first and third and we aoe them down, but the second without cds can be hard I admit. Casters in packs are np, as long as I have at least one of the dps on skype with me I simply say "you interrupt the left" I shield bash the right and we're settled. No marks, no delays.

Oh yes, I definitely agree that with CC it can be as fast if not faster sometimes, BUT it is also much less fun, especially for the tank (me). And I play to have fun, hence I pull recklessly, blow cds every time I feel I need them and in general have no regard for the safety of my group, but instead value their time (as any GOOD tank should :P).

Most of the times I run with random healers and I always make sure to accommodate their needs (mana breaks, etc), however when my healer is geared or I'm with my holy priest friend I never hold back. He's ~354/55 and I trust him to keep me up against Beauty with 4 pups without killing the pups.

Then again I wanna stress that my warr is an alt and I only leveled him for PvP reasons (to exploit an OP class before the nerf - probably next Wednesday :D). I run heroics with my friends mainly, so they don't have to wipe with retarded tanks for hours (2 guildies wiped on the 3rd boss in Stonecore for 2 hours, changing a dozen tanks, none of which knew how not-to-die from Shatter and Ground Slam). When I play my demo lock, however, I really shine as I have 355ilvl, an overpowered AoE demo spec and no regard for my personal safety.

[Arakasi]

I don't think he's completely wrong on the heroic discussion regarding use of CC. Back when I started I needed to CC 2 mobs a pack. Now at ILvl 347 half the instances I don't need to CC. I could see with another 8-10 Ilvls that I could eliminate the rest of it (the ones left being SC, last 2 pulls on GB, an occasional HoO pack, ToT 5 packs and Pinnacle 5 packs) And the only reason the last 2 need it is because of the double healer pulls.

[Max the Mostly Mediocre]

Maybe it is my WoW upbringing, but when I hear the word 'heroic' I imagine those Shattered Halls runs, where you spent 1h assembling the 'perfect group' then 1h reaching the first boss. Then you wiped a few times on the gauntlet event, blowed consumables on Mr. Bladefist and finally, when the epic fist weapon dropped at 4am you rejoiced loudly enough to wake the neighbours. All of this actually happened to me, including the 4am part ;).

And that was the game I liked. There is a reason most people rate TBC as a better expansion than WotLK. The difficulty curve was steeper especially at the start. Nobody handed you epics simply for attending. Reputations had to be farmed. Dailies needed to be farmed. Materials for consumables needed to be farmed.

You so crazy. If there's one thing WoW doesn't need to be, it's more of a time sink.

Now, 2 weeks later

How many hours played in those two weeks?

[Kalbear]

Maybe it is my WoW upbringing, but when I hear the word 'heroic' I imagine those Shattered Halls runs, where you spent 1h assembling the 'perfect group' then 1h reaching the first boss. Then you wiped a few times on the gauntlet event, blowed consumables on Mr. Bladefist and finally, when the epic fist weapon dropped at 4am you rejoiced loudly enough to wake the neighbours. All of this actually happened to me, including the 4am part

Wow, you and the people you grouped with were completely horrible.

[Inigima]

No one is telling you you're lying. Lyanna is saying that when you tank the way you do, assuming you and the healer don't both outgear the content -- which it sounds like you do -- you're making the run very taxing for the healer. As for pulling recklessly especially when you have a healer whose average ilvl is better than the gear dropped in heroics, no shit, when you're wearing all heroic gear or better, heroics aren't as hard and you can get away with being less careful. This is a revelation how? Next you'll complain that Stratholme is too easy because your 85 paladin can solo it. Blizzard is fucking us again! The same for Arakasi's comment that he can AOE everything when his average ilvl is really high. Fucking wow!

Lyanna: Unfortunately no one thinks about healers ever unless it's to blame them for the death they caused themselves so your points, while well made, will fall on deaf ears,

[Kalbear]

I hope GC and co consider what they said they're doing in that post, which is creating 3 levels of difficulties for instances. I would welcome a punishing 5 man version of the heroics that kept up with the latest raids and gave appropriate rewards for doing them.

The easiest way to do this is to have different lowest gear level requirements for the LFD group for heroics. Stonecore too hard with a bunch of 329s? Bump up the LFD group tool's value to 345. Do the same for something like Deadmines too. Have a whole spectrum of heroics like that, and then you have a clear progression path.

You don't need three tiers of heroics; you need a whole spectrum of them. And they easily have the tools to do this right now. Sure, if you're lower level in gear you'll see the same few heroics many times (unless you form a group yourself), but so what? Isn't the point of LFD to make groups easy to assemble that have a reasonably good chance of succeeding?

Honestly, I'd like nothing better than to make LFD really punishing on the requirement to get in so that it encourages people to form groups on their realm. Losing that part really takes the social aspects out of the game, as well as hurts recruiting.