Fantasy economies

[Cantabile]

It's not like it takes that long to research what happens from severe blunt trauma to the head, which is why I have a hard time forgiving writers who write medically nonsensical scenes. Fantasy novels are filled to the brim with violence, wars, and fighting, yet despite it being a staple of the genre very few fantasy authors actually take any time to make sure they're not contradicting every known fact about the human body in the process. If you have one of your main characters maimed, or hit in the back of the head by a giant metal object, is it so much to ask that they look up what the hell actually happens to people in those situations?

It's the same issue with the economies, I suppose: authors not being damned to research things before writing them. Which seems ridiculous when you take into account how many hours they're pouring into their books. All that time and effort, and they can't spare thirty minutes on Google and Wikipedia to make sure what they're writing makes sense?

[Eponine]

I can buy it if the premise is that the Hound really didn't care if he hurt Arya. If he had developed enough conscience not to outright kill her, but had no real other thought or intention as to what the outcome of hitting her would be, and then she happened to come to. Hey, it happened to me - I was concussed and was out for over a week with no detectable damage, but it was just good fortune (and life-preserving coincidences always have to happen to protagonists).

What I find annoying is when a character has some kind of "knowledge" of how to hit someone on the head so that they'll revive in exactly 10 minutes.

I don't find that seemingly improbable economies bother me a large scale world, unless the author says something that contradicts the way things appear to work. If the author isn't willing to explain the economy in some consistent detail, which often isn't necessary for the story, it's better for the economy to be hidden or assumed.

[Migey]

Can i ask Cantabile, what exactly would you suggest an author should type into google to find out about realistic economies? Just out of curiosity.

Alot of the stuff on the internet is either out of date, or complete and utter bullshit. Esp on google.

[Shryke]

And in the end, even if they know shit about economics, many will ignore it to tell the kind of story they want to tell.

It's just like almost every sci-fi author ever ignoring the laws of physics to make their story work.

[Cantabile]

Can i ask Cantabile, what exactly would you suggest an author should type into google to find out about realistic economies? Just out of curiosity.

Alot of the stuff on the internet is either out of date, or complete and utter bullshit. Esp on google.

Obviously it's going to depend upon what specifically they're writing that has to do with economics, but let's say that in their novel a giant swarm of magical locusts descends from the supervillain's anus, and proceeds to screw over the country's entire agricultural production. The author could do some research to find out what happens, historically, when a country's agriculture goes to shit, to know what very well might likewise happen to their own fantasy world's economy as a result, rather than having absolutely nothing happen except the protagonist defeats the anus-spawned-locusts, kills the suppervillain, and rides off into the sunset on a unicorn, cuing a happily ever after sequence.

The Internet is an incredible resource for information as long as one knows what they're doing. Yes, there is false information out there, but that just means one needs to research more thoroughly and check sources.

[Migey]

Good example, i guess.

Although for that particular one, i don't think much research is needed to find out what happens when anus-spawned insects screw over all the farmland in the country.

[Cantabile]

Good example, i guess.

Although for that particular one, i don't think much research is needed to find out what happens when anus-spawned insects screw over all the farmland in the country.

A lot of things others take as common-sense seem to ellude plenty of authors, unfortunately. To go back to my geography complaint, I always thought that most people at least remembered a bit of basic geography from all their years of school, but looking at the maps for fantasy novels you'll find giant flourishing cities and verdant fields on places that realistically would be deserts, and plenty of other goodies.

[Migey]

I'm still in school, and i don't do geography...

Although most of the maps i occasionally draw of random worlds for fun, make no geographical sense. If any of them (some of them are quite good) ever come to fruit, i'l be sure to explain carefully how a wizard did it.

Is it just me, or are gaping flaws in reality and sense acceptable as long as its made clear a wizard did it?

Damn wizards. :fencing:

[Cantabile]

I wish I had the link to Robert Stanek's map handy.

Nobody ever taught the man the distinction between north, east, west, and south.

[Migey]

Well i got those right. (Although i always need 2 seconds in my head to get East and West right.) My maps still don't make much sense until the wizards come along.

They are still good though. Honest.

And btw, i keep hearing about Stanek defecating on peoples souls. Using my genius powers of deduction, i've worked out he is one of the less liked authors (although some seem tentative to ascribe the term to him) on this board.

But who the hell is he anyway? What did he write? And why?

[Cantabile]

But who the hell is he anyway? What did he write?

Robert Stanek is the bestselling author of over 70 books.

Everyone on this forum is just jealous that GRRM can't compete with Stanek's financial and critical success, which is why he has a bad rap here.

Haters gonna' hate.

[Kosciuszko]

Stanek is a famous award-winning author that is beloved by millions- no billions- of fans. He is the greatest author to ever live. I mean, upon reading of his tragic heroines in his hundreds of novels, a tear comes to my eye.

More on Stanek here.

[Migey]

Fair enough, although i think we all know that being best-selling means holy fuck all. After all, Dan Brown, Stephenie Meyer, and Christopher Paolini are all best selling.

I think David Eddings is too. And Goodkind.

Hell these days, anyone who can make interesting swirly patterns on a peice of paper with thier pet dogs latest steaming turd seems to be able to get a best-selling title.

[Errant Bard]

My maps still don't make much sense until the wizards come along.

But it's good to have wizards do it. The problem is keeping it consistent and believable. Because there is one thing you cannot change, it's human nature, so the "why" must always be answered. Discworld does that to a ludicrous degree, but it does make sense consistently, even if there's upside down mountains, areas of magical radiation, the world is a flat disc on four elephants standing on a giant space turtle, water falling from the disc teleports back mysteriously, and so on.

The problem comes from the instant the author tries to pretend everything is normal and dandy, no magical and anything, and it mostly does that, but somewhere without explanation it does something else. Like we see people dying from cold or hunger, and needing trade and harvest to survive, and not having special logistics or equipment, but suddenly they are supposed to survive ten years winters.

Anyway, you're in what, ninth grade, and you never did geography? What the fuck.

Fair enough, although i think we all know that being best-selling means holy fuck all. After all, Dan Brown, Stephenie Meyer, and Christopher Paolini are all best selling.

You're missing the sarcasm. The Stanek says he's a best selling author, but his books come from a vanity press that he privately owns. He's the best selling guy among those he edits (these being him, himself and him). Also claims that title by virtue of his this time truly well selling technical manuals (computer, iirc) written under another first name.

[Cantabile]

Hell these days, anyone who can make interesting swirly patterns on a peice of paper with thier pet dogs latest steaming turd seems to be able to get a best-selling title.

Not only does Stanek make swirly patterns with his pet dog's latest turd, but he then photocopies them, changes the title, and sells them as distinctly new works of art. Then he creates fake fan websites for the feces-smear, makes thousands of fake profiles, and then has them write tens of thousands of posts about how amazing the feces-smear is and how it changed their life. Then he will go to Amazon, write hundreds of praising reviews for his swirly-pattern-of-dog-shit, and then use the accounts to give successful authors dozens of 1 star ratings.

And since that alone doesn't cement his success, Stanek goes to the book signings of other authors, sits with them for a photo-op, then photoshops the picture to make it look like it was his book signing for his feces-smear.

When caught, Stanek tells people they're going to get shanked in prison.

Oh, Robert Stanek, you rascal you.

[Migey]

No Errant Bard, im a little past Ninth Grade >.<

And i live in Britain. We dont do grades here, fool.

And yes, i got the sarcasm :P I thought it would be amusing to run with it. And thanks Kosciuszko for the link to that thread, and indeed to you Cantabile for that post. I havn't lolled so much in weeks.

I've got to read this guy.

Or maybe i'd better not.

Edit : Come to think of it, seeing as i live in Britain, i'm not quite sure exactly what Ninth Grade is!

Damn you Errant Bard, you and your cunning trickery.

[Kosciuszko]

Ninth grade is around age 15 or so.

[Liadin]

I said something similar to it and I agree with it. I am from Minnesota and it is quite cold here. A one year winter would be at least 3 times as long as our winters. There is no way a farmer could survive one year of winter in this area. If you go to North Dakota it would be even worse. Read any accounts of early pioneers in this region, whom had access to much more technology and supplies than the people of Westeros, and they barely made a miserable existence through a few months of winter. IMO one year winters would not make civilization possible. In the northern U.S. they would have had more than a whole continent to supply them by railroad for the most part(southern North America and South America)and it was still very difficult.

In all fairness, while I'm also skeptical about the length of the winters, the people you're talking about are settlers coming from elsewhere. Of course they had a hard time. That doesn't mean the native population couldn't survive there on very basic technology; there's a native population year-round even in northern Canada and Alaska. The huge difference from GRRM's northerners being, as you alluded to, that they were primarily hunters rather than farmers.

But we do know that the summers and winters are of more-or-less proportional length. So why exactly do you say a farmer couldn't survive a year of winter? They'd get in more harvests during the summer (well--apparently--I dunno about those summer snows), so as long as the food would keep long enough, why is it impossible?

Also, we had a whole thread on getting knocked unconscious not too long ago. Something that didn't bother me at all when I knew nothing about the human body but bothers me a lot now. I was super pissed last time I ran across mercenaries expertly knocking a couple people unconscious and then correctly predicting that they would be out for about half an hour (which they of course survived with no lasting injuries on medieval medical care).... and in a Kay book. I expect better from good authors, dammit.

[sologdin]

It's the middle-ages (basically) wealth is land and people to work it.

regarding the people who work the land, does asoiaf have a manorialist system, i.e., serfdom? there's no chattel slavery in the seven kingdoms(not counting ironborn thralls and saltwives, 'course), but there are feudal relations ("bannerman" apparently equals an enfeoffed warrior who owes knight service).

all of the investitures post-blackwater and post-joffrey involve transfers of "all lands and incomes" subordinate to various castles--this suggests manorialism, but might not confirm it--though, knight service owed to a liege almost guarantees some kind of unfree labor to produce the knight, and i suspect the oft-repeated insistance that lords must protect "smallfolk" might indicate serfdom. jorah mormont gets nailed for nailing poachers in the equivalent of the lord's forest--which suggests manorialism.

i dunno, though. perhaps there's a very explicit description that i've missed in my haste to get to the fat pink masts.

[Red Sun]

all of the investitures post-blackwater and post-joffrey involve transfers of "all lands and incomes" subordinate to various castles--this suggests manorialism, but might not confirm it--though, knight service owed to a liege almost guarantees some kind of unfree labor to produce the knight, and i suspect the oft-repeated insistance that lords must protect "smallfolk" might indicate serfdom. jorah mormont gets nailed for nailing poachers in the equivalent of the lord's forest--which suggests manorialism.

I'm not absolutely sure about the English terminology, but to me serfdom would imply that the peasants are bound to "serve" their lord a certain amount of time by tending his fields. However, "land and incomes" can also only describe a certain number of villages with all their rights (high and/or low juridication, fishing, water, forests etc.) that belong to the lord or knight, while the peasants themselves pay him a certain (fixed) amount of grains or money without being required to work on his fields. The rights over the land would be included in "lands" and the fixed amount of whatever the peasants pay would be included in "incomes". In addition to what the peasants pay, you (if you were a medieval landowner) could also recieve regular incomes from mills and inns.