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spikebrennan

Opportunities to cast non-white actors

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If 99% of the characters had a description, you'd have a point. They don't. We all fill in the blanks in our head. There are also more than one or two generations that turn someone whose ancestors descended from elsewhere into "just one of the masses", or however you want to think about it.

But it's obvious that you're never going to acknowledge any of that*, and that you want a lily white view to match what you think Martin's world looks like. You do what you want, and I'll continue to hope that HBO acknowledges something more real-world.

*This is, in addition, despite admitting that there was real-world trade and real-world immigration and real-world interbreeding and real-world examples that absolutely fit with what we know about Martin's world. You are really reaching with some of your characterisations of others' arguments, too, which is just one more reason I think I'm bowing out at this point.

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There should be no unpleasent assumptions about me, other than the fact that Davos Seaworth could be swarthy, but if Martin had intended him to look, say like a Sumnmer Islander don't you think that he would have mentioned it?

The point is, does that matter? You admit in your post that there will be a small number of people within KL who are mixed-race children of whores and sailors, why is it so hard to accept that HBO could choose to depict Davos as one of them? Sure, it may not match how GRRM described him in the book, but then that's true of half the cast (the kids are all at least two or three years older than the books, Robert is shorter, Sandor's burn is on the opposite side of his face, etc.). None of these change the essential nature of the characters, and neither will darkening Davos's skin a shade or two, if HBO think that a browner actor will do the job better than a white guy.

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if Martin had intended him to look, say like a Sumnmer Islander don't you think that he would have mentioned it?

There is the book. There is the TV series. One is not a 100% reflection of the other.

GRRM has actually stated that his writing style involves a lot of details but he doesn't care if (unimportant) details are changed. He has no expectations in that direction.

If you are arguing that you want the series to be 100% faithful to the book, ok. You aren't going to get what you want but its a point of view. Going on and on about genetics is just weird though.

No but considering that this story is so realistic, for there to be distinct seperate looking populations there would have to be somewhere for them to devolop. Which is the Summer Isles or Westeros or other locations. Once they arrive in a place the interbreed, there are indegnous Afrcan people today in Italy although at one time there were Africans that interbred with the gene pool. So it is unrealistic to have a serving wench that is black or asian in Westeros if her parents were not foreign
.

What is this got to do with anything? :lol: Some sort of genetic lesson?

If Davos father/mother/grandfather/grandmother was from Yi Ti then he may look like a Yi Tian (or whatever). There is nothing intrinsically stopping the TV series from making Davos look Yi Tian (or Summer Islander or Sothoryosi).

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Lets face it, yall just want to include diversity into this show, regardless of what the source material says or even real world comparissons. So I guess I am stuck with the best fantasy seiries of all time that is LILY WHITE, LOTR. I wonder if in the hobbit if they will make Gandalf a person of color, it would be more inclusive, or maybe a couple of the dwarves, would that really take anything away from the story. I would hate to make the Hobbit lily white. African Hobbitts rejoice.

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Lets face it, yall just want to include diversity into this show, regardless of what the source material says or even real world comparissons. So I guess I am stuck with the best fantasy seiries of all time that is LILY WHITE, LOTR. I wonder if in the hobbit if they will make Gandalf a person of color, it would be more inclusive, or maybe a couple of the dwarves, would that really take anything away from the story. I would hate to make the Hobbit lily white. African Hobbitts rejoice.

:shocked: Yep. You've totally sussed us out.

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I wonder if in the hobbit if they will make Gandalf a person of color...

The WHITE wizard?

That would be something.... :lol:

Well, I guess in the Hobbit he would still be Gandalf the Grey, so there is some wiggle room there... ;)

Maybe it is just me, but I don't notice race when I watch something. Are people watching something and suddenly realize "There are no minority actors/actresses in this..."?

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So I guess I am stuck with the best fantasy seiries of all time that is LILY WHITE, LOTR.

That must make it easier to sleep at night.

I'm not sure why you are talking about real world comparisions since people have already shown you that you were wrong about your preconceptions there also.

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BTW I think it is pretty clear that the people of Dorne are of Caucasion appearnce, just some have darker shades of skin. They are fiesty, its pretty obvious they are supposed to resemble the Spanish, or Southern Italians.

Well, luckily we have an explicit reference to check this.

http://awoiaf.wester...index.php/Dorne

According to Daeron I, who recorded his wars in Dorne, there were three sorts of Dornishmen. There were the 'salty' Dornishmen who lived along the coastlines, which were generally thin and dark, with olive skin and black hair. The 'sandy' Dornishmen lived in the deserts and river valleys, with dark brown skin and tended to wear long, bright scarfs around their helms to keep the sun off. The 'stony' Dornishmen lived in the Red Mountains, large and fair, they still contained the blood of the Andals and the First Men, usually with blond or brown hair and freckles. The salty Dornishmen have the most Rhoynish blood, the stony Dornishmen the least.

So: stony Dornishmen are pretty much straight Caucasian, salty Dornishmen are of Mediterranean appearance (or 'swarthy' since that's the term you seem to prefer), but sandy Dornishmen have considerable Rhoynish blood and have 'dark brown' skin. Therefore there's a reasonable chance that any given Dornishman in KL could accurately be portrayed by a black actor.

Everytime a character sees a Summer Islander they notice it, or at least when we are introduced to one, they think what black skin they have. So that means, one may assume that they are rare.

Fallacious reasoning, I'm afraid. It's the classic 'all swans are white', inductive reasoning mistaken for deductive reasoning problem. We're introduced to some specific Summer Islander characters and yes, their skin tone is noted - as things like the hair colour of various characters (e.g. Lannisters or Baratheons) is noted. But the notion that this proves that no other black characters are ever seen in the background is a further step, which we have no reason to take. As Eef points out, you're filling in those blanks yourself: which is fine, but please don't suggest that GRRM did it.

And yes there direct decednents very well may look like Summer Islanders, however after a generation or two they will become part of the regular pool of people. And I have never read anything about a vast migration of Summer Islanders moving to Kings Landing, and the sailors that would have children with the whores is very possible, but we are talking about a small quanity of people here. And within a generation or two the bastards would look like the rest of the population.

This is a very bizarre bit of reasoning that assumes that A, the effect of foreign input into the KL gene pool is a one-off rather than a constant and B, that genes work in a way that they, er, don't. (Of course there's no 'genetics' as such in Martinworld, or the Great Families would not be able to maintain their characteristic looks: but the way 'blood' works makes rapid homogenisation of the KL population even less likely.)

And besides, the stories are written about white people, if you don't like that then take that up with Martin

Wow. You know, someday I might, because I think he'll find the implication of this remark kind of funny (if appalling). I'm 100% sure that he did not set out to write about 'lily white people'. I'm also 100% sure that he wouldn't be bothered in the slightest about a mixed race actor being given the role of Davos, or Salladhor Saan, or Vargo Hoat, or Amory Lorch. Or pretty much any role, really.

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It is truly amazing how politically correct and inclusive the Western world has become. To think that large numbers of you on this forum actually believe, that there were black Africans and east Asians in Western Europe. I am amzazed. Honestly what little ethinic historical knowlege yall must have. The Chineses and some fabled black African empire must have really had the naval capabilities to sail around the world and land in a London port or a venetian port. Jews are a perfect example of a non-European people breeding into a populatoin and taking on there appearnce. Or the Mygars in Hungary. There is a book about black people discovering Europe, I bet some of yall would really get turned on about that.

And the Dornish point, the descriptions sounds an aweful like Northern and Southern Italians to me, if you have ever been to Italy or Sicily.

The entire point I have been trying to make is that there are places in Martin's world for non-white characters, tons of places. The Dorthraki, Sun Islanders and others. So why on earth would people want non-white characters in Westeros? If they are not directly mentioned. It makes no sense other than in the modern world, people feel as if there is not a token black man in every other show it is some how not representave. AND If the color of the extras does not matter to people, because you don't notice those things, then why is there a forum dedicated to it? I think that many of yall are anti-European,anti-white with "lily-white" comments, and wanting to have all of these non-whites playing parts.

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(last several posts)

Fetch the brooms, I am calling shenanigans. :bs:

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Lord Raul,

Do you realise how your posts are coming across? Are you trolling?

To think that large numbers of you on this forum actually believe, that there were black Africans and east Asians in Western Europe.

Bizarro point number one. Are you saying that we thought millions of Africans and Asians were wandering around Western Europe in the Middle Ages? Or are you saying that we thought there was 1 African and 1 Asian?

So why on earth would people want non-white characters in Westeros?

Bizarro point number two. You are saying that there is not one non-white character in Westeros?

It makes no sense other than in the modern world, people feel as if there is not a token black man in every other show it is some how not representave.

It depends what the show is about doesn't it?

AND If the color of the extras does not matter to people, because you don't notice those things, then why is there a forum dedicated to it?

Bizarro point number three. There is a forum dedicated to the colour of extras?

I think that many of yall are anti-European,anti-white with "lily-white" comments, and wanting to have all of these non-whites playing parts.

Bizarro point number 4. Yes. All of them. You've convinced me. I want all the cast to be Asian and African! :lol:

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I hope Lord Raul is pulling our leg and deliberately trolling because I find is arguments laughable and bordering on offensive. I would hate to think he's serious.

There's no reason some characters can't be shown to have some mixed ancestry or deviate a bit differently from the book. I don't really care at all as long as the actor is sufficiently talented enough to do the role well. I do wish GRRM had made the main cast of his books a bit more ethnically diverse because I would have found that to be a refreshing change from the way most fantasy stories are, but oh well. We're getting a main cast that's going to be 99% Caucasian anyway, so Lord Raul really doesn't have anything to fear in the end.

Here's one I'll throw out here as a possibility if we're lucky enough to get as enough seasons for it: Archmaester Marwyn. I suspect he's going to play a bigger role in the later books.

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First post and for some reason this is where I felt the need to jump right in to things.

I'm not a fan of diversity for kumbaya let's all get along sake.

Everyone has their own vision of what Westeros might look like based on the descriptions we received from GRRM. I think regions like Winterfell, River lands, people from Casterly Rock and the Vale would look silly if they were just throwing random races around for the sake of being politically correct and appeasing people's need for diversity. Based on the geography and description of most people living in those regions, we're usually only told of how someone looks when they don't fit in with the typical build/ face/ color of those who have grown up in those regions.

However, for everyone who needs that diversity, there areplenty of places to get it from, port cities especially, like King's Landing, Oldtown. And across the Narrow Sea port towns like Braavos, and of course Quarth.

I personally think it would look stupid if Winterfell's residents looked like a UN meeting.

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I personally think it would look stupid if Winterfell's residents looked like a UN meeting.

Of course it would and and I don't see anyone arguing for that at all. I'm glad though that you acknowledge that there's places in GRRM's stories where it'd be perfectly logical to show some diversity.

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Of course it would and and I don't see anyone arguing for that at all. I'm glad though that you acknowledge that there's places in GRRM's stories where it'd be perfectly logical to show some diversity.

Oh definitely, port cities, across the sea, the Dothraki. Just something about the North, strikes a specific image in my mind, just like a city like Quarth brings about something completely different. I think climate and geography play a huge part, just as much as location.

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Lord Raul, Do you realise how your posts are coming across? Are you trolling?
No, just racist.

Surely it doesn't surprise you to see a few of them pop up now and again? :) It seems pretty clear by now that he comes by his opinions honestly, however distasteful they are.

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Absolutely, I couldn't agree with you more there. Welcome to board by the way!

Thanks, big fan of the books, long time lurker. I figure it's about time I joined in the discussion here before the show starts and I get lumped in with show noobs. :dunce:

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Thanks, big fan of the books, long time lurker. I figure it's about time I joined in the discussion here before the show starts and I get lumped in with show noobs. :dunce:
Noob! Hell, I'm a noob too. Luckily, it's a very cool site, and I don't think anybody cares :D.

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