Opportunities to cast non-white actors

[The Fan]

The only non-white characters that should be in Westeros, would be: Merchants/Sailors, Diplomats and Political Exiles. That is it. They would be oddities and rarities and thus there would be no need for extras, or semi-major characters other than those from the outside world.

Westeros has a history of at least 12,000 years (since Dawn age), possibly much longer. It is ridiculous to assert that in that enormous span of time that people of different heritages did not intermix, conquer, etc., no matter how far off the reservation one might be.

Merchants/Sailors, Diplomats and Political Exiles would have come and settled and had families and plausibly hundreds of generations of descendants.

[TrueMetis]

Westeros has a history of at least 12,000 years (since Dawn age), possibly much longer. It is ridiculous to assert that in that enormous span of time that people of different heritages did not intermix, conquer, etc., no matter how far off the reservation one might be.

Merchants/Sailors, Diplomats and Political Exiles would have come and settled and had families and plausibly hundreds of generations of descendants.

Especially since we know that's exactly how humans got to Westeros.

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

Ugh. Can we stop feeding the troll? Raul, if your that passionate about this subject create a seperate thread. Stop dominating the conversation with this race obsession diatribe.

[smegma]

Ugh. Can we stop feeding the troll? Raul, if your that passionate about this subject create a seperate thread. Stop dominating the conversation with this race obsession diatribe.

Once they said that the gay sex was only being done to appeal to the anti-American liberals, I knew this person was just a troll or a person that is otherwise unworthy of discussion.

[Padraig]

Once they said that the gay sex was only being done to appeal to the anti-American liberals, I knew this person was just a troll or a person that is otherwise unworthy of discussion.

Yup. Its all got rather lame. Time to move on. :)

[The Fan]

Such a nice thread too, (mostly)full of clever thoughts and insightful "what-ifs". Shame about the derailment.

[Lord Raul]

Westeros has a history of at least 12,000 years (since Dawn age), possibly much longer. It is ridiculous to assert that in that enormous span of time that people of different heritages did not intermix, conquer, etc., no matter how far off the reservation one might be.

Merchants/Sailors, Diplomats and Political Exiles would have come and settled and had families and plausibly hundreds of generations of descendants.

What fools, I never got personal and even carefully explained what racism is, yet some of you are so sesnistive that you still cry racism. AND Fan of Ice and Fire, perhaps you have not read my previous threads, because when people move to other locations they interbreed with the host population. So they the peasents would all look about the same. That is a fact, not just some extremist over here. So if for everyone was living together for 12,000 years they would creat a new racial group!!! Every see a Middle Easterner? People of mixed race backgrounds, when mixed, create a new group. So of the millions of Africans that went to Arabia and Turkey in over 1,000 years, they have not kept their ancient features, they mix. Now there are more recent arrivals, but I am speaking of the ancient ones. Romans had blacks in the city, and they bred intot he existing population, there are not indegenous Africans in Italy.

And Ser-Not-why are you saying that I made this race obsessed? This channel was here long before I joined, I have if anything made this conversation more enlightend, instead of being some hippie who suffers from white guilt. You all are the race obsessed ones, because you ALL ARE WANTING TO CHANGE the racial make up of the show. I am only defending the integratiy of the work. I wonder how educated some of you are, and to what instituions becuase this is a very closed minded forum.

My goodness, it is not homophobic to not want to see homosexual sex on a television show, when in the books it was only vaguely hinted at!! Again if Renly had done Flowers in the book, I would not care, but HBO seems to think they need to add Gay Male sex to every show, Sopranos, Big Love, The Wire, Six Feet Under. It is fine if it is an origianl show but in the books they never explicit. And as far as the Tyrion scenes, and any other hetro scenes, those type of sex scense were there. Quit being a radical child, just because I would like to stay more in line with the story and not try and add all of this PC junk.

[Maltaran]

there are not indegenous Africans in Italy.

I have to disagree with you there

[Padraig]

Best not to respond to him. He'll get tired of trolling eventually.

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

I don't think he's actually trolling; he believes it's all white guilt, not reality.

[Abaddon]

Agreed it's not trolling. Sometimes, a spade is a spade.

[Padraig]

It's possible.

Not that it matters either way. He is not really interested in discussing anything. Just using people's respones as a springboard to rant about whatever crosses his mind.

[Res ipsa loquitur]

If we take a step back, and like I said there are various ethnicities in the Seven Kingdoms, that all have a European appearnce. They have different cultures and appiteits, just like Euorope. Which is not just some plain old Anglo Saxon middle aged white guy. I would not call Raegar boring old white guy or Robbert Baratheon.

The only non-white characters that should be in Westeros, would be: Merchants/Sailors, Diplomats and Political Exiles. That is it. They would be oddities and rarities and thus there would be no need for extras, or semi-major characters other than those from the outside world.

And in the real world, I think you might be confused when you are looking at a trade route map, it doesnt mean that merchants from Africa travled all the way up to Europe or somewhere else, it just means that there goods were put on a route, and they were traded between merchant to merchant until they finally arrived. The Chinese used the silk road, but Chinese traders did not travel all the way to Germany to deliver silk. There were hundreds of middle men inbetween.

Interesting take on things you have, Lord Raul. However, there is no Africa in Westeros, so that is likely the reason GRRM did not refer to his characters as "African" or "African American". What GRRM DID do is made note of the MANY skin tones a wide variety of people have. And any character described as "dark skinned" or likewise synonyms can indeed be played by a black person. As black people, like white people...like ALL people, come in assorted color variates.

YES, the Summer Islanders were noted for their particularly black skin, but its absurd to think they were the ONLY folks in Westeros with dark colored skin.

You are correct that GRRM loosely based his fantasy series on the style of medieval Europe. LOOSELY. You are also correct that black people were not commonly seen in Europe at that time. However, Mr Martins "borrowing" of Europe's medieval period WAS loosely based, and so Mr Martin tossed the racism that was prevalent in Europe at that time, despite who blew King Henry's trumpet. So, its also quite logical that there are MORE dark skinned and other skin tones in Westeros because Westeros lacked Europe's racist views.

And as to Melisandre, her REDNESS is a defining character; its associated with her hair, and with her eyes especially. Wigs and contact lenses do exist, and so there is no reason a black actress could not play that part. Especially if its posited that she came by that red hair by some artificial, magical means.

[Res ipsa loquitur]

Additionally, from a scientific standpoint alone, there should be more dark skinned people in Westeros than there are on Earth.

Its posited that the gene or mutation for white skin arose when people migrated out of Africa; migrations were for numerous causes, among them, climate changes. As people migrated north, and it became colder, adaptation created / evolved that white skin tone.

Summers in Westeros last YEARS. So do winters. So, wouldnt it seem logical that the evolutionary pressure to adapt white skin for whatever reason it occurred just would not have existed due to continuous warm weather? (Continuous cold weather also happened, true).

I know this was a bit off topic, and I beg all your forgivenesses, but it made sense to rebut Lord Raul's argument with some seeming science. If there is another thread for the Science of Westeros, that would be cool.

[Lord Raul]

Say whatever you like about me, however I have said nothing that is controversial, nothing. I am just advocating for the characters that are written as white, be white, and those that are written as being black are black. That is all. No blacks in Riverrun, or the North, but in Kings Landing if they are non-indegneous that is fine. There are black people in the books, and the should be in the show, but they have a homeland. And no indegnous white people in the Summer Isles. It is written in the book that way. I find nothing ubsurd or Troll worthy in that viewpoint. Nothing at all. I just am not some brainwashed drone who thinks that more black people might like Game of Thrones more if we just included them in a few more scenes.

And then try and justify having black people in Westeros because, there is documented evidence a few black people in London. On a final note, I suggest everyone try and be a little more original and think outside the box and do your own research. Don't call people racist or homophobic because you do not agree with them about the racial casting in a show. I understand that most Fantasy readers are liberal and live in a fantasy world, but please understand that none of these stories of knight and kings and dragons that we all love would not be possible if a bunch of germanic knights had not give us these influences.

AND as far as THETHINGSPEAKSFORITSELF is concerned, I fear you are confused my friend. Racism really did not come into existince until the 19th century with the rise of Darwinsim. What you might be thinking of is a belief in cultural superiority. That is not racism. I suggest all of you do a little reasearch on racism and what race is or isn't. And your theory on how skin tone emerged, which is a legitimant scientific theory, does not apply in Martin's world. We have detailed descriptions of what the people look like in each Kingdom. So I suggest you go back and do a little re-reading.

Here is a nice wikipedia article on racism, so you fools can know what it is exactly you are calling me, and then realize that I am not being racist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism

[Padraig]

On a final note...

Cool. :thumbsup:

[TrueMetis]

AND as far as THETHINGSPEAKSFORITSELF is concerned, I fear you are confused my friend. Racism really did not come into existince until the 19th century with the rise of Darwinsim. What you might be thinking of is a belief in cultural superiority.

Alright time to play troll or idiot. Place your bets folks, I'll hold the money because I've met to many of both to get into this shit again.

[CelticBrennus]

Racism really did not come into existince until the 19th century with the rise of Darwinsim.

Race as a concept and racism as a result is more of an early 17th century invention actually.

[Spastic Plastic]

Racism didn't really exist in medieval Europe. Sure, religious bigotry was rampant, but not racism. Jews and Muslims were hated because they were "infidels". On the other hand, black people were viewed as exotic novelties, and were usually received well.

Racism really began when the Europeans colonized the Americas and had to deal with huge non-white populations that were different from them in many ways.

[Res ipsa loquitur]

AND as far as THETHINGSPEAKSFORITSELF is concerned, I fear you are confused my friend. Racism really did not come into existince until the 19th century with the rise of Darwinsim. What you might be thinking of is a belief in cultural superiority. That is not racism. I suggest all of you do a little reasearch on racism and what race is or isn't. And your theory on how skin tone emerged, which is a legitimant scientific theory, does not apply in Martin's world. We have detailed descriptions of what the people look like in each Kingdom. So I suggest you go back and do a little re-reading.

Here is a nice wikipedia article on racism, so you fools can know what it is exactly you are calling me, and then realize that I am not being racist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism

Actually, it is you who are insisting that GRRM's Westeros was modeled after medieval Europe; Europe, just to refresh your memory, is on Earth. This planet. So, it appears to be you who insists that the evolutionary and biologic mechanisms that occurred to make skin tones on Earth are in opeeration on the fictionalized world of Westeros; thus provoking your apparent outrage that black people may be both common and numerous in George RR Martin's creation.

And what, at least I am objecting to, I cant speak, er, write for others, is your assertion that NO character is black unless specifically stated as such, and your seeming intent to LIMIT the numbers of black people who may dwell there by opposing their portrayal by black people.

Given Mr Martins generous use of the phrase "dark skinned", dark skin can EASILY mean black. One may even say they could be synonymous.

SPASTIC PLASTIC, thank you for your clarification, however I am not so sure I agree as I believe that keeping a black person as an "exotic" is a form of racism in and of itself. People are not pets. BUT I also do understand what you were trying to convey there.