U.S. Politics 19

[Swordfish]

That's just.... ugh. It'd be the same to argue that for companies that give out year-end bonuses that they are defacto cutting the pay of their employees by not sustaining the higher income brought in by the bonus. That reasoning is barking mad. If you want to argue that the tax cuts should be extended, then do so. But saying that allowing these meant-to-be-temporary tax cuts to expire is the same as raising taxes is just <insert appropriate expletives> stupid.

No. It would be like companies raising employees salaries for ten years, and then suddenly lowering them again.

Are you honestly telling me that if you had a salary increase for ten years, and then your pay got reduced to pre raise levels, that you wouldn't consider that a pay cut?

Sorry, I just don't believe that's at all true.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

TP,

It's semantics. At the end of the day if all the cuts expire everyone who pays taxes has a higher tax bill.

Ser Poss.,

You absolutely right about paying down the debt during "boom" periods. The only President in the last 80 years to even attempt to pay down the Debt was Clinton. Why do you think we can borrow money forever without consequence?

[TerraPrime]

No. It would be like companies raising employees salaries for ten years, and then suddenly lowering them again.

Are you honestly telling me that if you had a salary increase for ten years, and then your pay got reduced to pre raise levels, that you wouldn't consider that a pay cut?

Sorry, I just don't believe that's at all true.

Except, of course, when I got that 10-year pay raise, I was told that it would end in 10 years.

[Fez]

Why do you think we can borrow money forever without consequence?

Inflation: It's good for more than just wiping out your savings!

[Swordfish]

Except, of course, when I got that 10-year pay raise, I was told that it would end in 10 years.

Which doesn't answer the question.

[TerraPrime]

Which doesn't answer the question.

But it does.

But I will spell it out for you.

If I were told a pay raise is temporary, then when it goes away, I'd not consider it to be a pay cut. Clear enough?

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

If you want to argue that the tax cuts should be extended, then do so. But saying that allowing these meant-to-be-temporary tax cuts to expire is the same as raising taxes is just <insert appropriate expletives> stupid.

Okay. It's not a tax increase. It just has the exact same effect on how much you pay in taxes as a tax increase.

[Swordfish]

But it does.

But I will spell it out for you.

If I were told a pay raise is temporary, then when it goes away, I'd not consider it to be a pay cut. Clear enough?

Ha. Yes it's clear.

It's also bullshit.

If a pay raise goes away after ten years, that's a pay cut. Period.

If you guys have to spend so much time making a pedantic argument like 'taxes going up does not equal a tax increase', then it might be time to re-evaluate the underlying assumptions that make such a ridiculous argument so important.

[TerraPrime]

TP,

It's semantics. At the end of the day if all the cuts expire everyone who pays taxes has a higher tax bill.

But it's not just semantics. What you're saying is simply untrue. Allowing to expire a set of tax cuts that were meant to be temporary is not the same as raising taxes.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

TP,

I'll go with what FLOW said it's semantically different but to the individual taxpayer the effect is identical to a tax increase.

[Swordfish]

But it's not just semantics. What you're saying is simply untrue. Allowing to expire a set of tax cuts that were meant to be temporary is not the same as raising taxes.

Why not? Are taxes not raised in that hypothetical?

you keep saying it like it's true, but not really explaining why anyone in their right mind should believe that a rise in tax rates is not the same as a tax raise, other than pointing out that we knew the tax raise was coming.

[alguien]

Odd to me that some people don't seem to understand the meaning of temporary? :dunno:

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

Taking my foot off the accelerator isn't the same thing as me braking. Similarly, letting a temporary tax cut end is not the same thing as increasing taxes.

[TerraPrime]

If a pay raise goes away after ten years, that's a pay cut. Period.

But it's not a pay raise. It's a bonus.

If you guys have to spend so much time making a pedantic argument like 'taxes going up does not equal a tax increase', then it might be time to re-evaluate the underlying assumptions that make such a ridiculous argument so important.

I know why it's important for us to argue this: we can't stand the fact that the fiscal hawks are disingenuous hacks.

Similarly, if this is such a non-issue, then why do the conservative voices keep portraying it as a tax raise?

Answer: Because by lying about the nature of this tax policy, they can generate support.

[Swordfish]

Odd to me that some people don't seem to understand the meaning of temporary? :dunno:

I'm equally puzzled by people who don't understand the words 'raise' and 'increase'.

:dunno:

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Aoife,

Is the end result of a temporary tax reduction ending any different than a tax increase to the individuals paying those taxes?

[alguien]

I'm equally puzzled by people who don't understand the words 'raise' and 'increase'.

:dunno:

So tax rates will be higher than they were 10 years ago?

Are you saying they're not temporary?

[TerraPrime]

TP,

I'll go with what FLOW said it's semantically different but to the individual taxpayer the effect is identical to a tax increase.

So what, we coddle every bit of unsubstantiated and wrong impression about our tax policy? That's the basis for law-making?

I mean, yes, people will be paying more in taxes than they had in the past 10 years. But that's the nature of the law that was passed. If they want the pay cuts to be permanent, write it in a form of law that is not subject to sunset clauses. If Congress votes, again, to extend the tax cuts, then we're simply extending a temporary boon. If Congress votes to halt the tax cuts, which I hope they do and wish that they had, then it'd be stopping a temporary bonus.

[Swordfish]

But it's not a pay raise. It's a bonus.

How is it a bonus?

It's a reduction in a tax rate. That's obviously more equivalent to a pay raise than to any bonus model I've ever seen.

I know why it's important for us to argue this: we can't stand the fact that the fiscal hawks are disingenuous hacks.

Similarly, if this is such a non-issue, then why do the conservative voices keep portraying it as a tax raise?

Because that's what it is.

After all, taxes would go up. Hence the 'raise' part.

It's not a tax cut, right? It's not a 'taxes stay the same', right?

Answer: Because by lying about the nature of this tax policy, they can generate support.

Ha. What kind of support?

Are you saying that people don't care about their taxes actually going up as long as they believe the pedantic argument that it isn't a tax increase?

you guys are really willing to twist yourselves into pretzels over this.

So tax rates will be higher than they were 10 years ago?

Are you saying they're not temporary?

Nope. They will be higher than they are now.

Hence the 'raise' part.

Whether or not they are temporary remains to be seen.

So what, we coddle every bit of unsubstantiated and wrong impression about our tax policy? That's the basis for law-making?

I mean, yes, people will be paying more in taxes than they had in the past 10 years. But that's the nature of the law that was passed.

Right. People were given a tax reduction, and after ten years, people are potentially subject to a tax increase.

Glad you agree.

Or are you arguing that the tax reduction was not a tax reduction, since it was temporary?

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

Aoife,

Is the end result of a temporary tax reduction ending any different than a tax increase to the individuals paying those taxes?

Yes, unless they really were told it was going to be permanent. If I get a one-year raise for 2011, and I'm told it's only for one year, I shouldn't be surprised when my salary goes back to its 2010 level. My pay "went down" year on year, but I knew it was temporary and I couldn't rely on the extra money for anything.