More union busting in Wisconsin

[Shryke]

Ahh, so yet more attempts to undermine people's rights.

Those Wisconsin GOPers. Quality people.

[Shryke]

And more proof, if you really needed it, about what this is all about:

Public employees have said they would agree to concessions Walker wants that would amount to an 8 percent pay cut on average, but they want to retain their collective bargaining rights. One Republican senator also has floated an alternative that would make the elimination of those rights temporary.

Walker has repeatedly rejected both offers, saying local governments and school districts can't be hamstrung by the often lengthy collective bargaining process. He says they need to have more flexibility to deal with up to $1 billion in cuts he will propose in his budget next week and into the future.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_wisconsin_budget_unions

Walker said not passing the bill by Friday would make even deeper cuts necessary and possibly result in laying off 1,500 workers over the next four months.

*cough*Bullshit*cough*

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

And more proof, if you really needed it, about what this is all about:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_wisconsin_budget_unions

*cough*Bullshit*cough*

Shryke, I'm honestly curious as to why you see that as "bullshit". We've already apparently agreed that there is a projected deficit of $2.2B even if all those cuts in that other article happen. He's saying that he's going to be proposing, as one means to balance that state budget, cuts of more than $1B for local governments and schools. Presumably, you believe him on that score.

Now if he's going to be cutting that much money from those entities, then they're going to have to make some cuts as well from their budgets that are now going to have this $1B hole. I can understand you disagreeing with cuts rather than tax increases, or believing that the cuts should come from elsewhere. But it's hardly bullshit for him to say that giving those entities the power to make cuts from public employee wages/benefits makes their job easier. I can understand believing that's a bad idea, but it's not bullshit

[Shryke]

Shryke, I'm honestly curious as to why you see that as "bullshit". We've already apparently agreed that there is a projected deficit of $2.2B even if all those cuts in that other article happen. He's saying that he's going to be proposing, as one means to balance that state budget, cuts of more than $1B for local governments and schools. Presumably, you believe him on that score.

Now if he's going to be cutting that much money from those entities, then they're going to have to make some cuts as well from their budgets that are now going to have this $1B hole. I can understand you disagreeing with cuts rather than tax increases, or believing that the cuts should come from elsewhere. But it's hardly bullshit for him to say that giving those entities the power to make cuts from public employee wages/benefits makes their job easier. I can understand believing that's a bad idea, but it's not bullshit

You obviously didn't read the statement carefully/at all.

He's not saying "We need to make cuts". He's saying "If we don't pass this by Friday, even more cuts will be needed". That's the bullshit. There's nothing about passing it before Friday that would necessitates deep cuts and major lay-offs in the next few months if it doesn't happen.

It's just a threat wrapped in bullshit.

And his statements above that cover pretty clearly what's going on. He wants to permanently strip unions of collective bargaining rights so he can hit them with even harder measures and worse deals next year. And he's threatening them with massive lay-offs if they don't bend over and take it.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

You obviously didn't read the statement carefully/at all.

He's not saying "We need to make cuts". He's saying "If we don't pass this by Friday, even more cuts will be needed". That's the bullshit. There's nothing about passing it before Friday that would necessitates deep cuts and major lay-offs in the next few months if it doesn't happen.

Did you read the whole article? I saw this:

The emergency plan is meant to address this year's $137 million shortfall and start dealing with the $3.6 billion hole expected by mid-2013. The benefits concessions would amount to $30 million this year, but the largest savings Walker proposed comes from refinancing debt to save $165 million.

That portion must be done by Friday for bonds to be refinanced in time to realize the savings by June 30, the end of this fiscal year.

Walker said not passing the bill by Friday would make even deeper cuts necessary and possibly result in laying off 1,500 workers over the next four months.

Now, I don't know if the part about the refinancing is true because I don't know what terms have been worked out with the bondholders. But I suspect you don't either.

And his statements above that cover pretty clearly what's going on. He wants to permanently strip unions of collective bargaining rights so he can hit them with even harder measures and worse deals next year.

I don't think it's him tha is proposing additional cuts next year. I think he's saying that local governments and schools are going to be the ones who have to make those cuts.

And he's threatening them with massive lay-offs if they don't bend over and take it.

Well, there is a $2.2B (at least) shortfall. And because of the terms of existing agreements, he can't wait until the last minute to lay people off, so notices have to be sent out significantly ahead of time. If at least some of that shortfall is going to covered by reducing payroll, you either have to reduce pay or layoff employees.

[Shryke]

I don't think it's him tha is proposing additional cuts next year. I think he's saying that local governments and schools are going to be the ones who have to make those cuts.

Well, there is a $2.2B (at least) shortfall. And because of the terms of existing agreements, he can't wait until the last minute to lay people off, so notices have to be sent out significantly ahead of time.

There is a shortfall yes. And it obviously needs to be dealt with in some manner.

But that's not the issue here. Walker wants to permanently cripple union's collective bargaining rights (he won't support a temporary suspension and calls it "kicking the can down the road"). And he wants to do this because Unions make cutting the benefits/wages/etc of his workers harder. He flat out says this: "Walker has repeatedly rejected both offers, saying local governments and school districts can't be hamstrung by the often lengthy collective bargaining process"

Basically, collective bargaining actually involves bargaining and he doesn't want to have to do that. It "takes too much time" to not just ram through whatever deal he feels is best with no input from the union members.

He then says they will need to be "more flexible" to deal with the budget problems. Indicating the reason he wants them permanent: Because he wants to do future slashing of public employee benefits/wages/etc without having to negotiate or have anyone stop him.

The whole thing is that if collective bargaining rights remain, he can't slash the budget willy-nilly to make ends meet. His problem with unions is that they do their job and represent their members.

[Shryke]

Also, Daniels folds:

Gov. Mitch Daniels signaled this afternoon that Republicans should drop the right-to-work bill that has brought the Indiana House to a standstill for two days and imperiled other measures.

Daniels told reporters this afternoon that he expected House Democrats will return to work if the bill dies. It would be unfortunate if other bills are caught up in the turmoil, he said.

http://www.indystar.com/article/20110222/NEWS/110222004/Daniels-Time-dump-right-work-bill?odyssey=mod|breaking|text|IndyStar.com

[Arthmail]

From what i have read, the shortfall is of Walker's own doing.

And again, cutting measures such as the ones proposed are such an obvious grab at straws, when the fundamental problem lies a little deeper. Namely, this insistent and misguided need on the right to do anything but tax those that can afford it.

That being said, there is an interesting notion from Paul Krugman that basically states that the unions, while imperfect, remain the only real power left to the middle class to counter the massive lobbying industry and efforts that those with the deepest pockets are able to put forth. Assuming that this entire grab is about fiscal responsibility is bullshit, and those that believe along those lines are lying to yourselves. This is little more than an attempt to, once more, weaken the rights of workers by smashing their strongest voice.

A voice that you have probably enjoyed any time you took a holiday, or enjoyed a weekend, or when as a child you didn't have to work in a fucking mine.

[Shryke]

It's also an attempt to weaken the left and the Democratic Party since Unions are one of their largest contributors and rarely contribute to the GOP.

And FYI, his tax cuts and the like weren't the cause of the budget shortfall. They just add to it.

[Edward the Great]

they feel that public employees have been soaking the states for too many benefits for too long.

the implication of this position is that everyone should be reduced to absolute immiseration, just like private-sector employees. w00t!

People who don't have government jobs resent the privileges of those who do have them. That's why the Republicans won the election. For once, I'm on the Republicans side.

Unfortunately the only way to get paid what you are worth in modern American society is to migrate from city to city for the best pay. If you nail yourself down, which is essential for raising a family, you'll get wage compressed no matter how talented you are.

There is something that Paul Krugman and I could agree on, installing Canadian style banking regulation in the U.S. Has he ever discussed doing this? It's a fiat currency system that has weathered the current GFC and the original Great Depression rather well. I'd prefer to abolish fiat currency altogether, but that may not be a realistic goal. Have any of you seen "Inside Job?" Obviously written from a left of center perspective, it is the movie's contention that the economics profession is part of the problem. On that I wholeheartedly agree.

[Inigima]

People who don't have government jobs resent the privileges of those who do have them. That's why the Republicans won the election. For once, I'm on the Republicans side.

Not only is this a preposterous claim, but see the study I linked. Government employees are actually financially disadvantaged versus private employees, not the other way around. So congrats on siding with people who don't know what the fuck they're talking about, I guess.

[Jon Sprunk]

Not at all.

It's a well established fact that the EVIL RICH and BIG CORPORATION are what is wrong with the country and what is responsible for the economy.

Indeed.

Um, SOME big corporations WERE responsible for the financial collapse of 2008. You might want to read up on that. Or you can just believe the lie that poor people were responsible, because they have, you know, SO MUCH power over the economy.

[ThinkerX]

What was this about Walker being in the pocket of the Koch brothers?

[The Progressive]

What was this about Walker being in the pocket of the Koch brothers?

The link between Walker and the Koch brothers:

http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/02/wisconsin-scott-walker-koch-brothers#

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plum-line/2011/02/americans_for_prosperity_to_ru.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/22/us/22koch.html?_r=1

What are the tinfoil sites saying about the Wisconsin union protest by the way, thinkerx?

[The Progressive]

Some info on the status of Wisconsin's public pension fund ......... which is actually quite healthy despite the filthy lies being regurgitated here by teabaggers:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/22/wisconsin-pension-fund-among-healthiest-us_n_826709.html

Wisconsin's pension fund for public employees is among the nation's strongest, according to a report by the nonpartisan Pew Research Center.

The Pew report, issued last year, concluded that Wisconsin is a "national leader in managing its long-term liabilities for both pension and retiree health care." Walker has cited the fund's lack of sustainability as grounds for his plan to revoke collective bargaining rights for state employees

[Edward the Great]

Not only is this a preposterous claim, but see the study I linked. Government employees are actually financially disadvantaged versus private employees, not the other way around. So congrats on siding with people who don't know what the fuck they're talking about, I guess.

Look who's talking.

Um, SOME big corporations WERE responsible for the financial collapse of 2008. You might want to read up on that. Or you can just believe the lie that poor people were responsible, because they have, you know, SO MUCH power over the economy.

It wasn't just poor people taking out irresponsible mortgages. Upper middle class people who I work with and with much more seniority than I have done the same. And I look at these people sometimes and think "if I were at your pay grade, I wouldn't know what to do with the money that I made."

But let's face the truth, the GFC was by and large a failure of the investor class and the economics profession. But what do we do with that? Bailout the people who deserve the lion's share of the blame, fight two overseas wars while keeping taxes low, and take a shot at yet another entitlement program. The whole of American society has become a game of take power, fuck over your enemies, and take no responsibility for your failures. Better yet, accuse your opponents of being treasonous.

[davos]

Work and life didn't give me a chance to make it down to the Capital today. I did get there Yesterday evening for a few hours. While I can't attest to events there today as when I left yesterday and by all accounts that I give any credence toen these remain peaceful protests. There are a few signs I think go a bit to far and cringe when I see. There are a few folks that end up saying dumb or unfortunate things in their enthusiasm. I've yet to see or hear anything threatening violence even implicitly. I also have yet to see any any intimidation except that which maybe created by a large number of people gathered together vocally expressing the same opinion. Generally the protesters are being friendly, welcoming, and helpful. They clean up after themselves constantly and are respectful to the police officers there for crowd control and security.

I listened to Walker's fire-side chat. While he showed some real chops as an orator the reasonable tone of his presentation came across as hollow. In the end the message was that he was going to get exactly what he wants. If we don't bend over and take it soon he then started listing the ways he would hurt us until we do. Mind you that is my admittedly bias paraphrase. As I said Walker did a good job delivery what in the end remained the same hard-ass message he has stuck to the whole time.

At this point I have no idea what is going to happen. I continue to fully support the protesters and will continue to take part as much as can as long as they continue. I'm not someone who would be effected by the bill, at least directly, but am one that thinks he's gone to far. The argument that public workers should have to pay what their private sector counter parts do for their benefits doesn't stand up. One can as easily argue that we need to improve the situation in the private sector rather than dragging the public workers down as well.

[awesome possum]

One can as easily argue that we need to improve the situation in the private sector rather than dragging the public workers down as well.

This is a great point. Unfortunately it addresses a legitimate problem, and on top of that suggests finding a solution to it!

A serious question for anyone in the know:

How would increasing the national minimum wage to $10 per hour affect the economy?

[Edward the Great]

This is a great point. Unfortunately it addresses a legitimate problem, and on top of that suggests finding a solution to it!

It's a terrible point. Don't like what's happening? Use the coercive power of government to take wealth from your enemies and give it to the people that you like. We aren't entitled to any particular standard of living, and this is exactly the sort of crap thinking that will make everything worse. This country has been living on borrowed time for a long time and is only now starting to reap what it has sowed. Expect the future to suck.

[Tempra]

Re: arresting fugitive democratic senators

The police raiders struck after midnight. Armed but in plain clothes, they knocked on the locked door. No response. Their leader inserted a passkey and pushed. On the inside, the fugitive braced a shoulder against the door and shoved back. But the lawmen burst in, reinjuring the suspect's broken finger. Reluctantly he allowed them to lead him into an elevator, then went limp. They lifted him up, carried him feet first through massive doors -- and onto the floor of the U.S. Senate.

The bizarre arrest of Republican Senator Bob Packwood of Oregon by the Senate's sergeant at arms and five Capitol police officers last week showed how emotional the presumably genteel senior body has grown over a furiously partisan election-year issue: a Democratic plan to reform campaign financing.

....

Instead of permitting the talking to stop at night so each side could sleep, Byrd enforced stern, old-fashioned filibuster rules reminiscent of the civil rights battles of the 1950s. He requisitioned 50 cots from the Army, set them up in the Capitol and vowed that if the Republicans yielded the floor even momentarily, the presiding Democrat would demand a vote on the bill. A cadre of Democrats, he said, would be assembled to pass it.'

Republicans, led by Assistant Minority Leader Alan Simpson of Wyoming, countered that strategy by demanding quorum calls, then vacating the chamber so the 51 required to continue business would be lacking. Byrd retaliated by ordering the sergeant at arms to corral any Republicans he could find. While Packwood took his arrest with good humor, he complained, "We work on comity around here. You can't do business on brute force." Republican Arlen Specter of Pennyslvania charged excitedly that the seizure of Senators "smacks of Nazi Germany and Communist Russia."

Ahhh, the stank of hypocrisy is so sweet....

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,966938,00.html