More union busting in Wisconsin

[Swordfish]

Well I missed it. I don't know. Threads move fast sometimes. People have condemned it now. So kudos, I guess.

Are you really wondering why more people pay attention to a national email campaign targeting a Rep who was shot, who complained about the danger of that specific ad, than to a single sign at a protest? I mean, I think its odd I even have to make that point.

It just seems like you're reaching in your quest to uncover liberal hypocrisy.

Well, no, not really.

Before the shooting I think you're point would have been completely valid.

But the big Brouhaha was that 'We must improve the civility of the dialogue or more stuff like this will happen!!'

If people were as concerned about it as they claimed to be at the time, then this is the EXACT kind of thing that would trigger a heightened reaction BECAUSE the shooting took place.

Using your logic, no one should be outraged about it until someone else gets shot, i guess?

Personally, i don't even really think this is an instance of leftist hypocrisy, because I don't think most people believed that argument even while they were making it. it was just a poliitically convenient way to bash Palin and the tea party.

And I think this pretty much bears that out, since even when this stuff gets pointed out, it gets brushed aside and downplayed by many of the same people.

it's very, very hard to maintain a tempest in a confined space like a teacup after all.....

ETA: For the record, I tried to come up with a clever play on words using 'tea party' and 'tea cup', but I failed.

It seems like there should be one in there somewhere though.....

[Prince of the North]

Well, for one, he said he'd be going after the democratic senators on ethics violations if they accepted food or shelter from anyone remotely related to a union, and then said "Koch"'s offer to fly him out to California "for a good time" after he was done crushing unions was "outstanding". I dunno. I think I've been conditioned to expect that kind of stuff from politicians at this point, and flying someone out to California does seem to be on the low end of recent ethics debacles, so ordinarily all I could muster would be something on the order of "whatever". The fact that he graciously accepts this offer after saying he's going after his opponents on ethics is stunningly hypocritical, however.

Also, the apparently only reason he opposes sending undercover instigators into the protest to turn things violent is that the ensuing violence might not have the intended effect.

But overall, I think it's less damning than some people seem to think it is. He expressed a level of opportunism and hypocriticism that, while mildly depressing, probably wouldn't surprise me coming from most politicians on either side of the aisle, and certainly doesn't surprise me coming from him. *shrug*

Yes, all that and the fact that Walker talked about luring the Democrats back under the guise of "sitting down to talk" while having absolutely no intention of negotiating. He was checking on the possibility of being able to ramrod the bill through simply because the Dems were back and they didn't even have to vote on it. Pretty slimy if you ask me.

[CryHavoc]

Yes, all that and the fact that Walker talked about luring the Democrats back under the guise of "sitting down to talk" while having absolutely no intention of negotiating. He was checking on the possibility of being able to ramrod the bill through simply because the Dems were back and they didn't even have to vote on it. Pretty slimy if you ask me.

That too. I keep reading things that make me feel like I should be outraged, but at the same time I think I'm so used to the asshattery mostly in this particular situation but also in politics in general lately, that I remain unsurprised.

[Prince of the North]

That too. I keep reading things that make me feel like I should be outraged, but at the same time I think I'm so used to the asshattery mostly in this particular situation but also in politics in general lately, that I remain unsurprised.

Yeah, I'm right there with ya! You know things are gettin' bad when the only realists among us are the extreme cynics! ;)

[alguien]

But the big Brouhaha was that 'We must improve the civility of the dialogue or more stuff like this will happen!!'

If people were as concerned about it as they claimed to be at the time, then this is the EXACT kind of thing that would trigger a heightened reaction BECAUSE the shooting took place.

I do not think things quite happened the way you say above, at least on this board. There was some initial (and fairly reasonable IMO) speculation about a connection between those ads and the tragedy, but as more was learned about the shooter, most felt that this wasn't the case.

In any event,

it's very, very hard to maintain a tempest in a confined space like a teacup after all.....

ETA: For the record, I tried to come up with a clever play on words using 'tea party' and 'tea cup', but I failed.

It seems like there should be one in there somewhere though.....

I do appreciate the attempt at word play. Perhaps, "Even with the Tea Party, it is rare that the tempests such as these stay solely in their cup." Best I could do.

[Swordfish]

I do not think things quite happened the way you say above, at least on this board. There was some initial (and fairly reasonable IMO) speculation about a connection between those ads and the tragedy, but as more was learned about the shooter, most felt that this wasn't the case.

We remember it very differently.

In any event,

I do appreciate the attempt at word play. Perhaps, "Even with the Tea Party, it is rare that the tempests such as these stay solely in their cup." Best I could do.

Ahhh... I like it!

[alguien]

A fairly good take at The Daily Show on this, in which Jon Stewart points out that Gov. Walker didn't really seem as interested in balancing the budget as attacking unions, and media pundits and protesters are ridiculed for comparing this to Egypt:

Daily Show: Crisis in Dairyland - Revenge of the Curds

And here's a good bit about unions in the US:

American Workforce Makeover

While you're off on "weekends" getting "dental work", the corporations were off banging China and India's industries.

:rofl:

[Shryke]

I do not think things quite happened the way you say above, at least on this board. There was some initial (and fairly reasonable IMO) speculation about a connection between those ads and the tragedy, but as more was learned about the shooter, most felt that this wasn't the case.

In any event,

Generally people stopped trying to connect the violent rhetoric directly to the attack, but still decried the violent rhetoric in general.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

I do not think things quite happened the way you say above, at least on this board. There was some initial (and fairly reasonable IMO) speculation about a connection between those ads and the tragedy, but as more was learned about the shooter, most felt that this wasn't the case.

Here it is.

There's these comments, all from different people on a single page of the thread, the day it happened. You know, before anything was really known:

What the fuck do we expect, with major party senate candidates calling for "2nd amendment remedies"? Sadly I think this is the tip of the iceberg. Palin, Angle, and others have knowingly and smugly sanctioned the nutcases of their party to do exactly this.

Ppl have been saying for months that the pattern of inciteful rhetoric was going to end in a tragedy and here it is. A woman in her prime gunned down like an animal. Just sickening.

she used an ad with crosshairs over all their districts and now one of them is dead. it aint that much of a reach.

Of course he was mentally unstable and of course the rhetoric was part of this. I don't see why people think it is either/or. Not a whole lot of tea party members would've been capable of actually doing the deed, but the whole gung-ho, weapons obsessed rhetoric and behaviour legitimizes this to those few who are capable, making them feel that they're doing this for a cause and for a group of people who will understand.

And if you think that a political map that targets her in fucking crosshairs, combined with violent rhetoric regarding "2nd Amendment remedies" has nothing to do with this then you have truly drunk the Kool-Aid.

and you are somehow shocked that this could have happened in arizona considering the political climate and the veritable hardon its citizens have for their guns and their disdain for the left?

[alguien]

Here it is.

There's these comments, all from different people on a single page of the thread, the day it happened. You know, before anything was really known.

You're sort of proving my point. Like I said, since Giffords had specifically mentioned those types of ads and were a bad idea and could cause violence in her district, the initial speculation was justified. In retrospect, there is unwarranted hyperbole in the posts you listed, but it was an incredibly shocking situation. By reasonable (in my post you quoted) I meant its not shocking to connect the dots between Gifford's quoted statements which at the time almost seemed to eerily predict what happened to her.

Once more was known about the shooter, in subsequent threads, I recall many more people saying something to the effect of what Shryke posted above. /threadjack

[mcbigski]

Out of curiosity, why are cops and firefighters exempt from this push? What rationale makes them so different? Are not cops and firefighters a rather large number of state employees too?

It's most likely a strategic plan on Governor Walker's part. Once the bloodsucking from the nonessential unions is curbed, he'll be in a much stronger negotiating position with the Police and Firemen's union.

At the same time, however, Koch Industries is both a major bankroller of the Tea Party and of Scott Walker. They have promoted anti-union agendas all over the place and are now throwing a bunch of money towards anti-union ads and the like in Wisconsin over this thing. The Koch Brothers have spent hundreds of millions across the US to push for less regulation, more privatization and less worker rights. It's kinda there thing.

But there seems little evidence they are masterminding the whole thing. They are just throwing their support, as they always do, behind people like Scott Walker who are trying to advance their agenda.

The Koch's gave about $43,000 to Walker's election campaign, out of roughly $37 million spent by both sides in the 2010 gubernatorial election in Wisconsin. How much more did unions give net to the Democrats in that same election?

[Inigima]

good to know you can compare campaign contributions to total spending thanks

[Shryke]

Ahh yes, because campaign contributions are the only way money can be applied to help a candidate get elected.

[awesome possum]

The Koch's gave about $43,000 to Walker's election campaign, out of roughly $37 million spent by both sides in the 2010 gubernatorial election in Wisconsin. How much more did unions give net to the Democrats in that same election?

And they gave $3 million to the Wisconsin GOP, which then funneled about $1 million of that into ads attacking Walker's opponent.

But you're right. An entire group of unions is basically equal to Mortimer and Randolph.

[mcbigski]

If that's the best you guys have for a response, then yes, it's abundantly clear that despite how much the left is projecting to demonize the Koches, union money is far more pervasive in politics these days. The recent fracas actually makes me think of FDR a bit more positively, because he was right about public unions. FDR would be at the leftest a Blue Dog dem these days. I think fully Democrat partisan Joe Klein nailed it here: "Public employees unions are an interesting hybrid. Industrial unions are organized against the might and greed of ownership. Public employees unions are organized against the might and greed…of the public?"

[Shryke]

The recent fracas actually makes me think of FDR a bit more positively, because he was right about public unions. FDR would be at the leftest a Blue Dog dem these days. I think fully Democrat partisan Joe Klein nailed it here: "Public employees unions are an interesting hybrid. Industrial unions are organized against the might and greed of ownership. Public employees unions are organized against the might and greed…of the public?"

Yes? The public wants lots of services and low taxes, so they, through their government, take it out on the public sector workers. "Work for less"

And those workers then organize to maintain standards in their jobs.

What's the issue here?

[mcbigski]

Yes? The public wants lots of services and low taxes, so they, through their government, take it out on the public sector workers. "Work for less"

And those workers then organize to maintain standards in their jobs.

What's the issue here?

Public sector workers can only, by definition, strike against the public interest. It's bad public policy to give them more options to screw the general populace. If as individuals they feel they are being treated unfairly, they ought to be free to find a real job.

[TrackerNeil]

Public sector workers can only, by definition, strike against the public interest. It's bad public policy to give them more options to screw the general populace. If as individuals they feel they are being treated unfairly, they ought to be free to find a real job.

So police officers should find "a real job"? And firefighters? Public health inspectors? Judges? You're right...who needs any of those people.

[Tempra]

Public sector workers can only, by definition, strike against the public interest. It's bad public policy to give them more options to screw the general populace. If as individuals they feel they are being treated unfairly, they ought to be free to find a real job.

A real job?

[mcbigski]

So police officers should find "a real job"? And firefighters? Public health inspectors? Judges? You're right...who needs any of those people.

Those are all roles that need to be filled, but that doesn't make the fillers indispensable. A bit tangent to the topic, but I suspect we'd be measurable better off if police, fire fighters, judges etc were term limited rather than life time occupations. Ancient Athens was far from perfect, but there's certainly an upside (or at least the elimination of a downside) to having powerful positions filled by lot for relatively short terms.