Father vows to kill son's murderer if released

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

As a society, obviously vigilantism is something to be discouraged, because by its very nature its going outside the laws of the land. But laws are not the be all and end all of human existence. I believe that this man's actions were beyond the pale and I think it could be argued that the father would not necessarily be morally incorrect to destroy this person. Of course, he would be guilty of murder by the laws of our society and he would have to pay the consequences for that. But, would it be justice on some more basic human level? Yea, I think so. He violated some innate tribal shit with that one. He should've been strung up in the first place.

If I were on the jury I would vote for acquittal, even if the dad did it on live tv.

[Kalbear]

But how do you codify that? Vigilante justice is bad except * for these exceptions.

You don't. You can't. You can do things like have clauses for temporary insanity and the like but that wouldn't fly here; it's clearly premeditated now. Hopefully there are other legal outs that would allow for a reasonable defense in front of a jury that would free him.

Vigilante justice is one of those things that sometimes you're going to have. It happens when the law isn't just according to norms. That doesn't mean you should not try the guy or whatever. It just means that you can expect it.

You're a cop, right? I hope you never have to be in a situation where you're upholding the law amongst a bunch of people who feel they are justified in taking the law into their own hands.

Uh, no. I'm not a cop. I hope I don't have to be in that situation either.

I didn't say that vigilantism is legal or that it should be legal. I said that it's justified in some situations. Again, the law doesn't mean just. Many, many wonderful things have been done that were illegal in the name of justice. Point of fact a lot of great, progressive change has been done with illegal activities. They don't even have to be violent activities!

Don't mistake my stance as saying that vigilantes should be legalized. They shouldn't. But that doesn't mean that they shouldn't do what they do sometimes, any more than it meant Rosa Parks should have followed the bus driver's instructions or Gandhi should have bowed down to the British.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

I have to say I'm with Tormund. I'd be very unlikely to vote for conviction it I were on that Father's Jury. Additionlly, if he were charged with anything more than Voluntary Manslaughter I'd be shocked. There would clearly be passion involved here.

[S John]

But how do you codify that? Vigilante justice is bad except * for these exceptions.

You mean me, personally? Well, I look at it like this. People are social animals, whether we like it or not. My most basic social unit consists of my close friends and family. If someone did grievous unprovoked harm to anyone in that group, I would want to harm them in return. Doesn't mean I will, but I'd certainly be thinking about it. So I just apply that to society at large. I can clearly empathize with the father in this case. And yea if he kills him thats illegal and he'll have to go to jail for it, I'm not sure if it would be wrong for him to do so though. I guess I just don't look at right and wrong through the lens of the justice system, though most of the time my thoughts do align with the law.

So while I agree with most laws, and even try to abide by ones I don't agree with in order to keep out of trouble... I don't think a person has to put all of their faith in the justice system to be a just person or do a just act. I think its OK to handle things on your own sometimes without bringing in cops and lawyers and judges. And everyone does this too, at some point (though usually more like a fender bender, or getting paid under the table for something). Murder is clearly on the extreme end.

[Spoony]

Is it too much to think that this man might actually be rehabilitated?

This guy might not be interested in raping and murdering people anymore.

He might even become a productive member of society.

[Mya Stone]

You're a cop, right? I hope you never have to be in a situation where you're upholding the law amongst a bunch of people who feel they are justified in taking the law into their own hands.

Again, I might murder someone who murdered and ate my kid, but then I'd expect to be prosecuted for it.

:rofl:

Sorry, that may be misplaced, but that's the funniest misconception about Kal I've ever read.

As to the man, I'd kill him too if he ever did anything like that to my child. Without hesitation.

[Spoony]

As to the man, I'd kill him too if he ever did anything like that to my child. Without hesitation.

I hope in the spirit of just retribution you would rape, murder, then eat him.

[Mya Stone]

I hope in the spirit of just retribution you would rape, murder, then eat him.

Do you have children, Spoony? If not, you can not understand the amount of love a parent feels for a child. You may think you do, but until you are one, you have no idea.

[Insert Edit]

My apologies Razor, I'm confusing you with someone else...

[Insert Edit]

As to the man, I'd kill him too if he ever did anything like that to my child. Without hesitation.

I only have one child, so the decision would be easier for me. If I had two children, then I'd hesitate a whole lot.

[Spoony]

Oh I understand devotion.

To be honest I am more of a baby daddy than a father though.

[kairparavel]

When I saw this thread title, I was reminded of this from when I was a kid.

My dad and I were watching the news when they showed it. My dad said he'd do the exact same thing.

Also:

Revenge rather than self-defense was involved when Leon Gary Plauche, 39, stepped from a telephone booth in the Baton Rouge, La., airport a year ago and killed Jeffery Doucet, 25, with a .38-cal. pistol. Doucet, who had taken up with Plauche's estranged wife, allegedly kidnaped and sexually molested Plauche's son Jody, then eleven. "A lot of people have stated that they would have done exactly the same thing as Plauche, if it had been their son," conceded Prem Burns, chief prosecutor in the Louisiana case. Burns said Plauche has agreed to plead guilty to a charge of manslaughter

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,965498-5,00.html#ixzz1G3rfjzmq

[Kalbear]

Is it too much to think that this man might actually be rehabilitated?

Ultimately it doesn't matter. The punishment is often as much to do with the rehabilitation of the criminal as it is the punishment of the crime to stave off retributive measures by non-legal means. In this case, there is a very large perception of unfairness from the parents, the community, and most everyone here. Regardless of his rehabilitation the unfairness would remain.

I only have one child, so the decision would be easier for me. If I had two children, then I'd hesitate a whole lot.

I don't understand this at all. Because you'd have a spare you'd be a bit more okay with the loss of a child? I don't grok that at all.

[Mya Stone]

I only have one child, so the decision would be easier for me. If I had two children, then I'd hesitate a whole lot.

True. As I'm pregnant with my second child, it may be a lot of hormones talking.

This much I know: if I didn't kill my child's killer, I am 150% sure Dub would.

Spoony, it's not just devotion. Your entire being is singularly tied to that little life. If it were taken away from me, I would be...no words can explain what I would be. That is something that I would never, ever, get over, and I don't believe any amount of "rehabilitation" would be enough. Just one death would not be enough.

But that's just me.

ETA: Kal, I think it's more you have another life to worry about. That's how I read it. I would be more hesitant to throw my life away knowing my other child would still need me.

[Kalbear]

ETA: Kal, I think it's more you have another life to worry about. That's how I read it. I would be more hesitant to throw my life away knowing my other child would still need me.

There are plenty of ways to deal with that. For instance in the above example a person who avenged his son's rape (not even murder) got out of it with 5 years probation.

No prosecutor would want to bring a trial like that to a jury. Good luck finding an unbiased one, much less one that would do anything other than acquit or be hung.

[Insert Edit]

I don't understand this at all. Because you'd have a spare you'd be a bit more okay with the loss of a child? I don't grok that at all.

Because I'm still a father with all the responsibilities entailed. I can't fill that role from a jail cell.

[Insert Edit]

There are plenty of ways to deal with that. For instance in the above example a person who avenged his son's rape (not even murder) got out of it with 5 years probation.

No prosecutor would want to bring a trial like that to a jury. Good luck finding an unbiased one, much less one that would do anything other than acquit or be hung.

And would I chance that? I've got a kid whose sibling was murdered. At the very least I'd pause to think about implications.

[Res ipsa loquitur]

Are you comparing gay people and abortion doctors to somebody who sexually assaults, murders, and eats a child? Are you serious?

Hi Alexia...what I am comparing is the belief that people seem to have that it is OK to kill someone for doing something or being something that is disliked. So, the man who feels truly that abortion is unjust and so kills to save the lives of countless children...is no different this man who wants to kill the man who killed his child. And it is no different than the racists and homophobes who would wish to kill gays and the group they dislike because of a belief that both those groups poison and harm society, and the nations laws about equality are doing great harm to the USA...so theyd claim.

[Kalbear]

Hi Alexia...what I am comparing is the belief that people seem to have that it is OK to kill someone for doing something or being something that is disliked.

And you're saying that under no circumstances is it ever acceptable to kill another human being.

o, the man who feels truly that abortion is unjust and so kills to save the lives of countless children...is no different this man who wants to kill the man who killed his child.

No, see, there's a false dichotomy. You assume that if you're okay killing you're okay with killing no matter what the circumstance. What you are refusing to understand is that there are, for some people, very legitimate reasons to kill another human being.

You can choose to make it about absolutes, you Sith, but it's not about that.

[AquariumDrinker]

Is it too much to think that this man might actually be rehabilitated?

If he did it to your child, it might be too much to think. Right or wrong, it would be near impossible to forgive it. The main point of this post was what the father feels, not society... at least from how I read it.

As a non-relative of the victim, I would not seek to kill him under any circumstances and his release from prison would not cost me a nights sleep. If I knew what he did and met him on the street, I would not let him alone with my child no matter who said he was rehabilitated and I would be hard pressed not to watch him as close as possible if my life brought me near him on a regular basis.

I do not believe some one capable of performing his crime (and only got caught because he attempted it again 8 years later) is ever going to be rehabilitated.