MMA 12- Toad Style is immensely strong and immune to nearly any weapon...

[Horus Ex Machina]

Incredible showing by Jones. How the hell does that giant of a man make 205?

Barboza kick was pretty awesome. Wasn't quite the Pettis kick, but pretty damned flashy.

In the line of mma superhero stories: Anthony Hardonk jacked some guy who tried to mug him. Gorjan Relic, while being off from fighting because of back surgery, jumped into the ocean and saved two guys from drowning in a sinking car, or something like that. Can't hurt the sport. Keep it up boys!

He has very skinny legs.

Yes, yes he does. Still can't believe it when I see him standing next to another lhw.

one thing, Shogun looked very sluggish and out of shape from the start

, guy is awesome, Dana White has a gold mine.

I don't usually post here because i know very little about MMA and no one wants to be the fool, but fuck it. I'm not impressed. Jones freakish body just games the system, i mean yeah he's 205 but he clearly doesn't belong in the weight class. Far too tall and strong, no one he's ever fought has stood a chance. I mean i can see he is fast but there is a reason why at the top level no one does those shenanigans, eventually they open you up and you get tagged. I mean how good is his technique really once you get past the athleticism ? I'm just really looking forward to seeing what happens when he moves up, so we can judge him against his peers.

And another thing just what does being from the "new school" of MMA mean ? Better rounded ? Better trained ? The go to moves sure do look the same though.

Less than Luke brings up an amazing point. I have a body-type similar to Jones. I built myself up to about 220 lbs but it was mostly upper body muscle. It's incredibly hard for guys with our build to have proportion in the lower body. It's hard for us to do squats to full range. But don't let that fool you, the legs are plenty strong. When I was up to 220 I looked a bit heavier but my legs were still chicken skinny. Jones has that advantage everytime he cuts weight. I'm currently trying to cut to 185 for a proposed fight and the only reason this is possible is bc my legs aren't huge masses of quad and hamstring muscle.

Awesome win for Jones. We may have finally found the man who can hold onto that belt for awhile. He has a very, very dynamic game. He' has the size of Forrest Griffin and 10 times the skill.

[Stego]

Jones should definitely be the favorite. Rua's only accomplishment in years is splitting fights with Machida, and I think that was merely a case of being a bad matchup for him. (Sorta like Edgar was for Penn -- it doesn't diminish Penn.) Rua found a perfect storm, but his hold on that belt was always temporary.

The man is 3-2 in the UFC. This is not Pride of 5 years ago.

Jones is undefeated. (The one loss on his record was not a defeat -- he knocked out Hammill with an illegal elbow and was DQ'd.) He has destroyed anything and everything put in front of him. The UFC has been incredibly careful not to set up one of their big names in front of him for fear he will humiliate them.

He will not only beat Shogun, he will do it with striking. And he will do it in humiliating fashion. Rua is a great matchup for a counter-striker like Machida, but by the same token he is a bad matchup for an aggressive, inventive striker like Jones. By giving Jones a title shot, they all but gave him the title.

This is the post that needed to be quoted.

Horus, Jones's legs are weak as a newborn kittens. It does not matter in a sport like fighting. If you can't squat, your legs are weak. That's just a fact.

[Space Bandito]

From what I understand the size of one's legs does not matter. It would be his hips, and awareness that would be important. Studying Karate after years of lifting weights (and genetics) my big legs are not helping me at all.

I must say I loved Jones' elbows. They seemed very well targeted.

[Stego]

Also, I am no longer a fan of Rashad Evans. Fuck him for taking a fight against his workout partner.

[Commodore]

Also, I am no longer a fan of Rashad Evans. Fuck him for taking a fight against his workout partner.

Dana White was asked about this, he said at the end of the day, your friends and workout partners don't put food on your table and provide for your family. I agree with this.

The window of opportunity for financial success in MMA is small. You can't blame Rashad for taking a fight.

[lessthanluke]

Horus, Jones's legs are weak as a newborn kittens. It does not matter in a sport like fighting. If you can't squat, your legs are weak. That's just a fact.

This.

I highly doubt Jones squats much at all. Just making his legs bigger and stronger would increase his BW by A LOT seeing as your legs make up a fair percentage of your body mass.

[Horus Ex Machina]

This is the post that needed to be quoted.

Horus, Jones's legs are weak as a newborn kittens. It does not matter in a sport like fighting. If you can't squat, your legs are weak. That's just a fact.

What I meant by my statement is that they're strong enough for him to do what he needs to do. He won't win a powerlifting competition, but they're long enough to give him leverage to hold guard (if anyone can ever get him in that position) and deliver damaging kicks since that's partly about hips and tech. However you might be surprised by how much weight skinny legs can push. It's the range of motion that's being sacrificed. I have trouble going all the way down with my squats. I'm getting better about that, but size always comes to my upper body a hell of alot easier than with my legs.

Props on the call though. I picked Jones too, but I though that Shogun would put up more of a fight on the ground and possibly get close to a sub.

Also, I am no longer a fan of Rashad Evans. Fuck him for taking a fight against his workout partner.

Dana White was asked about this, he said at the end of the day, your friends and workout partners don't put food on your table and provide for your family. I agree with this.

The window of opportunity for financial success in MMA is small. You can't blame Rashad for taking a fight.

I have to agree with Stego to some degree, I don't hate Evans though, Jones agreed to the fight too. But if you've never been part of a training camp, you have to know that everyone in a gym is your coaching staff and teammate. What they do for you on the mats, spotting you when you lift, sparring with you, you really are part of a team. The economics of MMA is part of what led to this team dynamic, it's cheaper to be part of a big camp than hire full time sparring partners. Now Alistair Overeem and Sergei Kharitonov are both members of Golden Glory but they don't spar with one another and rarely ever see each other. Golden Glory is less of a camp than a organization with really good kickboxing coaches. Jackson's is a very close-knit group, otoh.

When two guys in the same gym fight, it ruins the dynamic of the gym. Do other guys in the gym have to choose sides or do they spar with each guy equally? Who does Greg Jackson corner? Chances are that another Jackson guy will be in the other corner. Also gameplanning is done primarily by Greg Jackson, so now he's int he position of having to gameplan two guys to beat each other. That's an awkward stance for a coach. Personally if Evans is going to be the challenger, it would be a good idea for him to set up his training camp elsewhere, maybe AKA or ATT, if just for this fight. Hell he could borrow his teammate GSP's guys at Tristar and go train there.

[GSP]

I had heard Evans has left Jackson's for the upcoming fight and that Jackson plans to sit this one out. I don't fault either guy for taking the fight, but I thought it was kind of shitty for the UFC to fuck with Jones' moment by hauling in Evans and making it awkward. I mean, really, you couldn't start with the WWE type hype the next day? Couldn't even let Jones just enjoy the moment? That was a failed marketing attempt that just came off as campy imho. Oh, and I expect Jones to beat Rashad like a red headed step child.

One should not quote one's own posts for truth, even when their prediction has played out imho. Seems just a bit self congradulatory, don't you think?

[Sheep the Evicted]

One should not quote one's own posts for truth, even when their prediction has played out imho. Seems just a bit self congradulatory, don't you think?

Yeah but all props to Stego, he hit it right on the button. Couldn't have been more accurate if he went back with a time machine; i reckon that deserves a little self congratulations.

So one more time; whats the difference between new school and old school mma ?

[Horus Ex Machina]

One should not quote one's own posts for truth, even when their prediction has played out imho. Seems just a bit self congradulatory, don't you think?

I've done the same several times in the past. Did you not see how MMA 11 began? New rule, if you make a big pick right before we change threads, you get to start off the next thread thumping your chest. Besides, even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in awhile and he's been wrong so many times that it's par for the course to give him a bit of credit now. Sorry Stego, I have to get my licks in, it's what I do.

****

So one more time; whats the difference between new school and old school mma ?

When alot of MMA journalists talk about "New School MMA" and fans talk about it, it can mean different things. In general, it starts with the notion that alot of fans have that there will come a generation off MMA fighters that have grown up without a particular base but having trained every aspect of MMA for theirwhole lives. It's a bit unrealistic in the near tern, you'll probably always have fighters who grew up doing one thing more than the other unless we start having HS MMA or such. Sure they'll probably join an MMA gym at a younger age, but at a competitive level, there won't be as many option until they're of legal age to compete in MMA. It also takes in the additional factor of MMA attracting athletes who could have played other sports professionally. The athletic specimen.

In recent and more specific terms, the "New school" of MMA has often highlighted two fighters, GSP and Jon Jones. However it pretty much generally accepted that it's roots started 3 or maybe even 4 years ago. The idea that a fighter can't win with a win with a single skillset; every fighter practices BJJ; every fighter practices boxing; every fighter needs some wrestling. It seems like the "New school" always seems to be reinvented when a more rounded fighter comes along. A few years back, 'Hughes vs Gracie' where Hughes (aka Public Enemy #1) was relatively well rounded. He was pretty one-dimensional, but he was more well-rounded than your Donald Fryes or Dan Severns.

Right now GSP and Jon Jones are seen by most media as the most apparent prototype, the visual of what it might look like to have a fighter who grew up practicing all skillsets (despite the fact that neither fighter actually did) and how seamlessly then can move from one skillset to another and use them effectively. In summary, the "New School" is a term that will probably be with us for as long as ppl still see this as a young sport. MMA fans and journalists are still waiting to see what this sport will look like as the athletes get better and have trained longer, starting earlier. It's always going to be something different, and it's definition will always change. There's no specific dividing line bc it's so subjective. As I said before it's meaning has already changed. Hughes used to be the example held up as the definition. Now the game has evolved past him. I don't think you'll see too much advancement beyond what GSP and Jones do, however.

So what do Jones and GSP do specifically that makes them separate from past generations? First off they're both exceptional wrestlers. Now what sets them apart from other MMA wrestlers is that they can disguise their shots and takedown attempts better bc of their effectiveness on their feet and their ability to move from a true standing stance to a low takedown stance. Changing levels. Not many wrestlers can do this well. They're so robotic in their standup that they almost do a bit of a break before they go for their takedown and inadvertantly telegraph it. This doesn't happen when they're doing pure wrestling bc the stance is different, lower. Some wrestlers have thus adopted the "Cuban" boxing/wrestling hybrid stance bc of this. Unfortunately this sacrfices boxing defense and requires the figher to have exceptional head movement. Mo Lawal, or Rashad Evans might be good examples of this. Jones and GSP can effectively change levels seamlessly from a true boxing stance which makes both aspects of that game more effective. Submission-wise, both fighters are effective at defending subs. Not a big deal, many wrestlers these days are. However despite working top control in most of their fights, they have shown the creativity and dynamic understanding of the game to often work threatening submissions into their ground game not being as content to simply gnp forever. Attempting subs usually opens a fighter up for reversals, which highlights again their amazing top control. The only thing that you can question about their games is thier abilities off of their backs. This is simply bc they're rarely put in that position.

Of the two GSP has shown a few weaknesses. Two that I'll note, in his loss to Hughes he struggled off of his back, gave up position and got armbarred. Hughes was not controlling that fight, that was GSP's fight to win, yet Hughes was able to take the sub after a relatively short time in control as I remember it. A better fighter off of his back might have been able to roll the sub or fight to guard and GSP just couldn't do it. Hughes has great back control and chokes, but he's not known for general range of subs so it's not something that GSP should have given up so easily. We can't see whether or not this has improved since he's never been in that position since. Second, he doesn't exercise much head movement at all. His defensive boxing is earmarked by his karate background, his best defense of standing punches seems to still be either moving out of the way and side-stepping punches or straight parrying. But if a shot gets through, it's hitting that melon. Don't get me wrong, his standup beats most MMA fighters, but if there is a weakness to his standup, it is his defensive boxing. Now you have to manage to survive the efficiency of his offense to take advantage of this. He puts his punches together so well and caps it off with clinching and takedowns, that opponents can rarely gain off of this.

Hope that was helpful. Just off the top of my head.

[Analu]

So one more time; whats the difference between new school and old school mma ?

I guess it depends on how far back you mean by "old school MMA". In the 90s, it used to be that you just had guys specializing in their one discipline, and it was about which discipline was the best. So the new school guys were the ones that incorporated more than one. Then 5-10 years ago, it was the new school guys were the ones that could do everything well, but still had their core strengths.

These days, I think when people are talking about old school vs new school, the former is talking about the fighters who were in their prime 5 years ago, when you (or most people) started really getting into MMA: Chuck Liddell, Wanderlei, Nog, Fedor. I kinda think of guys like GSP and BJ as being in the middle, since they're still relatively young and at or near the top of their respective games, but have been around for a long, long time.

I think that right now, new school is the thinking of what would MMA be like if truly great athletes focused on MMA. Guys who could've made it in other sports like football or basketball, but chose MMA. Guys like Jon Jones, who obviously has freakish talent and the genes to go with it (IIRC, his brothers play in the NFL). There's money to be made in the sport now, which should attract more physical talent. Then we'll start seeing all kinds of crazy shit, like the Pettis kick, Jones spinning elbows, etc, but on a regular basis.

That's my take on it, anyways. Hard to see Shogun dominated that thoroughly. I'd like to say ring rust, but I think Jones just makes very good fighters look terrible: Shogun, Bader, etc.

Also, wtf is up with this thread title? I missed it the first time thru, becauase I thought it was a thread about a show or band called "Toad Style". I dunno

[Stego]

Besides, even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in awhile and he's been wrong so many times that it's par for the course to give him a bit of credit now.

I was wrong twice max, ya jerk. We'll see. :D Don't ever take me seriously with regards to Frank Mir. He's my favorite fighter and I make no sense with regards to him. Otherwise, I'm pretty much money.

As to Evans, he could have done a number of things. He isn't in a situation where his family is going hungry. As for Jones, he HAS to take the fight or he loses his belt. This isn't boxing.

[Stego]

Also, wtf is up with this thread title? I missed it the first time thru, becauase I thought it was a thread about a show or band called "Toad Style". I dunno

A game of chess is like a sword fight,

You must think first, before you move.

[Horus Ex Machina]

Also, wtf is up with this thread title? I missed it the first time thru, becauase I thought it was a thread about a show or band called "Toad Style". I dunno

Have you never seen

Or better yet, have you never listened to

Now that's some walkout music. I decided to get creative with it. Just something that I felt would catch the eye and attract questions. I :bowdown: that album and that movie.

A game of chess is like a sword fight,

You must think first, before you move.

OMG Stego's on a roll. :thumbsup:

On the other thing, hey this is the MMA thread, you gotta take 'em when you get 'em. ;) And I knew you couldn't be serious about Frank Mir. At least, I hoped you weren't. C'mon! You also have a Forrest Griffin/Brock Lesnar man-crush.

***

GSP's apparently confirming that Evans will be taking his training camp elsewhere for this one, and it's only right that he should have to do so. Jones should train at Jackson's imo. It's his right, I believe. And Jackson will sit the actual fight out. Is he going to train Jones though? Will he gameplan for him? I kinda doubt it. But he gets the other trainers and sparring partners. If DW wonders why this doesn't happen more often he needs to go visit the respective training camps for this fight and see how much this screw with their preparation.

[Analu]

Have you never seen

Or better yet, have you never listened to

Now that's some walkout music. I decided to get creative with it. Just something that I felt would catch the eye and attract questions. I :bowdown: that album and that movie.

Nah, I never really got into martial arts movies. Once I learned that they were useless (for the most part) in real fights, I pretty much lost interest. I was more a boxing brat.

Never really got into Wutang Clan either. I know they're good and all that, but hey, I'm an island boy. I was more into reggae and jawaiian music. Sorry.

[GSP]

As a metalhead, these references are lost on me too, but, I get to learn something I know nothing about when the thread titles get discussed, so I don't mind.

Since we're agreed that self congradulatory chest bumping is allowed, nay encouraged, can I point out that I tagged the Barboza fight for FOTN and that it indeed, received said award? Am I Nostradamus? Surely the case can be made, but I'll humbly leave that for others to confirm.

[Stego]

As a metalhead

Spread your wings and fly, man. Don't limit yourself with one type of anything. X-Ray would describe herself as a metalhead too, but I know for a fact she can spit some Wu Tang.

[Horus Ex Machina]

Spread your wings and fly, man. Don't limit yourself with one type of anything. X-Ray would describe herself as a metalhead too, but I know for a fact she can spit some Wu Tang.

I've gotta second this. Despite the fact that I'm extremely strong on the Hiphop thread, you can check my mp3's and fing lots of reggae/dancehall with artists like Barrington Levy, Vybz Kartel, TOK and Jr. Gong; you'll also find Godsmack, Disturbed, Rage against the Machine, Carlos Santana, Static X, as well as some Jimi Hendrix, Lenny Kravitz and Prince.

The only music I don't really listen to is country and I make an exception to that rule for the Man in Black.

[GSP]

Blah, blah, blah, you like metal you're so closed minded. I've heard it about a billion times before, almost always from someone who doesn't appreciate my shit. I like what I like. I've tried the rest, and it's all just too fuckin happy. I don't care what it says about my character, happy music annoys the piss out of me ( I don't even like 'upbeat' metal tunes). If it doesn't make me feel like committing multiple homicide, I'm simply not interested. And those motherfuckers better know how to wail or I aint buying an alblum or paying for a show. Different strokes for different folks, folks. I do appreciate some stuff from outside the genre, but it's all dark as hell.

Add some Lamb of God or Slayer or something to your mix, and maybe I'll give you the taste cred to question my alleged boundaries.

[Stego]

Add some Lamb of God or Slayer or something to your mix, and maybe I'll give you the taste cred to question my alleged boundaries.

I'm a sometimes powerlifter, man. I have plenty of Slayer in my ipod.