Catelyn

[Errant Bard]

This is why she should be mad at ned, not blaming jon.

She is not blaming Jon, she is disliking Jon and being cold to him.

As for being mad at Ned, perhaps you missed the "It was the one thing she could never forgive him." in the quote I posted a bit before.

You can't compare it. Cersei is a woman, and that is westeros. Women don't cheat, they just take the shit (and the horn, and the bastards)

You missed my point, I was comparing Ned's (and Westeros') double standard to the one nevermore arbours in gauging Jon and Catelyn's "maturity" side by side even though their situations have completely different weights.

As for the "this is Westeros, so it's normal and good" implication, let me remind you that you lot are arguing that Catelyn wanting a bastard be put in his rightful place (away from her sight at least) according to Westeros mores is downright evil. It's pretty convenient to be able to cherry pick like that so for the same action, some character can be given a pass and others reviled.

[nevermore]

She is not blaming Jon, she is disliking Jon and being cold to him.

As for being mad at Ned, perhaps you missed the "It was the one thing she could never forgive him." in the quote I posted a bit before.

You missed my point, I was comparing Ned's (and Westeros') double standard to the one nevermore arbours in gauging Jon and Catelyn's "maturity" side by side even though their situations have completely different weights.

As for the "this is Westeros, so it's normal and good" implication, let me remind you that you lot are arguing that Catelyn wanting a bastard be put in his rightful place (away from her sight at least) according to Westeros mores is downright evil. It's pretty convenient to be able to cherry pick like that so for the same action, some character can be given a pass and others reviled.

not really, Jon has the harder position, he could've hated Cat for being the only one of the Starks to treat him coldly (which i believe is a way to passively show hatred) and even though it isn't mentioned i bet she gave him some hard stares at one point or another. Anyway she does hate him, or at least disagrees with her family on everything regarding Jon. he's the bastard and the outcast, i doubt her position was worse than his at least at the point they were at Winterfell. Also i dont feel sympathy for her for the same way people don't feel sympathy for Cersei, though i feel sorry for her children, i believe Catelyn had as much hand in the red wedding as everyone else.

PS: however unwittingly

[Lady Blackfish]

Before this thread gets any more repetitive, I want to say one thing: the discussion that started from the OP was not about how Catelyn treated Jon well. Nobody is making the argument that Cat was nice to Jon or that Jon wasn't aware that he was different from his siblings and that she wanted him elsewhere. There was a quote from Martin himself saying as much. Nobody imagines Catelyn ever actively did much for Jon.

What was being debated was if Catelyn's behavior toward Jon constitutes mistreatment (or "shitty treatment" if you'd prefer). We already covered the ground that Catelyn usually did not verbally abuse Jon, apart from the incident at Bran's bedside, didn't physically abuse him, did not go out of her way to prevent his basic needs from being met, although she would not take on the responsibility herself of seeing that they were. She begged Ned to send Jon away on many occasions and refused to house him without Ned present to be his parent.

Now we can talk about if that's mistreatment or not, but if we don't set a parameter on this thread it's just going to turn into the mess these threads always turn into.

[Lady Blackfish]

Yes, she was crappy to Jon, and no, I don't think it's all sunshine and roses that she decided to exclude him the way she did. Someone earlier on said "it was her right" - sure, and it's a stepmom's right to treat children from a previous marriage like crap. And it's my right to think that was really crappy of her.

What I said was (I believe you are referring to me) that it is Catelyn's right to refuse to raise her husband's bastard son, the one he conceived on another woman while married to her. I never said she has a right to treat him like crap (although if you think that this is treating him like crap, I suppose that's what my previous post is about).

And for the millionth time, Catelyn is NOT Jon's stepmother.

[Nine of Spades]

What I said was (I believe you are referring to me) that it is Catelyn's right to refuse to raise her husband's bastard son, the one he conceived on another woman while married to her. I never said she has a right to treat him like crap (although if you think that this is treating him like crap, I suppose that's what my previous post is about).

And for the millionth time, Catelyn is NOT Jon's stepmother.

Um, yes she is, at least, she is as far as she knows.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/stepmother

": the wife of one's father when distinct from one's natural or legal mother "

But she does treat Jon right: she is cold and distant to him, without being hostile. Nothing else is required. She isn’t supposed to “mother” Jon any more than she is supposed to mother Theon, or Beth Cassel. Nobody expects her to do that. Certainly not Jon.

This is not an acceptable way to treat children who are being raised in your household. Gracious if not loving is the minimum I would expect. You should at least make them feel like its ok for them to live there.

For that matter, I don’t even think she’s supposed to “mother” her own children. That’s not how noble families work. Even the aristocracy in our world wouldn’t have “mothered” their own children just a generation ago or two. There is a large group of wetnurses, septas, cooks, and various other servants such as Old Nan to provide all the services a 1950s mother in North-Western Europe or the US provides the first few years. Then, at age 7 or so, the young child (if a boy) goes to boarding school / is farmed out as a page to another knight. Childhood over.

Im not sure what your point is here. I think your assuming I'm a moral relativist, which I am not. I'm not strictly a moral absolutist either. I think the best way to put it is that I think I cut slack to people who I think are working toward the right direction within their environment. For example George Washington owned slaves. Slavery is in my opinion, and I think most peoples opinion on this board, wrong. But I admire Washington, because while he was to a certain extent a prisoner to the institutions of his times, he took steps to try and ameliorate them when he could. He wasn't perfect, and arguably could and should have done more, but I respect the recognition of the greater moral issue.

So yes, Catelyn may have acted in a way that was appropriate for the time, but she felt no real disquiet about it, it didn't seem to bother her conscience much at all. And that is what I don't respect.

I'm still not understanding how Catelyn's displays of decisiveness mean ipso facto that she cannot be trusted with this nature of information, I think there are more specific pressures to consider and your examples don't seem to me to correlate strongly enough to be applicable. However, I think her role as mother to her children gives her a vested interest that could collide with Ned's goal of protecting Jon in the right situation. As well, Ned may feel that nobody should know of the secret unless absolutely necessary, and that's fair enough IMO. Personally I think Ned should have told Catelyn by the time it was decided that Jon would go to the Wall, but that's mostly by the by here.

Your on the right track with her role as a mother is the potential flashpoint, and her decisiveness is what makes it impossible for Ned to tell her. Basically if she feels, as a mother, that she has to do something for the benefit of her children, Jon's welfare will basically carry no weight with her in that decision making.

Ned on the other hand is to a certain extent balancing Jon's welfare vs. the other 5 Stark children. It would be one thing if she didnt think much of Jon's welfare if she were an indecisive person, as even with that knowledge Ned may think nothing will come of it, but shes not, so telling her creates the potential for action on her part that could be a threat to Jon.

Telling a secret that is dangerous to Jon to anyone who doesn't value the secret as much creates a threat to Jon. Howland Reed may not put much weight in terms of Jon's life, but he is not prone to action, and presents little increased risk.

Or to put it another way, when telling someone a secret, ask yourselves these 2 question:

1) Will this person see things the same way I do? (I would say Ned could fairly safely say no).

2) Will this person act on this knowledge? (And here I think Catelyn showed herself to be someone who is prone to action, so it would be safe for Ned to assume she was a risk).

Given that, telling her seems extremely risky.

[Lady Blackfish]

"Stepmother" implies familial obligation. Catelyn does not have a familial obligation to Jon. She did not marry Ned with the foreknowledge that Jon exists, she never agreed to take on a surrogate mother role and nobody in that world expects her to.

She tolerated Jon, she did not roll out the red carpet for him but she did not interfere in his making basic bonds with the rest of the family or living a pretty good life, despite the fact that he is really not supposed to be there.

[Nine of Spades]

"Stepmother" implies familial obligation. Catelyn does not have a familial obligation to Jon. She did not marry Ned with the foreknowledge that Jon exists, she never agreed to take on a surrogate mother role and nobody in that world expects her to.

Stepmother is quite clearly defined there, and she meets the definition quite clearly (as far as anyone knows). If you want to excuse her behavior then do it, but don't say she isn't something that she is (again, as far as anyone knows, R+L=J is making this a needlessly complicated statement).

[Lady Blackfish]

That's a modern definition that really depends on a modern concept of the family, a concept which has not been stable throughout time. A stepmother is the mother figure of a blended family, and Cat and Jon are not family, blended or otherwise. If you want to use the word in this context then recognize it's next to meaningless here.

[AquariumDrinker]

If I brought a child from another woman home after being away for a year, my wife would make Cat look like a saint.

[Lady Blackfish]

I think this had better be my last post in the thread, because what's being said that hasn't been said before?

I don't think Cat was a saint for merely tolerating Jon, though neither do I think she mistreated him. Personally, I can't empathize with her resentment much, I'm much more inclined to spontaneously empathize with Jon on this point owing to my own life experiences. I get why she'd be uncomfortable around him and not able to love him like her own, or at all, but so much simmering anger, for fifteen years? Really?

Intellectually, however, it clicks for me. When she married Ned, she wasn't in love with him, and barely knew what kind of person he was. She had to interpret his unorthodox behavior regarding Jon as best she could, and at that time it was very natural for her to instinctively regard Jon as a threat to her children by virtue of what he might mean to his father. As time went on, I think that's when the reflexive jealousy started, because she actually started to love her husband. It's her duty to love him, and more than that, it's hard to live a life without trying to be happy, and it's hard to be happy without trying to move on. I think she tried to move on but failed. IMO even her thoughts about Ashara Dayne, if she prays for her son and how she felt when Ned left her, etc, shows that she tries to be mature and compassionate, and not petty. But she fails to totally rise above, and I think it has a lot to do with the fact that she is forced into the entire situation - the marriage, the presence of Jon, the not knowing who his mother is - without so much as a consult. It may be all a woman is entitled to in this society, but it doesn't mean said woman is going to like it, and every time she tries to force herself to be okay with it there's an equal but opposite reaction buried in the less pretty parts of her psyche.

So I think it's a realistic portrayal of someone who is given no outlet, still that doesn't make the fact that Jon is the target of her resentment any less unseemly, even though I regard it as more of a by-product than something intentional. It's not really supposed to be something we admire her for, and it's not rational. But given that she feels that way about him I think it's wiser for her to keep her cold, aloof distance. Not heroic, but probably for the best given that she can't make herself feel differently about him, and the most to realistically expect.

And I don't really have a problem with people not being able to get over her resentment, but to act like she's worse than people who murder babies or toss kids out of windows is just ... I don't even.

[mormont]

Um, yes she is, at least, she is as far as she knows.

http://www.merriam-w...nary/stepmother

": the wife of one's father when distinct from one's natural or legal mother "

No offence, but that reasoning is utterly ridiculous. How can you possibly cite a modern real-world definition and then suggest that a character in a fictional fantasy world 'knows' that definition, and that it applies to her?

So far as Cat, or anyone else in Westeros knows, including Ned: by every societal norm in their world, Cat has no parental relationship of any kind with Jon. That's utterly clear. The only argument against it are these attempts to project the norms of our society onto a totally different situation. The argument that Cat is Jon's stepmother is about as valid as a suggestion that she could have divorced Ned for infidelity and been awarded half of Winterfell in the settlement.

So yes, Catelyn may have acted in a way that was appropriate for the time, but she felt no real disquiet about it, it didn't seem to bother her conscience much at all. And that is what I don't respect.

That's fair enough, from one point of view. I find it difficult to respect Washington because he was a slave-owner. He did something that to my modern sensibilities is very wrong. But there's a difference between saying that, and saying that he was doing something wrong by the standards of his time. And in your above suggestion that Cat was Jon's stepmother, you inevitably get into that territory.

Also, I would say that Cat's conscience does bother her. Refer back to that meeting with Mya: she feels 'guilt' when she thinks of Jon.

[tuthmoses]

But Catelyn doesn't hate Jon. And didn't break vows to take a position that was not hers but she coveted. And isn't a living symbol of Jon's significant other cheating on him, forced on him, for years.

Anyway, let Jon simmer 15 years with the offer of Winterfell dangling in front of him, and then we'll talk. (Also, let him marry, have his wife cheat on him then force him to raise her son as an equal to his own)

Reminds me of good old Ned to Cersei "you cheated on Robert and had a kid with someone else, you thus must go into exile or you'll be put to death".

1. She DOES hate him i think that much is made pretty clear, taking it otherwise as indifference to him or whatever is little more than a misreading of the book. If he died in a hunting accident she would be happy not indifferent i.e she hates him. - she even wishes him dead ... "it should have been you" etc ... thats not indifference its down right hate.

2. The hate is irrational. Just because Ned did whatever it is not justification to hate an innocent child. Instead of directing her anger at Ned she directs it at Jon.

[nevermore]

Before this thread gets any more repetitive, I want to say one thing: the discussion that started from the OP was not about how Catelyn treated Jon well. Nobody is making the argument that Cat was nice to Jon or that Jon wasn't aware that he was different from his siblings and that she wanted him elsewhere. There was a quote from Martin himself saying as much. Nobody imagines Catelyn ever actively did much for Jon.

What was being debated was if Catelyn's behavior toward Jon constitutes mistreatment (or "shitty treatment" if you'd prefer). We already covered the ground that Catelyn usually did not verbally abuse Jon, apart from the incident at Bran's bedside, didn't physically abuse him, did not go out of her way to prevent his basic needs from being met, although she would not take on the responsibility herself of seeing that they were. She begged Ned to send Jon away on many occasions and refused to house him without Ned present to be his parent.

Now we can talk about if that's mistreatment or not, but if we don't set a parameter on this thread it's just going to turn into the mess these threads always turn into.

just to be clear, her interaction with Jon for me is just a way of showing she isn't a saint.

[Daena the Defiant]

In response to the general points:

Catelyn had nothing to do with Jon being reared in palatial luxury befitting a noble's son, so that is mistreatment.

Hoookay.

[Grogsmash]

Here you have someone that all your children love. Who loves your children and would clearly put his life on the line to protect them. Who has done you no personal harm. Has lived with you since a babe.

Sorry but Catelyn had plenty of reasons to like Jon. I think it is completely reasonable that people think her clear dislike of him to be absurd. Hell, at the time Jon was born, Catelyn and Ned hardly even knew each other. If nothing else, I would hope that a good person would have been motivated to like him simply from how much he loved her own children.

Her dislike of Jon makes even less sense then stepparents disliking children from a previous marriage. While this does happen all the time, it also makes me dislike these parents for doing so.

[AquariumDrinker]

Her dislike of Jon makes even less sense then stepparents disliking children from a previous marriage. While this does happen all the time, it also makes me dislike these parents for doing so.

Jon is nothing like a child from a previous marriage, he is a walking and talking monument dedicated to her husbands infidelity. He is also a very real threat her childrens birthright.

I love all of these characters in these books for just this reason, they all are complicated and real. Good people can have issues and it makes the books so very interesting and fun to read.

[Grogsmash]

he is a walking and talking monument dedicated to her husbands infidelity.

That gives her a reasonable reason to hate NED, not Jon.

He is also a very real threat her childrens birthright.

Hogwash. The only way for him to get any rights is if all the other children are dead. Who is the next in line of succession to King of the North if Ned and all the children are dead? Does she hate this person also?

I love all of these characters in these books for just this reason, they all are complicated and real. Good people can have issues and it makes the books so very interesting and fun to read.

We agree. I just happen to dislike Catelyn, just like I dislike many people in the real world.

[AquariumDrinker]

Hogwash. The only way for him to get any rights is if all the other children are dead. Who is the next in line of succession to King of the North if Ned and all the children are dead? Does she hate this person also?

Look at the Blackfyre Rebellion too see the kind of problems a legitimized bastard can cause.

***ETA***

Im moving way of topic and I am not going to continue. Cat wasn't mean to Jon, just distant. Jon lived better than 99.9% of the people in the world and would have died with Rob had he not gone to the wall.

[Grogsmash]

Look at the Blackfyre Rebellion too see the kind of problems a legitimized bastard can cause.

No one talked about legitimizing Jon at all.

Cat wasn't mean to Jon, just distant.

False.

Jon lived better than 99.9% of the people in the world

Completely beside the point. Plus she essentially forced him onto The Wall which anyone in the realm can freely go to, yet almost no one does.

and would have died with Rob had he not gone to the wall.

We have no way of knowing that and again has nothing to do with how Catelyn should have treated Jon.

[Lord Godric]

False.

No it is absolutely true. The one time she was mean to Jon was the scene in which we see at Bran's bedside.