Catelyn

[Grogsmash]

No it is absolutely true. The one time she was mean to Jon was the scene in which we see at Bran's bedside.

We know AT LEAST of one more, when she kicks him out of the only home he has ever had.

[Lord Godric]

We know AT LEAST of one more, when she kicks him out of the only home he has ever had.

Oh really? When did that happen? When Jon's father decided he should join the Night's Watch since he nearly volunteered with Benjen? A place where instead of forever being a bastard Jon could (and did) rise to high and respectable positions?

[Grogsmash]

Oh really? When did that happen? When Jon's father decided he should join the Night's Watch since he nearly volunteered with Benjen? A place where instead of forever being a bastard Jon could (and did) rise to high and respectable positions?

When did that happen? Why it happened when Catelyn said he couldn't stay there when Ned left. Again, the aftereffects are beside the point. She kicked him out of the only home he ever had for something that wasn't his fault.

Don't get me wrong, I think Ned is also at fault for this. He should have stood up to her about this, found another place for him, etc. He was going to be Hand of the King, he could have brought him to King's Landing also if he had wanted. At least for a few years, until Jon was old enough to truly come to his own decision about the Watch. Not a hasty decision brought on by youth, depression and alcohol.

[Whatever]

I think Ned is also at fault for this. He should have stood up to her about this, found another place for him, etc. He was going to be Hand of the King, he could have brought him to King's Landing also if he had wanted. At least for a few years, until Jon was old enough to truly come to his own decision about the Watch. Not a hasty decision brought on by youth, depression and alcohol.

I agree here. Ned surely knew how the wall was really like, and he should have made clear with jon on this.

[Lord Godric]

When did that happen? Why it happened when Catelyn said he couldn't stay there when Ned left. Again, the aftereffects are beside the point. She kicked him out of the only home he ever had for something that wasn't his fault.

So if this is your definition of mean, then Ned (for actually sending Jon to the Wall) and Maester Luwin (for suggesting Jon be sent to the Wall) and Benjen (for telling Maester Luwin that Jon showed interest in the Wall and for bringing Jon to the Wall) were also being mean to Jon in the same sense that Catelyn was. You can't really blame Catelyn. The reason she did not want Jon to stay at Winterfell was because he was no child of hers, and they had developed no relationship, because she was always distant from him. He is Ned's blood, not Catelyn's. And it is not Catelyn who is to blame for not wanting to take on the responsibility of parent to a child she never wanted. But Ned, who thinks King's Landing is no place for his bastard and instead thinks the Wall is. Catelyn is being no more 'mean' to Jon in this particular instance than Ned is by not taking Jon with him or finding suitable arrangement. I just find it hard not to feel sympathy with Catelyn here. She loves Ned, nearly unconditionally, but the one thing she can not forgive him for is Jon. And now Ned wants to dump the responsibility of raising Jon onto her? I don't see this as Catelyn being mean (and I don't see her being solely responsible for 'kicking Jon out of his only home'), but simply because no relationship had ever grown between Jon and Catelyn (which is entirely Catelyn's fault) having Jon stay at Winterfell, while two of her actual children were being taken away, was not an appropriate solution for Catelyn, and she tells Ned so.

[Grogsmash]

So if this is your definition of mean, then Ned (for actually sending Jon to the Wall) and Maester Luwin (for suggesting Jon be sent to the Wall) and Benjen (for telling Maester Luwin that Jon showed interest in the Wall and for bringing Jon to the Wall) were also being mean to Jon in the same sense that Catelyn was. You can't really blame Catelyn.

Their reasons for doing so are entirely different though. I wish I had my book handy but I seem to remember that passage sounding like Catelyn said it in spite. It certainly wasn't in the vein you are putting it in, that she just didnt feel attached to him and so didnt feel he would be comfortable there or something. It was like she wanted to punish Ned and she knew that doing this to Jon would hurt him. Once Catelyn had absolutely refused to see Jon as anything but an enemy, none of the options were that good. So they chose the Wall because Ned didnt have the courage to take him to Kings Landing.

Still, obviously the best would have been for Ned to have told her that she damn well will just have to deal with Jon being at Winterfell. Not only was she denying Jon his home, but also Robb's best friend. Robb sure could have used a friend later.

[Lord Godric]

Their reasons for doing so are entirely different though. I wish I had my book handy but I seem to remember that passage sounding like Catelyn said it in spite. It certainly wasn't in the vein you are putting it in, that she just didnt feel attached to him and so didnt feel he would be comfortable there or something. It was like she wanted to punish Ned and she knew that doing this to Jon would hurt him. Once Catelyn had absolutely refused to see Jon as anything but an enemy, none of the options were that good. So they chose the Wall because Ned didnt have the courage to take him to Kings Landing.

I don't think she was worried about how comfortable Jon would have been with Ned gone, no. It certainly is because she does not want Jon there, which I went on to talk about in my previous post. She does not want to play the role of mother to Jon, because she will never accept Jon's role in her family. But I still don't interpret this as being "mean" toward Jon. It's an entirely understandable and sympathetic position. Besides, there are other options besides just King's Landing-Winterfell-Wall. No one twisted Ned's arm to choose the Wall. It just appeared to be the best scenario for everyone involved. Catelyn didn't have to play mother to Jon. Ned didn't take Jon to King's Landing. And Jon can be a part of (what people in the North see as) an honorable institution where the name "Snow" doesn't matter.

Still, obviously the best would have been for Ned to have told her that she damn well will just have to deal with Jon being at Winterfell. Not only was she denying Jon his home, but also Robb's best friend. Robb sure could have used a friend later.

You really think that would be for the best? To leave Jon at Winterfell with Catelyn? Not only would they both be miserable with each other, but if there was ever a time that Catelyn would go beyond simply ignoring and neglecting Jon it would be when Ned was no longer at Winterfell.

[mormont]

Their reasons for doing so are entirely different though. I wish I had my book handy

No need. The passage is quoted in this thread.

Which suggests you haven't read the rest of the thread very closely: and indeed, quite a few of the points you raise suggest the same, because you're raising them as if they were new, when in fact they've been debated at length already. People, please read threads before you post. Otherwise the discussion is just going to go round in neverending circles.

[AquariumDrinker]

No one talked about legitimizing Jon at all.

It is not unreasonable for Cat to be worried about it happening, considering how Ned treates Jon. No matter how you look at it, Jon is a threat to her kids. Of course, this is for another thread as it has nothing to do with whether or not Cat was "mean" to Jon(poor baby). And I am a Jon fan, hell I like just about all the characters because I can understand them and the dumb moves they make make sense. It is amazing that GRRM has never had kids and can truly understand what a parent goes though.

We have no way of knowing that and again has nothing to do with how Catelyn should have treated Jon.

Which is why I mentioned me moving off topic in my post, but all the Cat hate threads begin run together in my head and nothing new is ever added.

[Whatever]

It is not unreasonable for Cat to be worried about it happening, considering how Ned treates Jon.

No way. If Ned had ever thought about that, he would have done it long time before.. you can't just raise a kid as a bastard (raised amog your other children, but still a bastard) for 14 years and then come up with a legimization (robert would have legitimized kon, if ned has asked)

IMHO, if robb had been cat's only son, then ned would have tried to make jon legitimized... but no if this had meant to take away the other kid's birthrights.

[Lord Mord]

I like Catelyn. I get her sense of duty -- though I agree that she gets her actual duties mixed up sometimes. Dozens of the characters we meet: Balon Greyjoy, Tywin, Cersei, Walder Frey, Gregor Clegane, Renly, Baelish, Pycelle, the new High Septon ... their moral systems are based almost exclusively on the self as the highest imperative, with utter -- not merely disregard but open contept -- for honor, for truth, and for responsibility to the wellbeing of others. They are incapable of shame.

This is more than zero-sum -- I get it, it's not enough to just be not-Cersei in order to be cool, but Catelyn has always struck me as bent in the direction of upholding truth, justice, and duty. Okay, so lots of people don't agree she had to go South -- yeah, you're looking at it from different sides. So the fuck what? I'm sorry -- where is the peril to Winterfell? Robb is basically a man grown, at least in his own culture, and why not? And, seriously, she is going to magically make it all better by being there instead?

I look on her as most liberals look on the Democratic Party. Dear, oh, dear, oh, dear ... So many problems. You frustrate me! Why can't you just get it right! But ... you are certainly trying. You do a lot, you try very hard and do what you think you can. And in Catelyn's case, she can take criticism, she can feel shame, and when shamed she grows with it.

[Errant Bard]

No way. If Ned had ever thought about that, he would have done it long time before.. you can't just raise a kid as a bastard (raised amog your other children, but still a bastard) for 14 years and then come up with a legimization

You certainly can. That's actually how all the bastards we know about have been legitimized: the guy gets tired of the wife/family, comes to like the bastard more than the others, or has need of another heir right now and the bastard becomes trueborn. Worked for Aegon 4, worked for Roose Bolton.

And Jon was not raised as a bastard, he was raised as a trueborn while telling him he was a bastard... There were absolutely no difference between Robb and Jon in their upbringing, thanks to Ned. This is certainly no reassurance about what may come next when Ned becomes older and is still susceptible to change his mind.

[Lord Godric]

You certainly can. That's actually how all the bastards we know about have been legitimized: the guy gets tired of the wife/family, comes to like the bastard more than the others, or has need of another heir right now and the bastard becomes trueborn. Worked for Aegon 4, worked for Roose Bolton.

And Jon was not raised as a bastard, he was raised as a trueborn while telling him he was a bastard... There were absolutely no difference between Robb and Jon in their upbringing, thanks to Ned. This is certainly no reassurance about what may come next when Ned becomes older and is still susceptible to change his mind.

Ned is far too honorable to put Jon before his real children. It would dishonor the Stark and Tully houses. If Catelyn doesn't know that about Ned, she drastically misinterpreted her husband.

[Arianne of Sunspear]

Ned is far too honorable to put Jon before his real children. It would dishonor the Stark and Tully houses. If Catelyn doesn't know that about Ned, she drastically misinterpreted her husband.

People keep dancing around this like it is a hypothetical situation, but the events in the books have shown how fragile this whole idea is - in the end, Catelyn's trueborn child was cut out of the will in favor Jon Snow by 'a' Lord Stark.

Its not that this was an eminently predictable turn of events, but the fact remains, from the perspective of a dynastic matriarch, it is a very real concern. What if Robb died early and in a time of crisis, the choices were either the small children Bran or Rickon, the daughters, Sansa or Arya, or, hey, here's Jon Snow, a man grown, raised just like Robb! What if the choices boiled down to Robb Stark's infant son, adult Sansa and her foreign husband, crippled Brandon, or hey, here's Jon Snow, a man gown, raised just like Robb!

Catelyn grew up in tumultuous and precarious times - House Stark was vastly thinned (Rickard, Brandon, Lyanna), her own mother had a succession of unsuccessful pregnancies, her uncle was off on foreign campaigns against the LAST of the Blackfyre pretenders, and she came of age in a civil war where many houses were thinned out, dispossessed and even extinguished: can people really be so cavalier in thinking that she should have known that each of her large brood of children was guaranteed to be raised to maturity, placed in loving happy homes and have a successful future? She can't, she shouldn't (that would be foolish) and so, Jon Snow's existence is a non-abstract threat ALWAYS.

And, Catelyn HAS NO IDEA who Jon Snow is - she knows that he is the son of her husband and she suspects that his mother was the first great love of Ned's life, Ashara Dayne: Ned Stark is a man of many secrets - can you really be so sure that her concern that MAYBE this boy who is MAYBE maybe the product of Ned's reputed great love hold a treasured place in Ned's heart above the children he sired upon her, placed next to him in what was a make-do political marriage, and was a substitute arrangement. Catelyn was to marry Brandon Stark, after all - can you really say for certain - based upon the way that Ned threatened her that one time - and rubbed her face with Jon's presence at her hearth each and every day that she can reasonably assume that his intentions are so plain and noble? That he doesn't secretly resent Catelyn for not being Ashara, and for being slightly and subtly peeved that events forced him to marry Catelyn to preserve a political pact, instead of Ashara, whom he loved and who killed herself as a possible result of the man she loved being forced to marry elsewhere due to politics?

We have the liberty of surfing around in Ned's thoughts; Catelyn does not. She came to love him (because, what other choice, really - he wasn't actively cruel, just psychologically abusive). As a prudent and intelligent woman, since Ned never told her the rruth and threatened her when she asked, she can have no way of being as certain as you think she should be.

[Asha—Not Yara!]

As has been brought up before, I think part of Catelyn dislike of Jon is because of the threat Jon's children could pose later down the line her children and grandchildren should any of them prove greedy and power hungry (of which there is precedence for that occurring elsewhere). That's one reason among others why having Jon serve on the Wall was a good solution. I seriously doubt Catelyn had much fear about Ned choosing to legitimize Jon.

[mormont]

Ned is far too honorable to put Jon before his real children. It would dishonor the Stark and Tully houses. If Catelyn doesn't know that about Ned, she drastically misinterpreted her husband.

Ned raised Jon alongside his trueborn children, something that is seen - and not just by Cat - as dishonouring the Tully house. Ned has shown on many occasions that he'll do what he thinks is right, and what he thinks is necessary, and if other people think it dishonours his house or any other house, that's their problem. As such, if he thought it either right or necessary to put Jon ahead of, say, Arya, he'd do it. That is not a misinterpretation of his character, IMO, certainly not a 'drastic' one.

And as Arianne says, it's not just about what Ned would do. Rubbishing Cat's worries about Jon because you think Ned's a pretty straight guy is not really a good argument.

[Whatever]

You certainly can. That's actually how all the bastards we know about have been legitimized: the guy gets tired of the wife/family, comes to like the bastard more than the others, or has need of another heir right now and the bastard becomes trueborn. Worked for Aegon 4, worked for Roose Bolton.

And Jon was not raised as a bastard, he was raised as a trueborn while telling him he was a bastard... There were absolutely no difference between Robb and Jon in their upbringing, thanks to Ned. This is certainly no reassurance about what may come next when Ned becomes older and is still susceptible to change his mind.

Aegon IV didn't need an heir, there was an heir yet. This was the reason for the rebellion.

I guess he just wanted to die with his conscience clean.

Ned has never shown any signs that he "liked the bastard more than the others"

I mean, ned is ned.. did we read the same books?

Ned is far too honorable to put Jon before his real children. It would dishonor the Stark and Tully houses. If Catelyn doesn't know that about Ned, she drastically misinterpreted her husband.

:agree:

Its not that this was an eminently predictable turn of events, but the fact remains, from the perspective of a dynastic matriarch, it is a very real concern. What if Robb died early and in a time of crisis, the choices were either the small children Bran or Rickon, the daughters, Sansa or Arya, or, hey, here's Jon Snow, a man grown, raised just like Robb! What if the choices boiled down to Robb Stark's infant son, adult Sansa and her foreign husband, crippled Brandon, or hey, here's Jon Snow, a man gown, raised just like Robb!

Robb and Bran have only 5 years of difference.

Ned and Robb were both still alive and there was no crisis as far as she knew.

Even if ned and robb both die in an arc of a couple of years, then bran would be 12.. not too young.

Sansa wasnt expect to marry for a couple of years at least, and winterfell was full of loyal ned's men.

and then, again, catelyn should have been really, really blind to not see the relationship between jon and the starks. he would never harm them.

And, Catelyn HAS NO IDEA who Jon Snow is - she knows that he is the son of her husband and she suspects that his mother was the first great love of Ned's life, Ashara Dayne: Ned Stark is a man of many secrets - can you really be so sure that her concern that MAYBE this boy who is MAYBE maybe the product of Ned's reputed great love hold a treasured place in Ned's heart above the children he sired upon her, placed next to him in what was a make-do political marriage, and was a substitute arrangement.

Please, Catelyn knew ned and how much he loved his children. She would never have thought something like that.. she is not thta blind.

Catelyn was to marry Brandon Stark, after all - can you really say for certain - based upon the way that Ned threatened her that one time - and rubbed her face with Jon's presence at her hearth each and every day that she can reasonably assume that his intentions are so plain and noble?

Please. Catelyn knew ned enough, she would never

Threatned? He said something like "don't ask me this anymore". Maybe he was scaring her, but sure he didn't threatned her. Come on, it's ned we are talking about!

We have the liberty of surfing around in Ned's thoughts; Catelyn does not. She came to love him (because, what other choice, really - he wasn't actively cruel, just psychologically abusive). As a prudent and intelligent woman, since Ned never told her the rruth and threatened her when she asked, she can have no way of being as certain as you think she should be.

Wait... ned was psychologically abusive? NED?

And then if catelyn doesn't know him well enough after 15 years of marriage.. well, it's pleanty evident she trusted him and loved him. Even catelyn would never have thought about such things

[Lady Blackfish]

And, Catelyn HAS NO IDEA who Jon Snow is - she knows that he is the son of her husband and she suspects that his mother was the first great love of Ned's life, Ashara Dayne: Ned Stark is a man of many secrets - can you really be so sure that her concern that MAYBE this boy who is MAYBE maybe the product of Ned's reputed great love hold a treasured place in Ned's heart above the children he sired upon her, placed next to him in what was a make-do political marriage, and was a substitute arrangement. Catelyn was to marry Brandon Stark, after all - can you really say for certain - based upon the way that Ned threatened her that one time - and rubbed her face with Jon's presence at her hearth each and every day that she can reasonably assume that his intentions are so plain and noble? That he doesn't secretly resent Catelyn for not being Ashara, and for being slightly and subtly peeved that events forced him to marry Catelyn to preserve a political pact, instead of Ashara, whom he loved and who killed herself as a possible result of the man she loved being forced to marry elsewhere due to politics?

You know, it drives me absolutely nuts (nuts enough to post again even though I said I wouldn't ...) how people will say that Catelyn is both delusional for thinking that Ned loved her and that she is paranoid for thinking that he loved someone else more. Nothing Catelyn can do or think will ever satisfy people.

Ned is honorable, but Catelyn is wise enough to know that honor is nothing compared to love. He may have come to love her, but that doesn't mean he didn't love that other woman more. If she sometimes wondered how far Ned's love would go, that's certainly understandable. Even then, as I've said a billion times, Catelyn doesn't actually ever dwell on the idea of Ned legitimizing Jon, she is more worried about future generations, at least as far as the text suggests.

[Lord Godric]

People keep dancing around this like it is a hypothetical situation, but the events in the books have shown how fragile this whole idea is - in the end, Catelyn's trueborn child was cut out of the will in favor Jon Snow by 'a' Lord Stark.

Its not that this was an eminently predictable turn of events, but the fact remains, from the perspective of a dynastic matriarch, it is a very real concern. What if Robb died early and in a time of crisis, the choices were either the small children Bran or Rickon, the daughters, Sansa or Arya, or, hey, here's Jon Snow, a man grown, raised just like Robb! What if the choices boiled down to Robb Stark's infant son, adult Sansa and her foreign husband, crippled Brandon, or hey, here's Jon Snow, a man gown, raised just like Robb!

Robb made Jon his heir because all of his siblings are believed dead, missing or in Lannister custody. If Robb made Sansa his heir and Sansa remained in Lannister custody he would have been giving Winterfell to the Lannisters, which would defeat the purpose of the whole war. Think how easily Cersei could manipulate Sansa, the Lady Stark, into commanding her people swear fealty to Joffrey. If Bran or Rickon were not believed to be dead I believe Robb would have in a heartbeat named them his rightful heir. Bran had already been playing Lord of Winterfell for quite some time before he "was killed." If Robb had gotten his wife pregnant, I don't doubt he would have named his son heir and then named a regent. The only reason Jon was chosen was because there were no other choices. Sure it is Catelyn's worst nightmare, but it is only under extreme circumstances that it happened.

can people really be so cavalier in thinking that she should have known that each of her large brood of children was guaranteed to be raised to maturity, placed in loving happy homes and have a successful future?

No, the fear that one or maybe even two of her children would die is not an out-of-place thought for Catelyn. But the thought that all of them would die and one would be held prisoner is not a realistic thought. Even if Catelyn assumed all of her children would die, then what would happen to Winterfell? Who would inherit it? Jon only got named heir when all of her own children were not real choices.

I also believe that Martin said something about "Only a truthful King can legitimize Jon." With Robb dead and his army defeated his claim that Jon is the rightful Lord of Winterfell holds no water, no matter what Robb claimed.

[Lord Godric]

As such, if he thought it either right or necessary to put Jon ahead of, say, Arya, he'd do it. That is not a misinterpretation of his character, IMO, certainly not a 'drastic' one.

Assuming R+L=J, Ned would never put Jon before Arya. Jon would only inherit after all of his children were dead. Sure, Catelyn doesn't know that, but that is why I believe it would be OOC for Ned to put Jon before the rightful heir.