Dany gets under my skin sometimes...

[Black Sheep]

haters gotta hate...

villain-sue!!! LOL good one!

j'qhen hqar is an assassin-sue!!!! he always gets out of trouble and everything seems to fall into place for him, too! What a boring character!

Arya is totally a tom-boy-turned-assassin sue too, she always comes out ahead in everything, i mean, come on!, she gets to be an assassin and kill people and nothing bad ever happens to her either! she's totally living the dream. what a weak character.

and cersei, what a psycho-bitch sue. nuff said.

then theres jamie, what a badass sue. i mean really, nobody can beat him unless he's been in chains for a year or he's only got 1 hand, pathetic stuff..

and tyrion is a dwarf sue. i mean, hes a dwarf? get real...

and what about that comet? what a stupid comet-sue, all fallin through the cosmos toward the sun then whipping around and doin it all again, how B-O-R-I-N-G!!!

and whats with the tyrells? total royalty-sue's. i mean, everything goes there way, everything. No matter who gets murdered by shadow assassins, the tyrells are just way too... typical. yawn.

and the hound! jeez, what a emo-hardass sue he is. ooooo, i'm a clegane! i hate my brother! oooo look at my horrible face! oooo i want to fvck a 13 year old girl. whatev, get some character, will ya? jeez...

really, the whole series is a fantasy-series-sue, if you ask me. totally boring, w/ boring characters that nothing bad ever happens to, and if it does, they always come out on top. F that!

i want a book where everybody rapes everybody and everybody dies, and nobody ever wins cuz everybody is always a-dying and getting raped.

epic post :laugh: :laugh:

[The Sand Snake]

Good god, Dany was never raped.

Even the first time she had sex with Drogo, by the time he actually penetrated her she was all for it.

I have no idea why this board has such a fucked up "everything is rape, and rape is the most evil thing imaginable" mentality.

I agree. People have been raped in the series. But not Dany. Drogo didn't rape her. I don't know why everyones freaking out about that.

[Lord Godric]

Depends. If all the other POV's as they meet Dany's POV begin to fawn over her, then I'd be really worried. However, if they show a different perception that will probably make Dany more bearable as a character.

Agreed. I look forward to seeing Tyrion's impression of Dany.

[iamthedave]

I agree. People have been raped in the series. But not Dany. Drogo didn't rape her. I don't know why everyones freaking out about that.

It's the description of him mounting her until it hurt every night whether she liked it or not, and the fact she was riding til it was agony every day.

There's an argument, vaguely, but it comes to pieces due to the fact Dany eventually grows to love it and it becomes completely consensual - if rough - sex between man and wife.

And really, you look at the description of their first time, Drogo was really, REALLY nice to her, and actually very gentle.

[Faint]

Hate to break it to people but that's most certainly rape under modern sensibilities and in most places in, under modern law. The whole point is that the sex is not consensual. This isn't rocket science.

[Joy Lannister]

... *stares in horror*

Oh dear God, I just realized I'm nothing but a despicable Mary Sue! Not every mistake I've made in my life has come later to bite me - can I be more Mary Sue-ish?

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

I mean c'mon how many of those deaths does she actually mourn? Mother? Father? Nephew? Neice? Rhaegar? No. Viserys? Hardly. Drogo and Rhaego are the only two, and even then she was hardly suffering.

Wait... so you're annoyed at Dany because she didn't complain about her suffering enough? Personally, I agree that she is rather stoic to the suffering she has gone through unlike some notable others *COUGHJONCOUGH*. But does a character being stoic mean they never really suffered? No it doesn't. In fact it usually means they suffer a lot more than you would guess.

As a side, previous posters have been annoyed at Dany, saying how she "whines" ALL THE TIME about her suffering so I would like to know, which is it? Double Standard Alert!! :rolleyes:

[The Sand Snake]

Hate to break it to people but that's most certainly rape under modern sensibilities and in most places in, under modern law. The whole point is that the sex is not consensual. This isn't rocket science.

If this happened in Modern Times with modern sensibilities you'd be right. However, it didn't.

[Faint]

If this happened in Modern Times with modern sensibilities you'd be right. However, it didn't.

So we, as readers, are supposed to look at this point imagining we are barbarians from medieval times? It makes no difference whether the characters don't consider it rape or not, or, for that matter, whether we consider it rape or not, it's not as if that makes Daenerys feel any better. The whole point is she didn't consent and did not enjoy the experience. Call it rape, call it normal, call it whatever you want, but you're only ever really arguing semantics.

[SummerKnight]

The whole point is she didn't consent and did not enjoy the experience.

whoah! whoah! whoah!

she did too enjoy it. I distinctly remember her saying 'yes' after drogo worked her into a lather. come on, people, Drogo may be a horse riding savage, but even he knows what foreplay is (do you?). and apparently, he's not too shabby at it.

besides, who cares? you guys are missing the point of this wonderfully original and well thought out thread. Dany gets under the op's skin cuz she's a mary-sue. get w/ the pogram you internet-forum-hater-posting-sues. :)

[Errant Bard]

... *stares in horror*

Oh dear God, I just realized I'm nothing but a despicable Mary Sue! Not every mistake I've made in my life has come later to bite me - can I be more Mary Sue-ish?

I don't know...

Do you have some tragic backstory?

Did you experience tragic loss but in exchange gained a nuclear bomb?

Can you walk into fire unscathed?

Do you have magical pets from an extinct specy?

Are you "the most beautiful woman in the world"?

Do your eyes have an unnatural colouring?

What about your hair?

Are you from a royal "special" bloodline? (say, your family came from Amber)

Does a prophecy foretell your coming?

Do you manage to steal the merchandise and destroy the company of the salesmen you speak to, while keeping the moral high ground?

For that matter, did you manage to own a slave army while being against slavery?

Do the most powerful people from all around the world flock to you?

Do the people you conflict with happen to show themselves as the most evil guys ever?

Do the people you need to outsmart reveal themselves to be dumber than bricks?

Do the situations you need to overcome all have a convenient backdoor solution?

How many people are ready to die for you?

Did you manage to be a regional leader while always doing the right thing?

But does a character being stoic mean they never really suffered? No it doesn't. In fact it usually means they suffer a lot more than you would guess.

No. They are fiction characters, they don't suffer more or less than what is shown. Especially when we have their own thoughts. And if it's not shown, hinted or whatever, but it's infodumped later on... it's bad writing.

Not saying you cannot believe that behind his stoic exterior, Roose Bolton's sensible soul was hurt by the dilemma posed by the war, and that he's now really suffering from guilt and insecurity, but come on.

[Talleyrand]

I don't know...

Do you have some tragic backstory?

Did you experience tragic loss but in exchange gained a nuclear bomb?

Can you walk into fire unscathed?

Do you have magical pets from an extinct specy?

Are you "the most beautiful woman in the world"?

Do your eyes have an unnatural colouring?

What about your hair?

Are you from a royal "special" bloodline? (say, your family came from Amber)

Does a prophecy foretell your coming?

Do you manage to steal the merchandise and destroy the company of the salesmen you speak to, while keeping the moral high ground?

For that matter, did you manage to own a slave army while being against slavery?

Do the most powerful people from all around the world flock to you?

Do the people you conflict with happen to show themselves as the most evil guys ever?

Do the people you need to outsmart reveal themselves to be dumber than bricks?

Do the situations you need to overcome all have a convenient backdoor solution?

How many people are ready to die for you?

Did you manage to be a regional leader while always doing the right thing?

Yes, apart from the most beautiful woman thing

[Joy Lannister]

I don't know...

Do you have some tragic backstory?

Did you experience tragic loss but in exchange gained a nuclear bomb?

Can you walk into fire unscathed?

Do you have magical pets from an extinct specy?

Are you "the most beautiful woman in the world"?

Do your eyes have an unnatural colouring?

What about your hair?

Are you from a royal "special" bloodline? (say, your family came from Amber)

Does a prophecy foretell your coming?

Do you manage to steal the merchandise and destroy the company of the salesmen you speak to, while keeping the moral high ground?

For that matter, did you manage to own a slave army while being against slavery?

Do the most powerful people from all around the world flock to you?

Do the people you conflict with happen to show themselves as the most evil guys ever?

Do the people you need to outsmart reveal themselves to be dumber than bricks?

Do the situations you need to overcome all have a convenient backdoor solution?

How many people are ready to die for you?

Did you manage to be a regional leader while always doing the right thing?

Touché.

Still, characters more Mary Sue-ish than Dany can be found in the history of our own world, so I'm not too annoyed by her. I would be annoyed if there wasn't anyone at all who ever managed to achieve anything in the series.

I'll start getting worried about Dany if she reaches Rand al'Thor-levels of Sueness.

[Errant Bard]

Still, characters more Mary Sue-ish than Dany can be found in the history of our own world, so I'm not too annoyed by her.

Who?

In my mind a Mary Sue cannot happen outside of a narrative, because the only definitive defining trait of such an archetype is to bend that narrative their way so everything happens to further their in-story power growth. It's in the end an issue about writing and presentation of the character to the readers, not of some "objective", "real" personality those characters are supposed to have.

Dany would not be called a Sue nearly as much if she had had the same counterparts (and PoV characters) as anyone else, say, Robb Stark (and the guy is the one with magical worlf and half a continent, genius at leading armies and all that). If, indeed, she had decided to nail Ned (among other people) to signposts, or stolen Robb's army (with the same betraying move), or burned a lazharite Arya, and more generally was shown through other people's eyes (like the Tyrion/Cat dynamics, but not only,) in short, if she had real flaws made visible, then it's unlikely the word Sue would be thrown.

[nevermore]

Who?

In my mind a Mary Sue cannot happen outside of a narrative, because the only definitive defining trait of such an archetype is to bend that narrative their way so everything happens to further their in-story power growth. It's in the end an issue about writing and presentation of the character to the readers, not of some "objective", "real" personality those characters are supposed to have.

Dany would not be called a Sue nearly as much if she had had the same counterparts (and PoV characters) as anyone else, say, Robb Stark (and the guy is the one with magical worlf and half a continent, genius at leading armies and all that). If, indeed, she had decided to nail Ned (among other people) to signposts, or stolen Robb's army (with the same betraying move), or burned a lazharite Arya, and more generally was shown through other people's eyes (like the Tyrion/Cat dynamics, but not only,) in short, if she had real flaws made visible, then it's unlikely the word Sue would be thrown.

i doubt she is Mary Sue, go read WOT or some other book for that, the central focus of the books weren't even Daenerys so you could argue that all her actions are meaningless right now because Asshai, Mereen, Yukai aren't her main objective. she would become Mary Sue if she actually rode her dragon to Westeros and burnt the current king and sat on the throne. besides, it is too early and with George's temperament for characters we could just see her die without getting anything. Also the weakness thing is clearly laid out, the dragon horn could potentially flip everything in Iron born favour, her dragons aren't fully grown either. There are a lot of things left, besides i don't really buy that her dragons are lightbringer, so her role will be secondary in the end.

PS: Daenerys definitely wasn't raped, i mean would you consider Cersei as being raped because she didn't want to marry Robert? if it's like that the whole noble court would be rape because everything was arranged by family. Daenerys was betrothed to Drogo, not raped.

[Faint]

I've always thought that the term "Mary Sue" was used to connote the author's avatar within the story. By that measurement, I think Daenerys hardly qualifies. The more likely suspect would be Tyrion.

[Errant Bard]

I think you missed the point of the post you quoted. Cool down, it was about writing and reader perception, and asserting that being called a "Sue" is largely subjective.

[Xenophon]

Yeah, from the little I remember, my problem wasn't so much with the Daenerys character herself, as with the fact that everyone around her seemed two-dimensional after the first book. I thought her story was pretty good in AGoT, but later on it seemed like everything on the Eastern continent was cliched and unrealistic compared to the action on the Western continent.

[nevermore]

Yeah, from the little I remember, my problem wasn't so much with the Daenerys character herself, as with the fact that everyone around her seemed two-dimensional after the first book. I thought her story was pretty good in AGoT, but later on it seemed like everything on the Eastern continent was cliched and unrealistic compared to the action on the Western continent.

thats because everything was either slavers or slaves, or horse riding rapists or sheep people... it was pretty clear cut, though i did like the bit where they were in that city of merchant princes, that was close to westeros atmosphere.

[Mandurang]

I've always thought that the term "Mary Sue" was used to connote the author's avatar within the story. By that measurement, I think Daenerys hardly qualifies. The more likely suspect would be Tyrion.

More or less, but more less than more. "Mary Sue" denotes a character that is overly idealized and that functions as wish fulfillment. The most common criticism is that they lack flaws, are unrealistic, or that they are favored too much by the narrative. Tyrion does not really qualify as a Gary Stu, even if he is one of GRRM's favorites. His personality and mannerisms, though, may be somewhat based on Martin himself.

Even great authors sometimes include characters that are interpreted as projections of the author himself, but they are there for a specific reason, to promote the ideas and morality of the author, or even to question or ridicule them.