Dany gets under my skin sometimes...

[Seerow]

So we, as readers, are supposed to look at this point imagining we are barbarians from medieval times? It makes no difference whether the characters don't consider it rape or not, or, for that matter, whether we consider it rape or not, it's not as if that makes Daenerys feel any better. The whole point is she didn't consent and did not enjoy the experience. Call it rape, call it normal, call it whatever you want, but you're only ever really arguing semantics.

You're right, let's look at every character in the series' sex life from a modern point of view. I'm pretty sure that would leave us with pretty much every last one of them having been raped. Remember statutory rape is rape too, and most of these kids are out having sex at 12 or 13, well below the age of consent that the majority of us have.

Now that we're done determining that everyone has been raped, and has likely been a rapist, at some point or another, can we drop the subject of rape in the context of the books?

[Whatever]

I'll start getting worried about Dany if she reaches Rand al'Thor-levels of Sueness.

IMHO, Rand Al thor is not sue, because he is going to save the world dying, is full of various illness? wounds and, more important, is almost crazy. if dany will go mad, i will like her better. Maybe not Aerys-mad, but i'll be happy with an Al'thor level of madness (Read: one of more between paranoid, schizophrenic, superiority complex, knowledge of her imminent death, or failure, or end of the world).

[Nukelavee]

hmmm. do i dislike her character, or do i dislike her AS a character?

That's the real question. As a character destined to to major things in the story...no, I'm fine with that.

Do I dislike Dany as a person? By the latest chapters published, yes. Call it her sense of divine right, if you want. It's never occured to her, truly, if she deserves to rule, or if her family did. She just assumes, because they did, she does. She ignores that the Targ's were invaders.

She's out to overthrow cultures simply because they oppose or offend her (cause, you know, the Dothraki are SUCH good people), she becomes ruler of teh City more out of a lack of momentum than any other reason.

Plus, here she has Barristan, and she has YET to seem to ask for a little update on the last 15 years of Westeros.

But those things just annoy me, and are likely carry overs from other omni-babe characters by other writers.

Sigh - what I really hate, is the "blood of the dragon" crap. Not her belief in her House, her excuse for being a bitch. She gets angry, she snaps, and "DON'T WAKE THE DRAGON!". She's a bit of a bully. Makes me want, in a fanfic-ish way, to interupt her next time she pulls that and say "Yo, bitch, you like it when Visyrs said that and gave you purple-nurples?".

Barristan the Bold? Dany needs a 3 week course in Signy Mallory's Advanced Leadership Bootcamp.

bonus points for knowing who Mallory is.

[Faint]

"Mary Sue" denotes a character that is overly idealized and that functions as wish fulfillment.

Whose wish fulfillment though? Wouldn't that be the author's? I tend to doubt that the G.R.R.M. has some deep seated wish fulfillment that he is trying to live -- by proxy -- through Daenerys. That seems to be quite the stretch of the imagination.

[Xenophon]

thats because everything was either slavers or slaves, or horse riding rapists or sheep people... it was pretty clear cut, though i did like the bit where they were in that city of merchant princes, that was close to westeros atmosphere.

I agree; it was the society of irredeemably evil and incredibly stupid slaver traders that really pushed things over the edge for me. The Dothraki and the merchant princes may have been a little cartoonish, but at least they weren't in-your-face implausible, and there were some little hints that their society was actually more complex (like, if I remember right, the Dothraki lords get bought off with mansions in town despite generally following their whole "everything important happens outside" noble savage culture).

[iamthedave]

So we, as readers, are supposed to look at this point imagining we are barbarians from medieval times? It makes no difference whether the characters don't consider it rape or not, or, for that matter, whether we consider it rape or not, it's not as if that makes Daenerys feel any better. The whole point is she didn't consent and did not enjoy the experience. Call it rape, call it normal, call it whatever you want, but you're only ever really arguing semantics.

But... she loves him. She openly enjoys having sex with him. Many people felt awkward after the description of their first sex scene because it was an underage girl having a hot sex scene with a manly man. He very - VERY - clearly gets her hot, and wet, and she really wants it.

Later, after this horrific rape, she takes him outside, puts him flat on his back, and rides him.

This is not semantics! Can you point out any other character in the series who not only enjoys being 'raped' but loves the person doing it and comes to enjoy the experience?

Rape is considered so awful in modern times not because the act is horrible, but because of the vast psychological damage it does to the victim. Can you see even the slightest evidence of that damage in Dany? I compare her to Pretty Pia, who is raped 'hunnerds and hunnerds' of times, and goes from a sweet, innocent girl to a nigh-toothless one who 'smiles' at the sight of a severed head and hates to be seen because she's been ruined by her experiences.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

But... she loves him. She openly enjoys having sex with him. Many people felt awkward after the description of their first sex scene because it was an underage girl having a hot sex scene with a manly man. He very - VERY - clearly gets her hot, and wet, and she really wants it.

Later, after this horrific rape, she takes him outside, puts him flat on his back, and rides him.

Dany was not raped by Drogo on her wedding night in the book. She was also not raped by him when she was on top in the time you mentioned.

However, she was raped by him several times between these two times, in that she screamed and cried in pain, and asked him to stop because it hurt so much.

A woman can enjoy having sex with her husband one day, and be raped by him the next day. This is not hypocracy in any way, and if you don't realize this I pity anyone in a relationship with you.

[Nukelavee]

wow.

this isn't a discussion of modern definitions of rape, and particularly not a discussion of a pretty strident point of view in this context.

I'm seriously baffled by the extremes of being gone through to somehow redefine what is clearly a consenting act, as rape.

Not certain the cheap shot was a good way to prove your point, either.

But - yeah, she was consenting.

And, if the way things worked in the book the way we do things now...what the hell would be the point of reading it?

[corbon]

Do I dislike Dany as a person? By the latest chapters published, yes. Call it her sense of divine right, if you want. It's never occured to her, truly, if she deserves to rule, or if her family did. She just assumes, because they did, she does. She ignores that the Targ's were invaders.

Umm, hello? :stunned: This is feudalism! It never occurred to Tywin if he was meant to rule the Westlands, or Ned the North, or Jon Arryn the Vale, or... almost any hereditary ruler in the books, basically.

Assuming she should (rule Westeros) because they (her family, of which she is the only/senior surviving member) did is how her society works. If she failed to assume this, it would need a ridiculous suspension of disbelief by the readers.

And the Targs invaded 300 years ago.

If 300 years isn't long enough to 'own' or 'run' a country legitimately then the United States should really be given back to the Indians - because 300 years ago that is who it belonged to. The whole 'constitution' and 'republic' and 'democracy' thing is something imposed on it by invaders within a more recent time span than the Targ conquest of Westeros! :fencing:

She's out to overthrow cultures simply because they oppose or offend her (cause, you know, the Dothraki are SUCH good people), she becomes ruler of teh City more out of a lack of momentum than any other reason.

I don't know about 'overthrow a culture', let alone 'overthrow cultures'.

'End an evil institution' and 'punish those responsible for heinous crimes' perhaps. Otherwise she pretty much left things alone - with disastrous consequences as she is coming to realise.

Plus, here she has Barristan, and she has YET to seem to ask for a little update on the last 15 years of Westeros.

Really? Like how much time has passed since she first realised that all was not sweetness and light in the Targ past. In the mean time she has been extremely busy.

She knows Barristan has information, she's guessed it will change her view of her family history and she has to take some time to ready herself for that. She said as much.

How much time has she had since then? I'm not sure we know.

Sigh - what I really hate, is the "blood of the dragon" crap. Not her belief in her House, her excuse for being a bitch. She gets angry, she snaps, and "DON'T WAKE THE DRAGON!". She's a bit of a bully. Makes me want, in a fanfic-ish way, to interupt her next time she pulls that and say "Yo, bitch, you like it when Visyrs said that and gave you purple-nurples?".

Barristan the Bold? Dany needs a 3 week course in Signy Mallory's Advanced Leadership Bootcamp.

bonus points for knowing who Mallory is.

:rolleyes:

It is an autocracy. All Autocrats are bullies some of the time. Especially young ones learning their trade...

[reiver]

However, she was raped by him several times between these two times, in that she screamed and cried in pain, and asked him to stop because it hurt so much.

She never asked him to stop which was, i thought, a very important part of her character. She was in pain, miserable and clearly not enjoying the experience but she never once did less than her duty.

"Drogo would come to her tent and wake her in the dark, to ride her as relentlessly as he rode his stallion. He always took her from behind, Dothraki fashion, for which Dany was grateful; that way her lord husband could not see the tears that wet her face, and she could use her pillow to muffle her cries of pain."

It's clearly not enjoyable sex and it's portrayed as something done to her and not done with her which does prick upon my modern sensibilities. That said she does appear to be consenting to the treatment.

[Bronn is God]

Every Dany thread the Queensguard step up and defend their righteous Mother of Dragons.

Can we not have 1 thread where we can bitch about Dany? You dont see me jumping on every "Walder Frey should die" thread and defending him.

Leave it be Queensguard. Please.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Tyrion does not really qualify as a Gary Stu, even if he is one of GRRM's favorites.

Agreed. While Tyrion and Sam Tarly are quasi-Author Avatars, Jon Snow is the most clear-cut Gary Stu.

[iamthedave]

Dany was not raped by Drogo on her wedding night in the book. She was also not raped by him when she was on top in the time you mentioned.

However, she was raped by him several times between these two times, in that she screamed and cried in pain, and asked him to stop because it hurt so much.

A woman can enjoy having sex with her husband one day, and be raped by him the next day. This is not hypocracy in any way, and if you don't realize this I pity anyone in a relationship with you.

Which skips my point entirely.

Where is the psychological damage? Where is the Dany who is mentally scarred and broken by her horrific experiences with Drogo?

People use the fact Dany was raped as some sort of defense, it's ALWAYS brought up as something terrible that happened to her and for which we should feel sorry for her. Yet it has no impact on the character.

Perhaps you could address that little point instead of taking a personal dig at me, hmm?

[Mandurang]

Agreed. While Tyrion and Sam Tarly are quasi-Author Avatars, Jon Snow is the most clear-cut Gary Stu.

Just to be clear, I do not think anyone in the series qualifies for this sort of thing.

[Noroldis]

Every Dany thread the Queensguard step up and defend their righteous Mother of Dragons.

Can we not have 1 thread where we can bitch about Dany? You dont see me jumping on every "Walder Frey should die" thread and defending him.

Leave it be Queensguard. Please.

If someone created a thread to bitch about Bronn, would you leave it be?

[nevermore]

If someone created a thread to bitch about Bronn, would you leave it be?

:owned:

but seriously, it's not that we go against you guys for bitching, just the reasons you guys put forward don't correlate with me at all. If you said you hated her because she has the only 3 dragons in the world or you hate dragons, I would be cool with it because that's just difference of opinion. but I disagree with certain things you perceive differently to me.

[Nukelavee]

Corbon, either you aren't reading deep enough into what i said, or I'm being too simple/shallow. (heh - not a flame, just saying clearly we have a failure to communicate).

I guess, in regards to the first point, what I'm trying to say is that Dany never questions that the throne WILL be hers. She ignores (or hasn't realized) just how much fighting (with swords, and words) is required to take a throne, and hold it. I think it's kind of interesting that, having encountered so many examples of ancient power structures (or not ancient, like Drogo) being overturned or ground down since her wedding, she still seems to plan according to fitting things to her will, rather than by learning to use what is in front of her.

About the invader part...You Americans have short memories, 300 years is nothing. :) With that, I'm more refering to Westeros, and it's great Houses, and thier sense of the past. It's clear to us that the seven "kingdoms" was more an empire than a kingdom, and it's member "states" still wish to be "free". So, again, has Dany ever considered just how big a war she faces, and for how long?.

That leads to Barristan and the Westeros update. If the Iron throne is the goal, she can never, ever, be too busy to learn about Westeros and it's politics. She knows nothing, is aware she knows nothing,but is playing around trying to reform a culture halfway around the world from her goal - she's wasting time.

And, yeah, she is overthrowing cultures - that evil institution IS the foundation of that culture, that's why she's having such issues with Mereen.

Bully? I agree with your point, but...she's spent her life bullied. And she's indulging, at times, in similar behviour. My experience is that, when someone is a victim for a long time, get power, and then displays some of the attributes of teh victimizer...not good.

Plus, I'm just not a huge fan of her template, male or female. Not because she's female and gonna rule, but because i don't like characters who never doubt the universe is designed for them to run it, that nobody else is suitable.

Signy Mallory, ftr, Captain of the "Norway", from Downbelow Station, etc...incredibly strong female character, Lady,ruler of the Empire in the Black Company, again, INSANELY powerful and strong female ruler (just to point out it's not a gender thing)... neither one is nice (i think if you rolled all the vile acts together in this series, you wouldn't begin to achieve some of the nastiness Lady has indulged in), but niether pretends, at the end, to be anything but the sole power in the land. Dany, i guess, seems to think she can hit westeros, take over, and people will love their queen.

plus, meh, I don't like her much. Which isn't the same thing as her being my hated character, or being a badly written character. I mean, clever and entertaining as Tyrion is...he's still a little turd and over-confident, and not somebody I "like".

[Horza]

Neither Dany or Jon are Sues, but they are pretty heavily plot armoured and to my mind it does make them flatter, less interesting and less believable characters. Particularly compared with characters like Sansa, Arya or Tyrion it is fairly telling how little they appear to have been affected by the events they've been involved in.

[iamthedave]

I do not in any way believe that Dany is fit to rule Westeros, or a thing she learns from Myreen will help in ruling Westeros.

It's peoples are completely different, the culture, the history... it doesn't work. She's got the nerve and the strength of will out of her time as Drogo's wife, but the rest? She's just going to put people's backs up and incite another rebellion.

HOWEVER

That, I'm sure, is where Tyrion is meant to come in. Illyrio is a very clever fella. He has to know she's not going to fulfill her role in his plans right now, and is sending Tyrion to help get her on track.

Plus the Martell's will help a lot with rule.

[nevermore]

Corbon, either you aren't reading deep enough into what i said, or I'm being too simple/shallow. (heh - not a flame, just saying clearly we have a failure to communicate).

I guess, in regards to the first point, what I'm trying to say is that Dany never questions that the throne WILL be hers. She ignores (or hasn't realized) just how much fighting (with swords, and words) is required to take a throne, and hold it. I think it's kind of interesting that, having encountered so many examples of ancient power structures (or not ancient, like Drogo) being overturned or ground down since her wedding, she still seems to plan according to fitting things to her will, rather than by learning to use what is in front of her.

About the invader part...You Americans have short memories, 300 years is nothing. :) With that, I'm more refering to Westeros, and it's great Houses, and thier sense of the past. It's clear to us that the seven "kingdoms" was more an empire than a kingdom, and it's member "states" still wish to be "free". So, again, has Dany ever considered just how big a war she faces, and for how long?.

That leads to Barristan and the Westeros update. If the Iron throne is the goal, she can never, ever, be too busy to learn about Westeros and it's politics. She knows nothing, is aware she knows nothing,but is playing around trying to reform a culture halfway around the world from her goal - she's wasting time.

And, yeah, she is overthrowing cultures - that evil institution IS the foundation of that culture, that's why she's having such issues with Mereen.

Bully? I agree with your point, but...she's spent her life bullied. And she's indulging, at times, in similar behviour. My experience is that, when someone is a victim for a long time, get power, and then displays some of the attributes of teh victimizer...not good.

Plus, I'm just not a huge fan of her template, male or female. Not because she's female and gonna rule, but because i don't like characters who never doubt the universe is designed for them to run it, that nobody else is suitable.

Signy Mallory, ftr, Captain of the "Norway", from Downbelow Station, etc...incredibly strong female character, Lady,ruler of the Empire in the Black Company, again, INSANELY powerful and strong female ruler (just to point out it's not a gender thing)... neither one is nice (i think if you rolled all the vile acts together in this series, you wouldn't begin to achieve some of the nastiness Lady has indulged in), but niether pretends, at the end, to be anything but the sole power in the land. Dany, i guess, seems to think she can hit westeros, take over, and people will love their queen.

plus, meh, I don't like her much. Which isn't the same thing as her being my hated character, or being a badly written character. I mean, clever and entertaining as Tyrion is...he's still a little turd and over-confident, and not somebody I "like".

Her confidence comes from the dragons, Aegon did it easily, why not her? And bullying? she isn't bullying anyone, she should have killed Jorah (I would have) she hasn't abused her power and Viserys would have been plenty worse with it. Anyway every character in power is doing everything to get more power, look at Jon and his treatment of Gilly. The only problem i have is one you have is well, she is bloody wasting her time >.< if westeros is her goal, go to westeros not freeing up some stupid slave cities. I actually don't like her idealism, wish she was more of a cynic.