[BOOK SPOILERS] Ep 09 Discussion Part 2

[Bronn_ManofHonour]

Woa, everyone!

Shae looked very exotic and appealing in my view, totally unlike Ros-type whores that Tyrion would be used to. She is a whore, as she first approaches Tyrion after she's agreed to the terms of contract, and her eyes glinted at the "gold you couldn't spend if you lived a thousand years" mention.

The "Never did I ever" game was very poignant evidence of Tyrion's issues and need for companionship he feels he can't get anywhere. Bronn's reaction to the statement "look how much fun we're having" was telling everything we needed to know. Making Shae mysterious and insolent added fun and gave Tyrion a reason to keep her around, and us to wonder who she might be. On the other hand, Bronn and Shae always gave me the impression that they do start liking Tyrion, although it's his gold that keeps them about, and they don't sacrifice their lives for him... it's kinda similar to liking your boss at work, socializing with him, but still not investing in his company when it's about to dissolve (Bronn) and looking for another boss (Shae). For Tyrion, it was a deep betrayal by both, but for them, it made sense as a career choice.

PS1. Newbie boyfriend's theory: Ned's going to turn up at the wall, with or without his head. Joffrey's not long for this world. That sword is not done talking.

PS2. Newbie colleague turned up at work yesterday with the first book, and says he can't stop reading it. One more convert yay!

His story about Tysha setup both Shae and Bronn betrayals of Tyrion, although deep down inside all three's leaving of Tyrion is about his father despising him (which seems to have lived on in Cersei). One of the things Tyrion hates to realize is that his father NEVER let him have endeavors of his own and instead kept him on a rich allowance. This really stops Tyrion from ever having any independence from Tywin. Tyrion's speech to Bronn in Episode 8, about no one ever being able to outbid him for his services (friendship) sets up what comes so beautifully. Nobody outbids a Lannister... except another Lannister.

However what Bronn does with the settlement Cersei gives him is truly, truly bizarre... could Bronn be working for Tyrion secretly still?

[legba11]

But they didn't even EXPLAIN anything. They didn't explain how Robb's force of 18000 men defeated Jaime's force of 30000. At all. Everyone I was watching with (non-readers all) were very confused here when they just show up dragging Jaime.. wondering WTF happened.

Why couldn't they have just added a few lines explaining how Jaime's forces were split up to besiege Riverrun, and Robb took them completely by surprise? Instead it just came across as Deus ex Machina... victory without effort.

I am hoping the battle is described in more detail next episode... Tywin hearing of the events would be a good opportunity.

I don't think that has happened yet, Jaime was captured in a fairly small skirmish, I think Robb breaks his seige later.

I don't see Bronn as ever betraying Tyrion, he doesn't even outright say no to fighting the Mountain for him (though it's unlikely he would). Am I forgetting something?

[Aganerral]

One possible note about not having ToJ this season - that leaves an opening to have Sean Bean come back in a future season as a guest spot for lots of fun promotional purposes :)

[Steel_Wind]

So I finally talked today with a non-reader friend of mine who has been a passionate fan of the TV series. He got the chance to watch Ep 9 last night.

He had this look in his eye the moment I saw him. "So I watched it..." All he could say about Ned was "wow".

Him: "Is he really dead? Is that it for Ned? He lost his head?"

Me: "Dead. Completely dead. 100% DEAD."

Him: "How can you kill the main character? Wow. Those guys....just... wow."

Me: "Because he wasn't the main character", I replied. "You just thought he was". He took that all in stride and rolled with it.

He is certainly sucking up the GRRM vibe now, and while I can tell he's rooting for Drogo, I can also tell that he is waking up to the fact that GRRM is ruthless and Drogo isn't likely to make it. In fact, he already has reached the conclusion that Dany's baby is ALSO in a lot of trouble for being brought into that tent.

But THOSE are not the comments he had that I wanted to post here. The comments that worried me were in relation to the capture of Jaime. He was totally confused: "What the hell happened? I don't understand."

So I explained it to him, as I often do. His response?

Him: "How the hell are you supposed to figure out this show if you haven't read the book?? You tell me afterwards and I can deal with it -- but what do you do if you don't have some friend in the know? Those-battles-that-weren't. Man. How the fuck are we supposed to figure all that out on our own?"

To D&D: the man has a point.

[Samalander]

I'm pretty sure they will show us Mirri Maz Duur's desire for vengeance. She poisoned Drogo and killed Rhaego with her spell, that's the whole point of her character. She would not end up on the pyre, if this were just two accidents ;-).

She poisoned Drogo? Really? Where is this coming from? I understood from the novels he was too arrogant to comply with her directions and got himself screwed.

[Bahimiron]

She poisoned Drogo? Really? Where is this coming from? I understood from the novels he was too arrogant to comply with her directions and got himself screwed.

It's possible that in this thread about an episode of the TV show in this area dedicated to season one of the TV show of the TV show subforum that he could very well be talking about the motivations of the character as depicted on the TV show.

[mcb]

I think people are jumping to conclusions to soon about Season 2. I mean, GRRM is writing an episode called BLACKWATER, so I'm pretty sure it's not going to be cut out.

Like someone else said, I'd rather have them skip things then make them and have them suck. And I think people are greatly underestimating how much battle scenes actually cost.

Yes, an epic battle would cost epic. Even quantum, maybe (if you read "Pyramids"). However, a minute of Robb's war council explaining to the viewers the whole "divide the host and give them two battles" idea wouldn't cost more than Tyrion's drinking game. To give us just the bottom line, "Jaime gets caught", is simply bad storytelling.

[Ser Warpechowski]

His story about Tysha setup both Shae and Bronn betrayals of Tyrion, although deep down inside all three's leaving of Tyrion is about his father despising him (which seems to have lived on in Cersei). One of the things Tyrion hates to realize is that his father NEVER let him have endeavors of his own and instead kept him on a rich allowance. This really stops Tyrion from ever having any independence from Tywin. Tyrion's speech to Bronn in Episode 8, about no one ever being able to outbid him for his services (friendship) sets up what comes so beautifully. Nobody outbids a Lannister... except another Lannister.

However what Bronn does with the settlement Cersei gives him is truly, truly bizarre... could Bronn be working for Tyrion secretly still?

I dont think Bronn really betrayed Tyrion. He was a sword for hire and said so many times, and always had a price for his services. Even so I think he liked and respected Tyrion, but being a survivor he wasnt willing tio risk everything he had earned fighting Gregor.

[Ser Warpechowski]

She poisoned Drogo? Really? Where is this coming from? I understood from the novels he was too arrogant to comply with her directions and got himself screwed.

Well, the POV system deal is that our perception is the character perception, in this case young, inocent and ignorant about medicine Dany. I realy think Mirr wanted to help Drogo, but I think it all changed when she realized Drogo was not just any Khan but one of the biggest and that his son would be the stallion who would mount the world.

[GoTreviews]

She poisoned Drogo? Really? Where is this coming from? I understood from the novels he was too arrogant to comply with her directions and got himself screwed.

It's mostly coming from MMD final's reactions to Dany. "you knew" > "the stallion who mounts the world will burn no cities now" pretty much claims that she wasn't trying to help Drogo at any point.

The show really support that theory, since, unlike in the books were Drogo rip his bandage off, he keeps him till the end (well, till Jorah removes it at least). They're trying to make the "MMD did it!" understanding of this story arc as the obvious choice.

I might be biased however: I don't think I ever believed her to be ready to help Drogo at any point in the books.

[legba11]

Second watch:

So this week's theme was how your actions affect not just you but your loved ones.

We open with Ned's honor being worth more than his life (and apparantly the thousands of lives which will be lost in war). However Varys (you bastage! you took the only thing he had left!!) has him weigh his honor against the lives of Robb, Sansa and Arya.

Then we see how Jorah's crimes have devastated his father. (Do we know why Mormont is on the Wall?)

Catelyn has her father and brother's shoddy treatment of their most powerful bannerman thrown in her face. (I realize the man is a creep and a lech, but he is still your strongest bannerman)

Then Aemon spells it our directly in why the Black Brothers take no wives and father no children. And then you see how the Mad King's insanity led to the death of all his family.

Khal pays the price twice for Dany's actions. His wound and loss of respect was caused by her refusal to follow the rules of Dothraki pillage, and then she brings the witch into it.

Jaime pays the price of Tywin's failure (and his own, but that's not in keeping with the theme). Tywin blames the scouts, but let's face it when your intelligence overstates the WMD's... err troops by 10 fold you look at the top of the pyramid for answers.

[Tywin's bastard]

Well, the POV system deal is that our perception is the character perception, in this case young, inocent and ignorant about medicine Dany. I realy think Mirr wanted to help Drogo, but I think it all changed when she realized Drogo was not just any Khan but one of the biggest and that his son would be the stallion who would mount the world.

In my opinion it's not obvious what Mirri does with Drogo's wound in the book but when she talks about that Dany didn't save her because life after everything is taken away is worthless, then it doesn't make any sense that she would ever want to help Drogo. Neither out of compassion, nor out of fear, because she hates the Dothraki and what they do to other people and she already sees herself as dead so she has nothing to fear.

I don't think the whole thing with Drogo actually dying from battle with another Kahl (which is the case if you think Mirri helped him) is nearly as intriguing as a story as Dany alone creating the doom for Drogo and the khalesaar through her imagined compassion towards Mirri.

[BlackTalon]

I must say I was confused by this in the books, too. Drogo dies because he disregards MMDs warnings as has beeen mentioned before and what happens when Jorah carries Dany into the tent, again that´s because he disregards MMDs very clear explicit orders (even though he didn´t hear them, admittedly)

Yet GRRM later makes it somehow sound like she planned and orchestrated everything, like when she tells Dany sth along the lines of "your son won´t mount the world now, will he???"

I think that´s one of the logical flaws in the book, just like Sansa´s so-called betrayal, when it actually mattered a damn what she told Cersei of her father´s plans to send them away. After Ned´s "mercy" cersei would have acted before Roberts returned to the city in any case.

(edited bc of unintentional spoilers)

[TheEvilKing]

I dont think Bronn really betrayed Tyrion. He was a sword for hire and said so many times, and always had a price for his services. Even so I think he liked and respected Tyrion, but being a survivor he wasnt willing tio risk everything he had earned fighting Gregor.

Yeah, the post you are responding to made no sense. Yet the dude has "Bronn" in his username.

At what point does he betray Tyrion? If you're referring to him not fighting the Mountain, then no.

[Cyclone49]

Wow. What an episode. I knew exactly what was coming but that was still one of the most tense hours of television I've ever watched - I had chills leading up to the final scene. Really liked the addition of Ned noticing Arya and pointing her out to Yoren, that was a really heart wrenching touch.

Was slightly disappointed at the battles being completely cut out, but I can understand why it was done. It does cause a little concern for later seasons however, unless they really up the budget. The casting for Shae is interesting - certainly quite different from the book version, but a compelling take on the character all the same. Glad the Tysha story finally got included, was a little worried when it wasn't in previous episodes.

Walder Frey is suitably repulsive too. I like how the Freys basically seem to be being portrayed as the jokes of Westeros; even the interior of the Twins looks like a shithole compared to the other castles seen so far. And I love their ridiculous headgear!

[Bronn Stone]

[*]Groundskeeper Filch has apparently graduated from Hogwarts to a much higher position at the Twins. ;)

Not only that, he's married a fifth-year student. Not much to her in terms of assertiveness or insight. Probably a Hufflepuff.

[Starchaser]

Then we see how Jorah's crimes have devastated his father. (Do we know why Mormont is on the Wall?)

Jorah said his father joined the Night's Watch so Jorah could be Lord of Bear Island. Yeah, adds to the devastation even more >_>

[aimlessgun]

But THOSE are not the comments he had that I wanted to post here. The comments that worried me were in relation to the capture of Jaime. He was totally confused: "What the hell happened? I don't understand."

So I explained it to him, as I often do. His response?

Him: "How the hell are you supposed to figure out this show if you haven't read the book?? You tell me afterwards and I can deal with it -- but what do you do if you don't have some friend in the know? Those-battles-that-weren't. Man. How the fuck are we supposed to figure all that out on our own?"

To D&D: the man has a point.

Funny, I had the exact same conversation. It was kind of a lot of fun describing Whispering Wood though. "Yeah man, direwolf fucked shit up and Jaime was a beast" etc.

He actually guessed Ned would die around episode 4, and asked me if there was a timeskip because the kids were obviously the main characters, so that wasn't a problem.

[Carldog]

About Ned getting killed:

When I first read the book several years ago, I got about 500 pages in then told a friend about this kickass book I was reading. My buddy gets a copy, blows through it then says "dude Ned dies!" he new I was not done. We are no longer friends.

Anyway, that scene was done well in the show.

[legba11]

Jorah said his father joined the Night's Watch so Jorah could be Lord of Bear Island. Yeah, adds to the devastation even more >_>

Thank you! Which book is that in? I need to go find it.