[ADwD Spoilers] What Bran Sees

[Eggplant Wizard]

I think people get carried away with the "let them grow as close as brothers" thing. No matter what even if Jon is Ned's son, Jon and Robb aren't actually brothers - they are half-brothers, something which makes a world of difference in Westeros.

[MtnLion]

I think people get carried away with the "let them grow as close as brothers" thing. No matter what even if Jon is Ned's son, Jon and Robb aren't actually brothers - they are half-brothers, something which makes a world of difference in Westeros.

Heh, my half-brothers were always labeled as brothers, when I was growing up. Kind of a stretch, eh?

[Guest]

In a way, or maybe quite literally, the weirwood sap may be a mixture of tree sap and actual blood -- blood from those sacrificed at the trees. Not that it means much at this point, I suppose, but it could be a necessary ingredient for being able to look back into the past or skinchange into a weirwood.

I have a theory that the weirwood paste that Bran ate was fashioned after the rituals of peoples in the Amazon, who ate a plant called Ayahuasca as part of a religious ceremony in order to speak with the spirits of the forest and their dead ancestors. Bran is eating a psychotropic drug from Westeros that transports the person to another plane of reality.

And maybe there's some magic mixed in as well. ;)

[Spunkmeyer]

I think people get carried away with the "let them grow as close as brothers" thing. No matter what even if Jon is Ned's son, Jon and Robb aren't actually brothers - they are half-brothers, something which makes a world of difference in Westeros.

And even if they were full brothers biologically, you could still, as a parent, wish for them to grow up as close as brothers. Maybe Ned was thinking back on him and Robert growing up as close as brothers. Or that him and Brandon/Benjen didn't? And then just made a related remark on the boys in his mind.

OTOH, I don't think so. :)

[Black Crow]

Although not related to the specific visions discussed in the OP its worth correcting what seems to be a pretty widespread misreading of one of Bran’s earlier visions in AGoT.

In that vision Bran sees Jon lying “sleeping alone on a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard, as the memory of all warmth fled from him” and this has lately been taken to be a foreshadowing of Jon’s body lying frozen in or under the Wall after the assassination attempt – or his possible transformation into Coldhands2.

In fact its nothing of the sort. The vision is part of the one in which the Three-eyed Crow, or as we now know Bloodraven, shows Bran the world just before he wakes up. He starts off seeing everyone in the castle going about their lawful occasions, then looks beyond to see his father arguing with the King in the wake of Arya’s dust-up with Joffrey, and his mother sailing south to King’s Landing and into the path of a storm, before looking north to Jon and the Wall. Its not a prophecy at all but a real time vision by Bran and so far as Jon is concerned this is very explicitly confirmed in the Jon chapter immediately following where we learn that he’s sleeping in a tower alone and that “The chill was always with him here. In a few years he would forget what it felt like to be warm.”

Incidentally another part of the vision which seems to have been overlooked or forgotten iswhere he looks across the Jade Sea "...to Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise."

More dragons?

[The Oncoming Storm]

I hope we'll see a sacrifice before a heart tree in the present too. Maybe when the North finally rises and the give some Freys/Boltons to the trees... (Yeah, I'm sooo thirsty for Frey blood!)

[Calibandar]

In that vision Bran sees Jon lying “sleeping alone on a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard, as the memory of all warmth fled from him” and this has lately been taken to be a foreshadowing of Jon’s body lying frozen in or under the Wall after the assassination attempt – or his possible transformation into Coldhands2.

In fact its nothing of the sort. The vision is part of the one in which the Three-eyed Crow, or as we now know Bloodraven, shows Bran the world just before he wakes up. He starts off seeing everyone in the castle going about their lawful occasions, then looks beyond to see his father arguing with the King in the wake of Arya’s dust-up with Joffrey, and his mother sailing south to King’s Landing and into the path of a storm, before looking north to Jon and the Wall. Its not a prophecy at all but a real time vision by Bran and so far as Jon is concerned this is very explicitly confirmed in the Jon chapter immediately following where we learn that he’s sleeping in a tower alone and that “The chill was always with him here. In a few years he would forget what it felt like to be warm.”

I don't find this very convincing. It seems to me that in conjuction with Dany's vision of the blue rose growing from a chink at the bottom of a wall , Bran is seeing Jon lying beneath the wall. The memory of all warmth leaving him then seems to fit much better than your explanation. His skin actually growing pale and hard also fits much better in this scenario, than in yours. It also fits very well with the Jon assasination and his near-certain rise.

[Black Crow]

I don't find this very convincing. It seems to me that in conjuction with Dany's vision of the blue rose growing from a chink at the bottom of a wall , Bran is seeing Jon lying beneath the wall. The memory of all warmth leaving him then seems to fit much better than your explanation. His skin actually growing pale and hard also fits much better in this scenario, than in yours. It also fits very well with the Jon assasination and his near-certain rise.

No, you need to read that Bran chapter in AGoT. As I said everything in that vision is happening in real time:

"He could see the whole realm, and everyone in it.

He saw Winterfell as the eagles see it, the tall towers looking squat and stubby from above... he saw Maester Luwin on his balcony... he saw his brother Robb, taller and stronger than he remembered him, practicing swordplay in the yard with real steel in his hand. He saw Hodor, the simple giant from the stables, carrying an anvil to Mikken's forge...

He looked east, and saw a galley racing across the waters of the Bite. He saw his mother sitting alone in a cabin, looking at a blood-stained knife on a table in front of her as the rowers pulled at their oars and Ser Roderick leaned across a rail, shaking and heaving...

He looked south, and saw the great blue-green rush of the Trident. He saw his father pleading with the King, his face etched with grief...

He lifted his eyes and saw clear across the narrow sea... Finally, he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him."

Context is everything and here everything Bran sees is happening there and then so its seems quite illogical that what he sees happening to Jon and Jon alone is a prophecy, especially when in the Jon chapter immediately following we read that line about how "In a few years, he would forget what it felt like toi be warm", and then talking with Donal Noye he complains "...its cold.". "Yes. Cold and hard and mean, that's the Wall, and the men who walk it."

The blue rose has interesting possibilities, but this first vision of Brans is not a prophecy relating to the assassination attempt

[LordBloodraven]

I hope we'll see a sacrifice before a heart tree in the present too. Maybe when the North finally rises and the give some Freys/Boltons to the trees... (Yeah, I'm sooo thirsty for Frey blood!)

Let's hope it's Roose, heh

[GreatDave Umber]

This was one of my favorite scenes in the entire book, and I think agree on most of the claims of what they are. I'm really interested in the sacrifice as well. It has to be part of the bigger picture that we don't see yet.

[Geddus]

I hope we'll see a sacrifice before a heart tree in the present too. Maybe when the North finally rises and the give some Freys/Boltons to the trees... (Yeah, I'm sooo thirsty for Frey blood!)

I don't think the northerners (or the First Men, even) usually sacrifice people to the trees: I believe the human sacrifice is just required to create the heart tree, the one with the face. Bran's visions go further back in time, so it makes sense that the last thing he sees is the first thing the weirwood tree witnessed, which would be the sacrifice that gave it "eyes".

[hotweaselsoup]

Context is everything and here everything Bran sees is happening there and then so its seems quite illogical that what he sees happening to Jon and Jon alone is a prophecy, especially when in the Jon chapter immediately following we read that line about how "In a few years, he would forget what it felt like toi be warm", and then talking with Donal Noye he complains "...its cold.". "Yes. Cold and hard and mean, that's the Wall, and the men who walk it."

The blue rose has interesting possibilities, but this first vision of Brans is not a prophecy relating to the assassination attempt

Why can't it be both? Events that are currently unfolding, but also foreshadowing future things?

"He saw Maester Luwin on his balcony, studying the sky through a polished bronze tube and frowning as he made notes in a book." Happening now, but also foreshadowing the arrival of the red comet?

"He saw his brother Robb, taller and stronger than he remembered him, practicing swordplay in the yard with real steel in his hand." Again, occurring now, but a precursor image of things to come: Robb soon will lead an army, sword in hand.

"He saw Hodor, the simple giant from the stables, carrying an anvil to Mikken's forge, hefting it onto his shoulder as easily as another man might heft a bale of hay." Or heft a crippled boy onto his shoulder.

"...He saw his mother sitting alone in a cabin, looking at a bloodstained knife..." Now. "...A storm was gathering ahead of them, a vast dark roaring lashed by lightning, but somehow they could not see it." A literal storm, but also foreshadowing the "storm of swords" into which they sail.

"...He saw his father pleading with the king, his face etched with grief." Now he pleads with King Robert; later, he will plead with King Joffrey.

"He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night." Now she cries for Lady; later, she cries for her father, and for fear of lions.

"...and he saw Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart." This is as much Arya in Dance, as it is Arya in Game.

"There were shadows all around them. One shadow was dark as ash, with terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood." This part of the dream seems quite prophetic. Not only does it describe the current Hound and Jaime Lannister, but it also seems to prophesy the future Ser Robert Strong.

So, in summation, I think that

"...He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping along in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him."

...can refer to both Jon's current state, as well as to his future fate as a corpse in an ice cell beneath the wall.

It's one of the things I most love about Martin's writing: the layers upon layers of meaning. :)

[Brucolac]

Had a thought about the pregnant lady seeking revenge between Duncan kissing the girl and Lyanna fighting with Benjen visions. We know Aegon Targaryan is there with him and they always get into trouble wherever they go. Possibly Egg upsets Rickard's mother resulting in Rickard's southern ambitions and the power consolidation they would mean.

As for the dream he has when in a coma, most of it seems to have multiple layers as a vision. It is all a current event he is seeing but they also could apply to things that happen later.

[gonzoaster11]

Why can't it be both? Events that are currently unfolding, but also foreshadowing future things?

"He saw Maester Luwin on his balcony, studying the sky through a polished bronze tube and frowning as he made notes in a book." Happening now, but also foreshadowing the arrival of the red comet?

"He saw his brother Robb, taller and stronger than he remembered him, practicing swordplay in the yard with real steel in his hand." Again, occurring now, but a precursor image of things to come: Robb soon will lead an army, sword in hand.

"He saw Hodor, the simple giant from the stables, carrying an anvil to Mikken's forge, hefting it onto his shoulder as easily as another man might heft a bale of hay." Or heft a crippled boy onto his shoulder.

"...He saw his mother sitting alone in a cabin, looking at a bloodstained knife..." Now. "...A storm was gathering ahead of them, a vast dark roaring lashed by lightning, but somehow they could not see it." A literal storm, but also foreshadowing the "storm of swords" into which they sail.

"...He saw his father pleading with the king, his face etched with grief." Now he pleads with King Robert; later, he will plead with King Joffrey.

"He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night." Now she cries for Lady; later, she cries for her father, and for fear of lions.

"...and he saw Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart." This is as much Arya in Dance, as it is Arya in Game.

"There were shadows all around them. One shadow was dark as ash, with terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood." This part of the dream seems quite prophetic. Not only does it describe the current Hound and Jaime Lannister, but it also seems to prophesy the future Ser Robert Strong.

So, in summation, I think that

"...He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping along in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him."

...can refer to both Jon's current state, as well as to his future fate as a corpse in an ice cell beneath the wall.

It's one of the things I most love about Martin's writing: the layers upon layers of meaning. :)

Basically, what you've just done for all of us is show us that, after five novels, if not dead then nothing has changed.

[hotweaselsoup]

Basically, what you've just done for all of us is show us that, after five novels, if not dead then nothing has changed.

Pretty much.

[Net-Viper X]

"Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood."

The quote is pretty convincing as an Ungregor prophesy, but the "armor made of stone" thing has always kept me from embracing the prophecy theory 100%.

I always wondered if this reference could be to the Others, since they are the huge threat that looms over everything, they wear armor made of some form of crystal, and the mass of their strength is made up of zombies who's hands and feet are discolored by their thick black coagulated blood. The darkness could be reference to the evil nature of their power or the fact they seem to only be active at night.

I wish GRRM would kick it into overdrive and finish that next book so maybe we could find out.

[Ches Rockwell]

I have a theory about the pregnant woman. First I set up my timeline so bear with me. And sorry in advance for the long post!

If we except the vision after the pregnant woman to be Dunk, then we can assume the date to be around 214AL. Reasoning being, 2nd Blackfyre rebellion (ie. last Dunk and Egg novel) happened around 212AL, and lets assume the next novel is occurring soon after that, so I give 2 years for this event to happen in Winterfell (214AL).

And if we accept the girl fighting in the Weirwood groove to be Lyanna, and she is about Ayra's age at the time, the date is around 277AL. Reasoning being, she was born 267AL, and if she's 10ish, then its 277AL in the vision.

Therefore in between we have 60+ years to play with.

Pregnant Stark women at that time could be:

1. Mother of Brandon (born 261AL), Ned etc.: But don't think she would have a reason to want to be avenged, so rule her out.

2. Mother of Rickard Stark, was married to Edwyle Stark, we know nothing of her. But lets look at the date. Brandon was born 261AL, and lets say Rickard starting having kids in early 20's. Assuming this, Rickard was born approx 241AL. Even if we say he never started to have kids until 30, his birth would still be 231AL, and it still would fit to the timeframe, ie before 212AL (Dunk).

3. Mother of Edwyle Stark. We know almost nothing of Edwyle and nothing of his parents. Will go with my timeframe and say he was born 20 years before Rickard or so, woudl put his birth around 221AL, and it still fits to the timeframe ie. before 212AL (Dunk). So it could be her.

Now to put some fire on it. We heard, I think from Mance, the story of Bael the Bard. About a virgin daughter of a Stark LORD (ie. after they were kings), his only offspring, who was taken from him on some sneaky pretense. Bael fathered a bastard child on this girl who would then go on to become the next Lord Stark, and eventually kill his own father in a war against the King-Beyond-the-Wall. In Mance's version, the Stark girl was in love with Bael, and killed herself after knowing that her son killed Bael. But this seems too romantic for my liking, not the style of GRRM, so my guess is, that the story changed in the telling to make it more likable to the Wildlings, and the Stark girl that you see in the groove, is actually the same Stark girl who was raped by Bael and became pregnant in the process and is pretty pissed at what happened, therefore asking for avenging! And that she is the mother of Edwyle Stark. Edwyle then being the bastard of Bael the Bard. This also makes sense that then Rickard was an only child, as the son of Bael was said to have been killed not long after the war with the Wildlings in some conflict with the Boltons. Therefore he died before he could father any more children.

My last evidence in support of this is, it seems to me, that the Starks were marrying into pretty low-standing houses prior to the events of the books. As rulers of the North, you would expect them to marry into the houses of their powerful bannermen (Manderly, Karstark, Tallhart, etc), or other houses in the south to secure alliances. Instead you have the sister of Edwyle marrying into a Cadet branch of house Royce, and Rickard marrying into some daughter of a woman from the Flint clan. Is this something you would expect of the rulers of the North? The Starks who used to be Kings? Maybe it was because Edwyle was a bastard child of a Wildling, and might have also therefore had trouble securing a good marriage for his own son, Rickard. By the time of Brandon and co, this ancestry is more or less forgotten, and the Stark children are getting matches again more worthy of their station (ie Brandon with Cat Tully, Lyanna with Robert Baratheon, Ned being fostered in the Vale).

This could also help explain how the Stark children have strong warging powers, as this power somehow seems to run pretty strong in the wildlings, and therefore their wildling ancestor would only be 4 generations back.

Sorry again for the long post! :cool4:

[missandei]

^ This: I like very much. I hope you're right because it's pretty damn cool and a well thought out theory.

[Lord Stark]

Well thought out and I like the thought of it. Sadly I don't believe that can be the case, at least so far as the Boltons go. They bent the knee to the Starks 1000 years ago, and their only rebellion took place 300 years later, or 700 years before the books. So the Boltons couldn't have killed him, although the rest could take place, although it is believed that Bael was King Beyond the Wall 1000 years before the books, but can't remember I that is confirmed.

[Sand Flower in the Snow]

I have a theory about the pregnant woman. First I set up my timeline so bear with me. And sorry in advance for the long post!

If we except the vision after the pregnant woman to be Dunk, then we can assume the date to be around 214AL. Reasoning being, 2nd Blackfyre rebellion (ie. last Dunk and Egg novel) happened around 212AL, and lets assume the next novel is occurring soon after that, so I give 2 years for this event to happen in Winterfell (214AL).

And if we accept the girl fighting in the Weirwood groove to be Lyanna, and she is about Ayra's age at the time, the date is around 277AL. Reasoning being, she was born 267AL, and if she's 10ish, then its 277AL in the vision.

Therefore in between we have 60+ years to play with.

Pregnant Stark women at that time could be:

1. Mother of Brandon (born 261AL), Ned etc.: But don't think she would have a reason to want to be avenged, so rule her out.

2. Mother of Rickard Stark, was married to Edwyle Stark, we know nothing of her. But lets look at the date. Brandon was born 261AL, and lets say Rickard starting having kids in early 20's. Assuming this, Rickard was born approx 241AL. Even if we say he never started to have kids until 30, his birth would still be 231AL, and it still would fit to the timeframe, ie before 212AL (Dunk).

3. Mother of Edwyle Stark. We know almost nothing of Edwyle and nothing of his parents. Will go with my timeframe and say he was born 20 years before Rickard or so, woudl put his birth around 221AL, and it still fits to the timeframe ie. before 212AL (Dunk). So it could be her.

Now to put some fire on it. We heard, I think from Mance, the story of Bael the Bard. About a virgin daughter of a Stark LORD (ie. after they were kings), his only offspring, who was taken from him on some sneaky pretense. Bael fathered a bastard child on this girl who would then go on to become the next Lord Stark, and eventually kill his own father in a war against the King-Beyond-the-Wall. In Mance's version, the Stark girl was in love with Bael, and killed herself after knowing that her son killed Bael. But this seems too romantic for my liking, not the style of GRRM, so my guess is, that the story changed in the telling to make it more likable to the Wildlings, and the Stark girl that you see in the groove, is actually the same Stark girl who was raped by Bael and became pregnant in the process and is pretty pissed at what happened, therefore asking for avenging! And that she is the mother of Edwyle Stark. Edwyle then being the bastard of Bael the Bard. This also makes sense that then Rickard was an only child, as the son of Bael was said to have been killed not long after the war with the Wildlings in some conflict with the Boltons. Therefore he died before he could father any more children.

My last evidence in support of this is, it seems to me, that the Starks were marrying into pretty low-standing houses prior to the events of the books. As rulers of the North, you would expect them to marry into the houses of their powerful bannermen (Manderly, Karstark, Tallhart, etc), or other houses in the south to secure alliances. Instead you have the sister of Edwyle marrying into a Cadet branch of house Royce, and Rickard marrying into some daughter of a woman from the Flint clan. Is this something you would expect of the rulers of the North? The Starks who used to be Kings? Maybe it was because Edwyle was a bastard child of a Wildling, and might have also therefore had trouble securing a good marriage for his own son, Rickard. By the time of Brandon and co, this ancestry is more or less forgotten, and the Stark children are getting matches again more worthy of their station (ie Brandon with Cat Tully, Lyanna with Robert Baratheon, Ned being fostered in the Vale).

This could also help explain how the Stark children have strong warging powers, as this power somehow seems to run pretty strong in the wildlings, and therefore their wildling ancestor would only be 4 generations back.

Sorry again for the long post! :cool4:

I like this theory! I am very interested to hear what others think and to see if it actually comes out.