[ADwD Spoilers] What Bran Sees

[Bobbity]

Concerning the last vision - that of the first men - I think that the man being sacrificed was Bran the Builder. Assuming that Brandon was the Night's King - a longshot, I'll admit, but there are reasons for that assumption, which unfortunately I haven't covered here - then he is possibly being sacrificed to the old gods to account for his crimes.

I know that it's unlikely, but each and every one of the visions has had some relevance, so I don't see why this should be different. If it's not the Night's King/Brandon the Builder, then why is it in there? Will blood sacrifice come up as we progress further into the series?

But wait, go and read the last sentence of this chapter, which is on p460, in my edition. It goes as follows, " ... but as his life flowed out of him in a red tide, Brandon Stark could taste the blood."

Consider the unusual wording of that sentence, the fact that he is referred to as "Brandon", and not "Bran", and so on. It's a peculiar paragraph, but I'm reasonably convinced of the truth of my words. Anyone want to let me know what they think?

[jmcgarrahan]

I have been wondering why any visions at all? To what end is all of Brans story coming. Can he do anything about what he sees? Doesn't seem to me Bloodraven ever has. It feels to me like Bran is being taught to take over for Bloodraven. Why? He can worg and see past present and future but why? This has nagged at me since I started reading ADWD. If things can be changed or events halted before they began why has Bloodraven not ever done it?

[CrypticWeirwood]

Consider the unusual wording of that sentence, the fact that he is referred to as "Brandon", and not "Bran", and so on. It's a peculiar paragraph, but I'm reasonably convinced of the truth of my words. Anyone want to let me know what they think?

I think Martin referred to Ravenboy by his full name there to show him growing up a bit from little Bran.

[CrypticWeirwood]

I have been wondering why any visions at all? To what end is all of Brans story coming. Can he do anything about what he sees? Doesn't seem to me Bloodraven ever has. It feels to me like Bran is being taught to take over for Bloodraven. Why? He can worg and see past present and future but why? This has nagged at me since I started reading ADWD. If things can be changed or events halted before they began why has Bloodraven not ever done it?

We don’t know what Bloodraven has done. Maybe he has had some effect, beyond only on Bran’s dreams.

I find it interesting that Bloodraven seems to have been envisioned since the very beginning, and that he’s not some retcon.

[Kingslayer]

I don't think the northerners (or the First Men, even) usually sacrifice people to the trees: I believe the human sacrifice is just required to create the heart tree, the one with the face.

Nope. Davos' jailer tells him a story of northmen hanging slavers' entrails on the branches of a heart tree, as a simple offering to the gods. There's also Roose's hint of "only heart trees see half of what happens on Skagos." The present-day Starks turned from the old ways, but more and more, it's looking like the OG northmen were savage motherfuckers.

The Boltons probably sacrifice to their weirwood even today, as true First Men. crackpot theory: the old gods really did send that storm against Stannis' demon-worshippers, in thanks to the Boltons' steadfast support. "That's what you get for burning heart trees, asshole."

[Wouter]

The Boltons probably sacrifice to their weirwood even today, as true First Men. crackpot theory: the old gods really did send that storm against Stannis' demon-worshippers, in thanks to the Boltons' steadfast support. "That's what you get for burning heart trees, asshole."

Considering the "old gods" are in fact the "singers" and co in Bloodraven's "Treenet", it's obvious they wouldn't help Bolton. Bolton is a sworn enemy of their emerging champion, Bran, and Stannis is likely to make Rickon lord of Winterfell due to the Manderly-Davos agreement.

Unless they did send the storm to aid Stannis - slowing him down happened to make it possible to uncover uncle Karstark's treason in time.

[Tini]

I have been wondering why any visions at all? To what end is all of Brans story coming. Can he do anything about what he sees? Doesn't seem to me Bloodraven ever has. It feels to me like Bran is being taught to take over for Bloodraven. Why? He can worg and see past present and future but why? This has nagged at me since I started reading ADWD. If things can be changed or events halted before they began why has Bloodraven not ever done it?

Maybe Bloodraven did not change events because the time was not right, maybe he contributed his part of change by refusing death, waiting for Bran.

I think Bran's story is about giving us background information about events long past, like the building of the Wall. We have no real information on what led to these events, only tales distorted by countless retelling. I think we/the characters will need this information to understand about sinister R'hllor and the Other(s), and the problems at the Wall. Change would then be wrought by distributing this knowledge, not by direct interference with events.

Information about present events is power, too, and especially important in times of war - see Ramsay's letter. Visions are too vague, and come from suspect sources. If Bran learns how to control his abilities, he can find out what is going on everywhere in Westeros. Just think about the possibilities if he learns to speak through ravens.

[CrypticWeirwood]

Just think about the possibilities if he learns to speak through ravens.

Yes, quite. That’s what the Children of the Forest did. To send messages, the ravens actually spoke the message to the receiving party. They didn’t use little tiny scraps of paper the way the maesters do. Also, isn’t there some mention of all ravens having shreds of the Children in them now?

Even Hodor could be Bran’s mouthpiece if need be. Bran just hasn’t said but Hodor when “wearing” him so far because it’s been secret.

We need to see some better long-term solution to Bran and Hodor than being stuck north of the wall during winter with a bunch of everfrozen wight guards sleeping in the snow to catch them should they ever reappear. You also wonder what Coldhands has been doing all these months (how long has it been??) that Bran’s been in training.

[Black Crow]

Why can't it be both? Events that are currently unfolding, but also foreshadowing future things...

... in summation, I think that

"...He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him."

...can refer to both Jon's current state, as well as to his future fate as a corpse in an ice cell beneath the wall.

It's one of the things I most love about Martin's writing: the layers upon layers of meaning. :)

Still not convinced on this one. The events Bran are seeing are unambiguously taking place in what was then the present day. He could see the storm ahead of his mother only because it was already there and she was sailing into its path, while the King his father was pleading with could only be Robert as he would have been surprised to see Joffrey who couldn’t have been more unlike Robert if he had blue skin and pink polka dots. That being said there is certainly a layer of foreshadowing, but its of character rather than events; its Arya’s hiding everything and Jon’s becoming as cold and hard in character as he realises he will would do in the following chapter - and as we’ve seen before the assassination attempt, rather than lying stark after it.

[Geddus]

Nope. Davos' jailer tells him a story of northmen hanging slavers' entrails on the branches of a heart tree, as a simple offering to the gods. There's also Roose's hint of "only heart trees see half of what happens on Skagos." The present-day Starks turned from the old ways, but more and more, it's looking like the OG northmen were savage motherfuckers.

But hanging entrails, while gruesome, is certainly different than sacrificing someone, and I think Roose's sentence means just what it sounds like, which is "God only knows".

I agree on the savage motherfuckers part, I just think that the human sacrifice is what activates the weirwood tree, so to speak.

[The Mother of The Others]

Once Bran gets all the history, he may act in a different way than we'd currently expect him to. Also, Bran may break the rules that BloodRaven was playing by. Get more involved.

[MtnLion]

The storm is allowing the kettle in Winterfell to reach boil, too. Remember all of the northmen know that Liddle saw Bran going north to the Wall.

[jmcgarrahan]

Once Bran gets all the history, he may act in a different way than we'd currently expect him to. Also, Bran may break the rules that BloodRaven was playing by. Get more involved.

I really hope so. But if his whole story line is informational thats fine as well. I was just getting the feeling since Bloodraven had been what he is for quite a long time, he seemed to have no purpose other than a keeper of history. Which is good for us readers as we get quite alot of information about the past from Bran's visions we would not have gotten otherwise I think.

[Weirwood hugger]

Unless they did send the storm to aid Stannis - slowing him down happened to make it possible to uncover uncle Karstark's treason in time.

Woah, now that's a good conspiracy theory. Old gods and R'hllor teaming up to save Stannis Baratheon. I can image the trees high fiving AA right now.

[Wouter]

Woah, now that's a good conspiracy theory. Old gods and R'hllor teaming up to save Stannis Baratheon. I can image the trees high fiving AA right now.

Well, I don't think R'hllor exists at all. I could see Melisandre (who does have real power, from being a sorceress) teaming up with the "old gods" eventually though, even if merely by accident and without Melisandre ever realising it.

[iamthedave]

Woah, now that's a good conspiracy theory. Old gods and R'hllor teaming up to save Stannis Baratheon. I can image the trees high fiving AA right now.

The Old Gods are never going to team up with a god whose followers are specifically attempting to purge them from existence. Unless they're seriously stupid. In divine terms, R'hllor's about as loveable as the Freys.

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

If's bran's just going to be a info dump(would be kinda dissapointing, but still good) Hopefully we can somehow find a glimpse of Rhaegar and Lyanna, since there's a gods wood in KL.

[Wouter]

Bran will do much more than be an infodump, I'm sure (allthough he may act like an infodump at times now). He is likely going to start "talking" (by vision, "treenet", raven, whatever) to his siblings I think, and his superwarg powers are going to come into play as well.

Bran was actually the original POV for the very first chapter Martin wrote, before he even had thought out exactly what he was starting to write. He is likely to be very important by the end.

[The Mother of The Others]

Mel's help is so close to what they need that I'm hesitant to call her the devil, you know, but I think she's ultimately greedy (hoping to steal the spotlight from the old gods and win glory for her own kind). So she'll probably get in the way of the Wall doing it's thing properly before the end. Foul it up somehow.

[gonzoaster11]

If's bran's just going to be a info dump(would be kinda dissapointing, but still good) Hopefully we can somehow find a glimpse of Rhaegar and Lyanna, since there's a gods wood in KL.

R+L were never at KL. Remember Brandon went there and called out Rhaegar, but he wasn't there, and Aerys then had him arrested. It would actually be at Harrenhall since it was that tournament where they fell in love (if they fell in love). And if I remember correctly, there is gigantic godswood at Harrenhall.