[ADwD Spoilers] Quaithe's Prophecy

[Debtpayer]

It's bugging me that the sun's sun is mostly associated with Quentyn, because of his house sigil, while the sun is only part of that sigil. A more obvious translation of "the sun's son" for me would be a flower, or a tree. So the Knight of Flowers or Brandon Stark come to mind (though both aren't really in any position in the story to join up with Dany). Somehow, my bet is on Loras, though.

[random girl from westeros]

I don`t know if this has been post before, and please correct me if i`m but perhaps the true dragons in the Targaryen are the women, they never marry women outside their own house to keep the the bloodline pure, this is why only dany could wake the dragons and not burn while doing it, the men hav power over the dragons because the bloodline, but only the women can bind or hatch dragons eggs. I don`t know but if he look all the targ men have fail to hatch dragon and since only a women can be a mother. Please don`t hate me

[The Crow's Third Eye]

It's bugging me that the sun's sun is mostly associated with Quentyn, because of his house sigil, while the sun is only part of that sigil. A more obvious translation of "the sun's son" for me would be a flower, or a tree. So the Knight of Flowers or Brandon Stark come to mind (though both aren't really in any position in the story to join up with Dany). Somehow, my bet is on Loras, though.

Genuinely curious, not criticising; how does Brandon Stark = tree/flower? Do you mean POV Bran or Brandon who is our Bran's deceased uncle? I get the link to first Bran so is that who you mean?

However I am of the mind that sun's son is still Quentyn. Sorry, nice ideas though :)

Also, does anyone have the quote to hand? The reason I want to know is because if it is "mummers' dragon" then I imagine it to mean the dragon belonging to the mummer (Varys) while "mummers dragon" suggests fake Aegon (or possibly Aegon who's venture is a mummers farce ;) g

[alienarea]

I don`t know if this has been post before, and please correct me if i`m but perhaps the true dragons in the Targaryen are the women, they never marry women outside their own house to keep the the bloodline pure, this is why only dany could wake the dragons and not burn while doing it, the men hav power over the dragons because the bloodline, but only the women can bind or hatch dragons eggs. I don`t know but if he look all the targ men have fail to hatch dragon and since only a women can be a mother. Please don`t hate me

That makes sense.

It will be ignored.

[Miriel]

Maybe the perfumed seneschal is the seneschal at the Citadel-we have not seen him yet to see if he is perfumed but certainly the Citadel is not well intentioned towards dragons.

Why did the Undying want to kill Dany anyway? I never understood that.

[The Crow's Third Eye]

Maybe the perfumed seneschal is the seneschal at the Citadel-we have not seen him yet to see if he is perfumed but certainly the Citadel is not well intentioned towards dragons.

Why did the Undying want to kill Dany anyway? I never understood that.

Good question, with a number of possible answers.

If you see them as Maester's with magic, then they want her dragons to die and without her to look after them it's going to be slightly easier.

Another idea is that they need life to maintain their own existence. As we know, only death can pay for life, so the extended lives of the Undying may be attributed to the sacrifice of various people.

The Warlocks of Quarth could desire Dany's dragons for themselves? The pyromancer in KL specifically asks Tyrion if there are any Dragons because their spells are working better. Dragons clearly equals a return of magic, so a magical group such as the Warlocks under the Undying would want her dragons under their control.

Other ideas are also possible of course.

As a side note to the warlocks; I thought Pyat Pree was killed by Jorah and one of Dany's blood riders? Elsewhere on this forum I seem to recall reading he is I. WoW. Did I just not pay attention to the book properly?

And if he did survive, he is killed off in the TV series which complicates things for them... just saying

[Mrs.Grumpy]

I think Quaithe saw them coming (Aegon and JonCon changed their mind, so she was talking about the current time) thanks to her glass candle and told to Dany that they all are traitors. Kind of a self-fullfilling prophecy. Dany doesn't trust none of her visitors and they turn their back to her...

Well done Quaithe, well done.

[ejhawman]

It looks to me like an indicator of how prophecy works in ASOIF. Magical people see things based on their magical sensitivity to distant things. Their inadequate mortal brains try to piece together the situation and project what will likely happen, based on how things are going now, but they can't see every odd decision someone may make, so Quaithe saw that, MOST LIKELY, Tyrion and Moqorro would hook up directly with Dany, and that fAegon would meet her sooner rather than later. fAegon's decision has changed things slightly and an errant storm delayed Tyrion and Moqorro, but they are still probably going to meet her, only under different circumstances.

[Agravayne]

Aegon's "status" all comes down to the Prophecy of the Dragon with Three Heads. Varys and Illyrio believe in the PwwP prophecy and worked to make it happen.

Let's suppose that Aegon is really "Aegon" and Illyrio's son by Serra (Blackfyre) and the plot is to put "Aegon" Mopatis on the throne, then why go through the farce of Viserys at all -- arrange an accident for him and marry "Aegon" to Dany. Yet no one seemed to want Viserys to die. Illyrio even tried to keep Viserys safe at his mansion until Drogon returned. For that matter, why bother with the farce that Aegon is a Targaryen? Viserys can still die, Aegon can marry Dany and unite the Realm and reunite the bloodlines. The Golden Company would support him either way. Likely the Realm as well.

The answer is the Prophecy. Illyrio and Varys believe that they must have three Targaryens -- three heads of the dragon. Since they know that Aegon is "Aegon," why would they think that the prophecy would work? If Aegon Blackfyre is enough of a Targaryen to be a "dragonhead," then likely Stannis, Robert and Shireen qualify as well. They are all more "dragon" than Aegon Mopatis.

This is why I think Aegon is real.

[bent branch]

Aegon's "status" all comes down to the Prophecy of the Dragon with Three Heads. Varys and Illyrio believe in the PwwP prophecy and worked to make it happen.

Let's suppose that Aegon is really "Aegon" and Illyrio's son by Serra (Blackfyre) and the plot is to put "Aegon" Mopatis on the throne, then why go through the farce of Viserys at all -- arrange an accident for him and marry "Aegon" to Dany. Yet no one seemed to want Viserys to die. Illyrio even tried to keep Viserys safe at his mansion until Drogon returned. For that matter, why bother with the farce that Aegon is a Targaryen? Viserys can still die, Aegon can marry Dany and unite the Realm and reunite the bloodlines. The Golden Company would support him either way. Likely the Realm as well.

The answer is the Prophecy. Illyrio and Varys believe that they must have three Targaryens -- three heads of the dragon. Since they know that Aegon is "Aegon," why would they think that the prophecy would work? If Aegon Blackfyre is enough of a Targaryen to be a "dragonhead," then likely Stannis, Robert and Shireen qualify as well. They are all more "dragon" than Aegon Mopatis.

This is why I think Aegon is real.

:agree: Whether Aegon is real or not all comes down to Varys' and Illyrio's motivation for what they are doing. The PTWP/3HotD prophecies are the only motivation that makes sense of all their actions.

[Woo woo]

A side note on one of the prophecies involving the dark flame which I believe moqorro(sp?). I have always felt something is not right with the whole lord of light angle. It supposed to be good but all I get is an evil vibe. At one point I thought that The Lord of light was just a form of the great other used to trick people. Don't necessarily think that is the truth but something just doesn't add up there.

[Last Stark]

Didn't the original version of this chapter (which George read at a con) have Quaithe saying "crow and kraken" rather than "kraken and dark flame"? I wonder who that was meant to reference...

Geographically Samwell is furthest south, maybe GRRM intended for Sam to travel with Marwyn

[Dorzalty]

Varys was an actor (a mummer) in Myr... He supposedly is responsible for saving Aegon as a baby by replacing him w another baby right ?

Whether aegon is a real dragon or not, "mummer" may just imply the connection w Varys that Aegon has/probably has.

[The Mummer]

I always found it curious Quaithe wanted Dany to go to Asshai so she can find "truth". Now, not talking about what the "truth" is (I think it could do something with R+L=J or more probably The Others), I think that by saying not to trust anyone, Quaithe wanted to warn Dany not to go with any of those people. All of them wanted to take her west, whereas Quaithe wanted to take her east.

Another thing popped into my mind while reading the comments - why Marwyn would be omitted from the prophecy. Now, we know that the archmaester has spent eight years in the east, studying with shadowbinders - right? So, if he were to meet Dany, maybe he would lead her to Asshai - thus Quaithe would not have to warn her about him - Marwyn and Quaithe have the same goal (if what I think is true), and it's for her to get to Asshai to learn something. Now, I disliked Marwyn on the first read, but I'll have to reread the chapter again to get a better feel of his intentions.

And the moment I read the prophecy, I thought that the "perfumed seneschal" is Varys. And now, after all has been said and read, I still think it's him (though I did consider other things while reading). Still, Varys wanted her on the throne, so that would again mean that he wants her to go west.

[BrojenReed]

Isn't it possible that Dany heard "Sun's son" when really it was son's son? That could allude to either Brown Ben Plumm (Second Son; a stretch I admit) or the son's son meaning Aegon or Jon (sons of Rhaegar).

And I've always been of the opinion that it's "soon comes the pale mare, and after her the Others".

[The Mummer]

Of all the games Martin played with us, I honestly doubt he would also make a character mishear a word.

And I've always been of the opinion that it's "soon comes the pale mare, and after her the Others".

I thought so too, but it was "others" in the text. Which does not mean that it has no double meaning :)

[BrojenReed]

Of all the games Martin played with us, I honestly doubt he would also make a character mishear a word.

Yeah, it's far-fetched. It occurred to me after I read of a discrepancy somewhere in these forums regarding something Mel says. In ADWD she mentions looking for Azor Ahai and only seeing Snow, specifically with a capital 'S'. But when Jon hears her say it, it reads snow with a lowercase 's', which a lot of people seem to think is due to Jon misinterpreting her meaning. So I borrowed that logic in suggesting that Dany may have misinterpreted Quaithe.

I thought so too, but it was "others" in the text. Which does not mean that it has no double meaning :)

Yup, agreed!

[AryaBaratheon]

This is not how succession works. All of Rhaegar's line must die out before Aerys' other children could inherit (though there is some evidence that women would be skipped over in favor of the next male claimant). It doesn't matter that Rhaegar himself never became king.

The rules of succession vary greatly across different cultures (both in our world and in GRRM's). Dornish women inherit before younger male siblings, and the Targs have had many issues here. Targ's have further complicated this with their dalliances into polygamy and/or incest. And then there's the legitimization of numerous bastard children...

The Dance of Dragons was proof that the rules of Targ succession are a moving target.

Edited for typos

[Dukhasinov]

And the moment I read the prophecy, I thought that the "perfumed seneschal" is Varys. And now, after all has been said and read, I still think it's him (though I did consider other things while reading). Still, Varys wanted her on the throne, so that would again mean that he wants her to go west.

I think Quaith and her prophecies are a red herring to mislead Danny. Just about everything Quaith warns Danny of is something that can only be good for her. "The Lion and the Gryphon" are obviously Tyrion and Jon Connington, who are going to great pains to help her. The "Mummer`s Dragon" is Quaith trying to drive a wedge between Danny and Aegon. As to the "Perfumed Seneschal," That seemed pretty obviously Varys until A Dance With Dragons. Remember Selaesori Qhoran, the ship carrying Tyrion, Moqorro, and Jorah Mormont to Danny`s service? Remember Tyrion discussing the meaning of that colorful name, concluding with "Fragrant Steward?" Yeah. Perfumed Seneschal.

[The Mummer]

Wow, I've been off the forum for quite a while!

I think Quaith and her prophecies are a red herring to mislead Danny. Just about everything Quaith warns Danny of is something that can only be good for her. "The Lion and the Gryphon" are obviously Tyrion and Jon Connington, who are going to great pains to help her. The "Mummer`s Dragon" is Quaith trying to drive a wedge between Danny and Aegon. As to the "Perfumed Seneschal," That seemed pretty obviously Varys until A Dance With Dragons. Remember Selaesori Qhoran, the ship carrying Tyrion, Moqorro, and Jorah Mormont to Danny`s service? Remember Tyrion discussing the meaning of that colorful name, concluding with "Fragrant Steward?" Yeah. Perfumed Seneschal.

Well, depends on what you mean by "mislead". These were all good for her, true, if she were to go west and claim the Throne. But what about the Others, and the whole Ice and Fire thing? I see her as Fire, and I imagine her being out of the Game, and up on the wall melting the Others like nothing. We also need to take Quaith's motives into consideration, why is she even helping her? Or, not helping her?