[ADWD Spoilers] Jon, Stannis, Melisandre

[Gendels Children]

Many people think Melisandre will revive Jon Snow ... if Jon Snow is actually dead, do you imagine the revival would cost Mel her life? After all, George has a claim to fame to uphold and it's starting to wear thin with so many revivals and fake deaths, so I think there should be some sort of cost for Jon's life.

Also, do you think that Melisandre loves Stannis? It makes some sense; Mel is shown particularly in aDwD to be human and make human mistakes. She also is of the view that there is no gray, only black and white, somewhat like Stannis is. Even though Stannis seems sort of unlovable to most, I think Melisandre may be so dead-set on Stannis being AA because she is actually either in love with him or obsessed with him, and so she fails to read the fires properly because of that.

interesting, that would explain a lot, like why she would try to fool other into thinking Stannis is AA by fraudulating LightBringer, rather than just waiting for the truth to be proved in its own good time.

I just don't get the whole Mel Stannis deal- we clearly find out that Mel is pretty much full of crap, everything she does is a scam/sham. Why the whole Stannis is AA dress up. Seems like a lot of work and lying just to get stuck at the Wall- if Jon is AA why not just go to him in the first place?

a little harsh there, she isnt full of crap many of the things she has seem have indeen come true, with no benifit to herself

[Gendels Children]

:blushing: let's go back to the topic. Is about mel killing a innocent baby. all because she wants save the world. But she really doing good. Maybe melissandre is wrong and unintentionally misleading Stannis.

Sorry my english. The last phrase i used google translate :blushing:

exactly, and ur english is fine :) . is it truly so wrong to kill one person or maybe a few, to save the whole world. think about all the little babies she think she would be saving in her actioins...... :dunno:

[David of Kent]

I'm rather hoping Jon simply survives the attack in some way that isn't related to the use of another life to save his or Melisandre saving him with red magic. I know this is fantasy, but 'm wary of the line being crossed when there are too many major characters being "killed" just to see them being resuscitated with magic

[Jethro]

Im going with the "jon 're'born amidst salt and smoke" theory (I do not know if this is a widely used theory but I put my trust into it)

In the end I think that both Stannis and Melisandre are going to have to suffer the consequences of playing with fire to much.

my second theory is that Jon will simply do vanish into his wolf until they fix his body.

[Binadas Sengar]

There is an absolute difference between the murder of a child and the murder of an adult regardless of your faith/beliefs. I agree in saying there is no definitive black & white in the world only perceptions. With that said there are certain concepts that are 99.9% on one side of the spectrum. Murder is murder regardless of it being a child or an adult. Both of which are on the far side of the dark spectrum. But the difference between a child and an adult is the ability for that child to have their own perceptions as well and be able to defend their side in some fashion.

Both are horrible in my eyes but at least adults have the ability to protect themselves. Murdering a child has an extra layer of cruelty added to it no matter what morals you have. I guess you are saying in Mel's eyes and in her religious beliefs murdering a child is what has to be done so in her perception it isn't as wrong? I really don't know where your defense to this is. Even if it is part of her faith, it is an act of cruelty and unwilling sacrifice. It isn't an act she feels is innocent and acceptable it is something that is blatantly cruel to do. There is no way of saying a child is not innocent in some belief structures. That's the point of the sacrifice anyway, giving an INNOCENT life to the deity. The innocence is not based on perception at all its based on the fact that the child has no ability to defend or even understand what they are being forced to do. The concept of innocence being a biased POV doesn't apply here... If somebody breaks into your house and you fear for your life and kill the intruder then there is a question of intent and confusion. Murder is murder but when it is your last resort then there is that shade of gray.

You are looking at the wrong definition of innocent. If we are to look at the concept of innocence with regard to actions and morality then I agree it is perception because all actions of an individual are subject to judgment. But the other definition of an innocent is a young child. And yet another definition of innocence that applies to a little kid being sacrificed is being free of the moral wrongdoing they are being punished for. This wasn't a trial for some kid that did something wrong and was punished by death. This is a little kid where his/her only crime was being alive and a child. To be punished unwillingly for no wrongdoing is the epitome of innocence no matter what your moral fiber may actually be.

Let me ask you a question... if the little child being murdered is not innocent... what is it guilty of? If the answer is ____________.... aka nothing.... then they are innocent and don't deserve the sacrifice. ESPECIALLY since they can't do anything to stop it or even understand it. Naivete is a factor too.

Wow an argument for absolute values and universal standards that spans not only the world but fictional ones as well. I agree but will own the values as mine. Not sure how Mel would look through old Aztec eyes or Assyrian eyes.

[wolfmaid7]

Jon clearly isn't dead,wounded i believe;gravely wounded but not dead. I cite Bran's vision about seeing him in an ice cell with the warmth leaving him. I doubt that some of the wild ling loyal to Jon;knowing his devotion to the old ways would allow Mel to touch him.

There is no doubt Mel knows Stannis is not AA, if she had to glamour his sword she knows she's full of BS.I don't know what her end game is,but whatever it is she thinks she can accomplish it with Stan the man.

[Dio Forel]

Wow an argument for absolute values and universal standards that spans not only the world but fictional ones as well. I agree but will own the values as mine. Not sure how Mel would look through old Aztec eyes or Assyrian eyes.

Mel would be their poster-child, of course... lol. Blood... sacrifice... That was their common practice. To me it was primitive and naive. But thats just me. Well more cruelly primitive and maybe not so much naivety as ignorance to morality. And indifference to mortality, and blatant insanity as far as I am concerned.

But in that time there were different concepts/acts accepted as normal. Everything is relative, hindsight is 20-20. But, bottom line, accepted or not, cruelty now is as cruelty was then. Despite deluded thoughts of pleasing a higher power it was still bloodlust and maniacal behavior.

[Lucifer Lightbringer]

Has anyone mentioned that Jon was named as Robb's heir before the Red Wedding? I have been waiting for that to come back into mention since book III. I always got the feeling that Jon was intended to join the game of thrones somehow, as opposed to being some kind of prophesied messiah.

[IRON BANK]

Many people think Melisandre will revive Jon Snow ... if Jon Snow is actually dead, do you imagine the revival would cost Mel her life?

Yes I believe all Mel's magic comes with a loss of years from it's source... Stannis after the shadow babies seems to be weaker, to revive Jon snow it might cost Mel her life.

[Black Crow]

Has anyone mentioned that Jon was named as Robb's heir before the Red Wedding? I have been waiting for that to come back into mention since book III. I always got the feeling that Jon was intended to join the game of thrones somehow, as opposed to being some kind of prophesied messiah.

Its his get out of jail free card. Robb declared him to be the lawful son of Eddard Stark. He can't in law be the the son of Eddard Stark and the son of Rhaegar Targaryen. It means he gets to choose.

[Black Crow]

Yes I believe all Mel's magic comes with a loss of years from it's source... Stannis after the shadow babies seems to be weaker, to revive Jon snow it might cost Mel her life.

Unlike Stannis Mel is already dead, being Fire made flesh and hiding that behind her glamour.

[bemused]

Its his get out of jail free card. Robb declared him to be the lawful son of Eddard Stark. He can't in law be the the son of Eddard Stark and the son of Rhaegar Targaryen. It means he gets to choose.

Not necessarily. Ned was probably not mentioned. ( of course Robb believed he was Ned's son , everyone does ) But he may just simply have named him his heir.

[Black Crow]

Nope, he legitimised him:

...Catelyn knew how stubborn her son could be. "A bastard cannot inherit."

"Not unless he's legitimised by royal decree," said Robb. "There is more precedent for that than for releasing a Sworn Brother from his oath."

"Precedent," she said bitterly. "Yes, Aegon the Fourth legitimized all his bastards on his deathbed. And how much pain, gruef, war, and murder grew from that? I know you trust Jon. But can you trust his sons? Or their sons? The Blackfyre pretenders troubled the Targaryens for five generations, until Barristan the Bold slew the last of them on the Stepstones. If you make Jon legitimate, there is no way to turn him bastard again."

[Tyrion_the_Oneironaut]

I can see Melisandre killing Stannis once he finally returns to the wall because she has faced the truth that he is not AA.

[Toxspecific]

I can see Melisandre killing Stannis once he finally returns to the wall because she has faced the truth that he is not AA.

Why kill him and thus endanger herself when she could flee? Why even announce her intentions right now where she can so easily be apprehended?

[Tyrion_the_Oneironaut]

Why kill him and thus endanger herself when she could flee? Why even announce her intentions right now where she can so easily be apprehended?

Ah, but there's the real trick.

Stannis' men all see her as a goddess of sorts, and everything she says is gospel. Who would they choose, I wonder? Their king, or their god?

Anyway I'm much more interested in Jon's relationship with his Ghost should he make it out alive. Will he put his complete faith in his direwolf from here on out?

[Toxspecific]

Ah, but there's the real trick.

Stannis' men all see her as a goddess of sorts, and everything she says is gospel. Who would they choose, I wonder? Their king, or their god?

Anyway I'm much more interested in Jon's relationship with his Ghost should he make it out alive. Will he put his complete faith in his direwolf from here on out?

Stannis men all see her? Dude, you're forgetting the part of his camp who are

1. Northmen

2. King's Men

The Queen's Men are the ones who follow her blindly.

[Tyrion_the_Oneironaut]

By his men I meant the queensguard, not his bannermen. Sorry.

[bemused]

Black Crow...

Ohoooo...I'd forgotten that , thanks.

Well, if he gets to choose, I can't see Jon choosing any other way but Stark , can you ? I mean, there may still be wrinkles, but ultimately, it's his Stark blood that's dominant and I can't feel any switch up is coming ( knock on wood ;) )

I was just thinking last night that for those who are dying to see Jon's parentage revealed , that it might not still be for a while yet, because he's probably going to be widely embraced as a Stark , first.

Anyway everything seems to be heading for a reset, North, South and across the Narrow Sea .. so will even the established laws undergo alteration when the dust settles? ( I mean the political ones , not the moral ones like guest right and kinslaying )

I just don't see Mel having a part in Jon's recovery ( not resurrection ). Her interference would change or diminish what Jon is , whatever he's called. So , for me the question is not how will she save him , but how will he avoid her.

[Lady Arya's Song]

I am soo in agreement with you Bemused.

I seriously would hate it if George writes the story line with Melisandra having any part of Jon's recovery.

As to Stannis's kings men. They are not with Stannis! Jon notes that only Queen's men are with Stannis and he hears gossip that the king's men were all left back at Storm's End or Dragon Stone because they ticked him off! ( Probably over squirreling Edric away). Good think Jon spoke up and gave Stannis a better option than what the Queen's men wanted..attacking Dreadfort or Moat Cailin.

Stannis is surrounded by Queen's men in the last chapters of ADWD and a sorry twisted lot they are. Back at the Wall when Jon read that letter that Stannis was dead..what will Queen Selyse do nutter that she is?

Last count half a hundred wildlings from Mole town now follow the Red witch and a dozen perhaps of NW. Plus the few Queen's guards left. If Stannis continuous with the red god junk..he is going to be toast in the north..cutting down heart trees and forcing people to abandon their gods....they will never accept that up north.