Tormund Ukrainesbane Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Can't say as I wouldn't riot over the police if I was a black guy in any major American city. I can't imagine London is much better. Unfortunately the police will of course be immune to any repercussion for their actions and be lauded as heroes but what are you going to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hereward Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 It's the economy, stupid, and nothing more.No, it's really not, far from it, and the article doesn't say it is. I'm willing to believe that this is, to some extent, about the feeling of being ignored, but that is a feeling shared by a great many groups in society. I'm willing to accept this is partially about impending welfare cuts. I'm also willing to believe this is to some small extent about reduced chances of accessing higher education. But mostly, this is about loss of hope and incoherent rage.It's not about the economy, let alone all about the economy, because the people who are rioting didn't benefit very much, if at all, from 15 years of a booming economy. Hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of jobs were created in this period, but almost none of them were taken by the people of sink estates. They were filled by migrants from the EU and elsewhere. People in the poorest parts of the country became habituated to unemployment and unwilling or unable to take advantage of educational or employment opportunities in a boom. Does the terrible outlook help? Of course not, it must surely be one of the final straws, but let's not fool ourselves that they're recently unemployed and angry that the economy is no longer providing opportunities. They are uneducated, often uneducatable, unemployed, sometimes for generations, and unemployable. That is a massive, and more intractable, social problem, not an economic problem per se. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vestrit Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 I don't know that burning down candy shops and stealing flatscreen TVs qualifies as "advancement", but OK.And destroying south-central LA in 1992 didn't actually do any of the locals any actual good but it sure got the message across. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteHaven Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 This isn't a protest, this is anarchy, theft, and violence.They are destroying their own communities. The people to 'blame' for the growing poverty are sat in their million pound flats laughing at their stupidity.Yeah, that's why I wrote earlier that it is NOT okay to steal from a poor fella who tries to make a living. I am NOT approving senseless theft and violence. I approve protest - and sometimes you have to use violence to achieve your goals. Of course it is fucking stupid to steal from a man who sells some TV'S in a little store and I am sorry for those who loose their livelihood due to theft and anarchy.However, if some of those protesters would start stealing from our delegates I'd cheer for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hereward Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Can't say as I wouldn't riot over the police if I was a black guy in any major American city. I can't imagine London is much better. Unfortunately the police will of course be immune to any repercussion for their actions and be lauded as heroes but what are you going to do?This is projection. The Metropolitan Police are held responsible for their actions, and lose their jobs for misconduct and are jailed for breaking the law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigFatCoward Posted August 9, 2011 Author Share Posted August 9, 2011 This all started because the police shot a man who had a firearm (got what he had coming in the opinion of most but that is a different topic). Most of these ball bags would have beaten the bloke up themselves if he strayed onto their 'turf' due to the ridiculous postcode agenda that these ar$eholes have. It has jack sh1t to do with anything other than causing a disturbance as large as they possibly can and stealing as much as they can carry. Violence as a method of protest is a useful and sometimes valid tool. But not in this case. To argue otherwise is beyond ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattyp Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Yeah, that's why I wrote earlier that it is NOT okay to steal from a poor fella who tries to make a living. I am NOT approving senseless theft and violence. I approve protest - and sometimes you have to use violence to achieve your goals. Of course it is fucking stupid to steal from a man who sells some TV'S in a little store and I am sorry for those who loose their livelihood due to theft and anarchy.However, if some of those protesters would start stealing from our delegates I'd cheer for them.If they were breaking into banks and their vaults, i'd applaud. :laugh: All this is doing is causing growing class and racial tension. No good will come of this. Sure they're noticed, but for all the wrong reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xayoz Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 There are actually people here, trying to justify the actions of those animals?This makes me sad.I hope they bring out the army asap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoë Sumra Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Posting from home due to Shepherd's Bush businesses being advised to close down. "Home" is quarter a mile from the smallest disturbance last night. :P Very tempted to go round and see what's going on now and if they're still clearing up and need a hand. I suspect they'll have stopped by now and just closed up everything instead in case it kicks off again.Oh, I'm sure they were noticed. It was just that the legislative agenda they preferred wasn't enacted. In a democratic society, 2000 don't have the right to dictate to everyone else. They have the right to vote, and to protest peacefully, but their "right" to be listened to isn't any greater than the rights of any other group of 2000 voters.Unfortunately for your argument, the same dynamic exists in many different situations including RL and internet debating on marginality issues - rational argument against marginalisation is presented, is ignored by members of privileged gruop, trolling produces response "we don't listen to trolling: why don't you debate this rationally?". Very easy and very common for the dominant group - not specifically the majority: the privileged group - to behave in this way.Not a defence - an explanation. :thumbsup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Lord of Winterfell Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Did you even read the article?Yes. And the article is all talking about the actual conditions there, not just press coverage. I'm 3000 miles away, and even I'm aware that there have been complaints in Britain, that Labor has been pushing for more social services, etc. These issues have been aired, and have been discussed. The fact that this article was written shows that someone has listened. Of course rioters like to couch it differently, but the bottom line is they're pissed because their grievances haven't been addressed to their satisfaction, not because there wasn't a story in the local paper commemorating their march.Tottenham has an MP, right? I looked, and it's David Lammy. Black, Labor, who won overwhelmingly. That's their voice in Parliament. Presumably, they elected him because they expected him to represent their views.The claim that this isn't really about anything actually changing, but only people "listening", is self-serving drivel. Of course violent riots are going to get more press coverage than a relatively small rally. That's nothing new.Suppose the press had run a short article on that march, but nothing happened or changed as a result. Suppose Cameron visits Tottenham a year ago, says "too bad", and leaves? Or the local head of Scotland Yard pokes his head out, watches the marchers, then walks back inside and does nothing. Would that have satisfied anyone, or made a damn bit of difference other than to perhaps make them more angry? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Lord of Winterfell Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Can't say as I wouldn't riot over the police if I was a black guy in any major American city. I can't imagine London is much better. Unfortunately the police will of course be immune to any repercussion for their actions and be lauded as heroes but what are you going to do?I dunno. In my neck of the woods, the complaint from most black neighborhoods is that there aren't enough police around.Back in 1991 or so, the do-gooding members of the Charlottesville City Council (where I was going to law school at the time) thought that there were too many police oppressing the poor, based on a few complaints from some citizens (actually, drug dealers, but I suppose they were citizens as well). So the City Council ordered a reduced presence in the black neighborhoods, etc. to stop the oppression. It was in all the papers, lots of self-congratulations for their enlightened perspectives, etc.Two days after the new policy went into effect, there was a massive march from the people of those neighborhoods on City Hall, demanding more of a police presence to get the "hoodlums" out of their neighborhoods. I had a criminal law clinic class that day out in town, and we went out to watch the whole thing. It was pretty amusing watching all those stereotypes vanish. Here you had a bunch of good, decent people from black neighborhoods (destroying one stereotype) demanding more police in their neighborhoods (another steretype biting the dust), and growing increasingly angry at the do-gooders supposedly having their interests at heard (another stereotype blown).Sure, there are crappy cops, just like there are lots of other crappy people. But overall, they do their jobs, and most try to be fair about it. They're imperfect, but until a more perfect solution presents itself, we ought not to blanketly demonize those who do serve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sixshells Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 These riots remind me a lot of the french riots of november 2005. The pretext is of similar nature (someone killed by police in not yet fully understood cirumstances, and a peaceful protest that degenerates), and at this point the people involved seem similar (poor young people, from minorities for a good part, feeling marginalized, with no hopes for the future and venting their frustration in mindless criminal rage). Although I must say I find surprising that, at this level of violence, the police seems not to have been yet authorized to use tear gas, water cannons or plastic bullets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derfel Cadarn Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Not picking on you, Derf, but I just can't understand the use of that word. What are they 'sympathising' with? What's the cause they're supporting, the movement? The 'let's nick a TV from Currys' movement? Supporters might be a better word. The person/people trying to get similar riots organised in Glasgow stated it was to show support with the rioters down south. I've heard there may be an attempt to cause trouble in the Glasgow City centre over the weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hereward Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Although I must say I find surprising that, at this level of violence, the police seems not to have been yet authorized to use tear gas, water cannons or plastic bullets.The British police does not possess water cannon or plastic bullets, as far as I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sixshells Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 The British police does not possess water cannon or plastic bullets, as far as I know.That does not seem very far-sighted. What is the usual procedure in case of a riot or a violent demonstration? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hereward Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 That does not seem very far-sighted. What is the usual procedure in case of a riot or a violent demonstration?It's not a case of lack of foresight. It is traditional British public policy to keep the police disarmed to the greatest possible extent. This is not just confined to their lack of handguns. In general, riots are met with baton charges, sometimes mounted ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Storm Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 I understand being upset with the conditions in their neighborhood, but burning and looting stores will not convince more stores/businesses to go there and create new jobs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pebble thats Stubby Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 As far as I am aware the police have never used plastic buliets in mainalnd UK. although permisson to use rubber buliets has been granted a few years ago, so I assume they have some, and they just need permission to use them in this instance.I keep on seeing images of people clearing up the mess and making preperations for tonight incase the riots return to their area. The news reporters are stressing that its all the local people doing hte clearing up and they are not waiting o the government to help. Is this Camerons Big Society in action? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evanesco75 Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 What measures can the police take at this stage to crush these riots immediately and effectively? Is heavy patrolling in increased numers enough to end this disaster? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serious Callers Only Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Traps. Simply organize some "looting 'n burning" expeditions with overwhelming force of police hidden.Break some bones, arrest everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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