To pose a Bloodraven question

[Theo1]

It sure sounds like BR is pretty weak and not going anywhere, and may not be capable of doing too much thinking, warging, or communicating before long(like those children of the forest that bran sees hooked up to WWs in the caves, who can follow him with their eyes but cannot speak. Bran is his replacement.

I know people want Bran to go out and kick some ass, but he is turning into a Demi-god, with the ability to become all knowing by accessing events in the past and present (if there are WWs around at least).

The ability to influence people (like Theon) is very powerful. He helps him remember who he is, that he is not Reek, and helps him get the courage to participate in the Jeyne rescue. Also, the ability to enter people's dream and influence them, give them things to ponder and act on Is pretty huge.

[BurnedCrow]

There seem to be multiple theories running into each other here. The predominant theory seems to be that Bloodraven is passing on his gifts to Bran in order to help Dany and Snow fight the Others. This is makes sense due to the fact that Bloodraven was a Targaryen loyalist (i.e. he wants to Help Dany regain the throne - and if Jon Snow is indeed Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, him too). He was a LC of the Watch, so makes sense that he would be helping Bran defeat the Others, not help them. This would also support the suggested idea that he influenced Rhaegar's thoughts, perhaps leading him to kidnap Lyanna Stark (This I think links well with Rhaegar's awareness about the "3 heads of the dragon" in the House of the Undying) Also, since Bloodraven is on Dany's side, it makes Aegon's choice of the Golden Company (Bittersteel's legacy being reborn in Aegon?) that much more interesting.

The second theory, that Bloodraven is a malevolent force, intent on either A) taking Bran's life force and reanimating himself, or B) training Bran to assist the Others, seems to need some clarification. I don't think option A is really going to happen, but option B could be a more interesting plot development. We haven't gotten any indication from GRRM about the motivation of Coldhands and Bloodraven. The idea that the Children of the Forest could actually be working with the Others has not been canonically denied I believe. Thoughts?

Also, he could just be a Buddha-like figure. Bran is the next Dalai Lama. Crazy

[Aurubin]

Bran being unwittingly evil is interesting, but based on the actions of the wights, I don't really buy it. I would imagine in future books there might be some expository bit about how the Others and the Children are related, or are part of some elemental wheel, or something. This would explain how every religion, wizard, etc. can create their own brand of zombie. Coldhands is the main example.

Also, the wights were clearly trying to prevent Bran and co. from entering the Children's cave. That seems to indicate division between the Others and the Children, as the wights, from previous books, can clearly be directed by the Others.

Like most things in a GRRM book, I don't think there will be any clear cut "good" guy, but a fairly easy example of bad guy. The unfathomable Others, the depredations of groups like the Boltons and the Bloody Mummers, or the gross excess of the Masters of Slaver's Bay. The Rh'llor priesthood and the Children, ostensibly seem to be opposed to the Others, but certainly don't agree with one another.

Bloodraven needs more background, but I think GRRM may leave his personal motivations mysterious, if but to foster discussion.

[George Snow]

I don't understand the whole greenseer fascination. What can they do that's practical at this point? Bloodraven is a tree, he's not going anywhere and Brans a cripple stuck north of the wall surrounded by wights.

So they can see the past ...... so what? How does that help if they can't tell anyone in the present?

Are there any greenseer powers that can help in the present?

I don't see Bran leaving that cave anytime soon and as far as I can tell he can only see things around a wierwood tree and nothing happens near any weirwood trees especially down south where most are gone.

There has to be something better they can do otherwise its just stupid to have him stuck in a tree 100 miles north of the wall in a cave.

The interesting thing is that the temple where Arya is at has a weirwood door.

GH

[Black Crow]

Also, the wights were clearly trying to prevent Bran and co. from entering the Children's cave. That seems to indicate division between the Others and the Children, as the wights, from previous books, can clearly be directed by the Others.

Nothing is ever as it seems. The Wights are not sentient but drawn to heat signatures and I believe that those outside the cave were in fact a "minefield" protecting it from intruders.

[FanTasy]

If it has been profoundly discussed elsewhere my sincere apologies. If not: what are the thoughts about that Bloodraven and Ghost are both albino? To have two main characters in ASOIAF described as albino made me wonder. And it is described that Ghost once has been away from Jon for a long time, and north of the Wall.

[Black Crow]

I believe its been mentioned, but I can see where you're going...

[FanTasy]

Really? My head is full of theories, but not a single one fleshed out :frown5:

[FanTasy]

Oops ... there is another albino character, that Ghost of High Heart (if I remember correctly). Time to re-read that bit too.

ed

And there are some interesting thoughts in this thread: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/49940-albinos-weirwoods-and-greensight/

[ziggyender]

I think Bloodraven intentionally spread half the nasty rumors about himself. That might even be in the D&E tales.

I wonder what ever happened to his sister, Shiera Seastar, who was also reported to be sorceress, one who practiced the same sort of magic as her mother, who was herself said to have practiced life extension techniques. Perhaps Shiera taught them to her lover Bloodraven. If so, where is Shiera? Could she be Quaithe?

Or, did they have any children? I think Varys is too young, but I’m not sure.

And how is it that Aemon and Bloodraven went to the Wall together, where Bloodraven eventually rose to the rank of Lord Commander, and yet Aemon says nothing about this. How was Bloodraven lost to him? How could the Watch have completely lost track of their mission to fight the Others, given Bloodraven, who obviously knew the truth.

These things don’t quite add up.

When the NW has not seen the Others for many 100s of years, you need a new enemy i.e. the free folk. Bloodraven reminded them of this, and paid the price.

Q which POV has the same eyes as Shiera Seastar? Descendent of SS & BR?

Q which 3 POVs have their mothers die in child birth? Are they Targs? Have they all lived when mortals would have died? I.e. 1 by fire, 1 by drowning, 1 by knifes in the back.

[gogorath]

Nothing is ever as it seems. The Wights are not sentient but drawn to heat signatures and I believe that those outside the cave were in fact a "minefield" protecting it from intruders.

Care to quote anything that backs this up? We actually do have evidence of some level of sentience from the wights, as they expressly attacked the highest ranking Watch officer (Mormont) and killed the first ranger (though we don't know if he was the target or merely a responder) in Game.

I believe both the TV show and the books make a point of it. I also think Small Paul retains some of his memory when he becomes a wight (doesn't he verbalize some things that point to it?).

You've been pushing this narrative all over the place, but all of your evidence is pointing out that you can't prove it's not true. Which isn't exactly compelling.

[Ser Lepus]

Bloodraven is ruthless, cunning and dangerous, but I think his evil reputation owes mostly to:

a) Being a creepy looking albino bastard (the westerosi are VERY prejudiced, and very often will judge you based on your appaerance, lineage and gender rather than you deeds).

b ) Having gathered quite a host of powerful and influential enemies: He is (was) hated by the Blackfyre pretenders for obvious reasons, and was also hated by most of the Targaryens due to the trust kings Daeron II and Aerys I Targaryen put on him (he, a bastard was made Hand of the King, while there were trueborn Targaryen around, ready to take the responsability! the horror!).

c) Many of the lords of Westeros surely envied and resented the Targaryen, and despised Daeron II the Good and Aerys I, who were scholars, not warriors, but didn´t dare to speak ill of them openly, but they dared to do so of Bloodraven, at least before he become Hand of the Kind and become known as a feared spymaster and sorcerer who knew everything...

[slayer420]

I don't understand the whole greenseer fascination. What can they do that's practical at this point? Bloodraven is a tree, he's not going anywhere and Brans a cripple stuck north of the wall surrounded by wights.

So they can see the past ...... so what? How does that help if they can't tell anyone in the present?

Are there any greenseer powers that can help in the present?

I don't see Bran leaving that cave anytime soon and as far as I can tell he can only see things around a wierwood tree and nothing happens near any weirwood trees especially down south where most are gone.

There has to be something better they can do otherwise its just stupid to have him stuck in a tree 100 miles north of the wall in a cave.

You seem to not understand the powers that BR and bran have. Lets go thur them and look at how they can be used.

The power to warg many animals at once. This could come in very handy in a battle. Not only could you send wave after wave of armys of animals at your enemys, but also to scout and know your enemys every move. We have been told that before they but notes on ravens, the Cotf used them to talk thur. So bran could warg a raven see where anyone was, then instantly warg another one and tell jon or whoever there movements. This would be a huge advatage.

Also bran will have vast amounts of info from the trees. Not just what happened in front of the trees, but also info from any Cotf and wargs that are in the tree network. We know from six skins and bloodraven thats where all wargs end up. No one evertold bran that he could not share this info with anyone in the persent, just that he could not change the past. I see bran using the ravens like messigers all over the kingdom, warging into them and talking to anyone that can help in the upcoming battles.

He also has the power to see the future and get into peoples dreams. Not sure if they have to be a warg for him to get in to there head, but he still could talk to jon anytime he wanted (if jon is still alive). I see bran pulling all the starks back together thur dreams or ravens.

I do not think bran has to be in the tree for the rest of his life either. BR had his powers long before he was sent to the wall. IN dunk and egg we learn that he had alot of his powers that he has now. I think you only have to hook up to the tree to gain the powers., but after the training you are free to leave and still have the powers. I think the only reason the BR and children that are hooked to the trees now are to prolong there life.

[ziggyender]

also we know that at lest one wag, can wag into a wolf from Braavos to the Riverlands allmost every night. how far will Bran wag or see?

[Pliskin]

Bloodraven is ruthless, cunning and dangerous, but I think his evil reputation owes mostly to:

a) Being a creepy looking albino bastard (the westerosi are VERY prejudiced, and very often will judge you based on your appaerance, lineage and gender rather than you deeds).

b ) Having gathered quite a host of powerful and influential enemies: He is (was) hated by the Blackfyre pretenders for obvious reasons, and was also hated by most of the Targaryens due to the trust kings Daeron II and Aerys I Targaryen put on him (he, a bastard was made Hand of the King, while there were trueborn Targaryen around, ready to take the responsability! the horror!).

c) Many of the lords of Westeros surely envied and resented the Targaryen, and despised Daeron II the Good and Aerys I, who were scholars, not warriors, but didn´t dare to speak ill of them openly, but they dared to do so of Bloodraven, at least before he become Hand of the Kind and become known as a feared spymaster and sorcerer who knew everything...

The Westerosi also hated him for being a kinslayer and on top of that, using arrows (the weapon of cowards) to do so rather than facing his brother man to man.

[uncle fester]

Nothing is ever as it seems. The Wights are not sentient but drawn to heat signatures and I believe that those outside the cave were in fact a "minefield" protecting it from intruders.

Not entirely correct. The ones that ended up past the wall knew to go straight to Mormont's quarters.

It's not stated in the narrative, though there are clues. Delirious Dunk can't focus on Plumm's features after his fight at the well, which sounds a bit glamour-ific to me, and Plumm is clearly a spy or informant's of Bloodraven's, at the very least: "No doubt Butterwell is wondering how much Bloodraven knows... the answer is 'quite a lot'."

But I hope Plumm really was Bloodraven in disguise, purely for the frankly hilarious exchange by God's Eye in which someone says they'd all be bastards of Aegon IV's if half the tales were true, to which Plumm quips, "Who's to say we're not?" :lol:

Do remember that Ossifer Plumm was married to a Targ so there's Targ blood in the family.

[Ser Lepus]

The Westerosi also hated him for being a kinslayer and on top of that, using arrows (the weapon of cowards) to do so rather than facing his brother man to man.

He led a company of archers, a part of the army, during a war, that send volleys of arrows from a hilltop against the vanguard of the enemy army; it´s not like he personally killed his brother (he was shooting with the rest of his Ravens, but, who is to know whose arrow killed the Blackfyres?). If he is a kinslayer, then all the Targaryens and the Blackfyres (Baelor, Maekar, Daemon...) an also Bittersteel were kinslayers too, since they led armies of armed men against their relatives...

Yes, the knights despise bows and crossbows, since those allow "lesser" (meaning "non-knights") to kill them, but every lord and knight who can afford them still has archers, and usually will put a knight as their commander (in the real world, the captaincy of archers/crossbowmen was an important post); I´m sure the Blackfyres had their own archers and/or crossbowmen (they even hired myrish crossbowmen to stiffen their ranks). If Bloodraven hadn´t been despised for those another reasons I mentioned, his deed would neither be seen as glorious nor as villainous, just a volley of arrows during a battle, hardly something unexpected.

[Pliskin]

He led a company of archers, a part of the army, during a war, that send volleys of arrows from a hilltop against the vanguard of the enemy army; it´s not like he personally killed his brother (he was shooting with the rest of his Ravens, but, who is to know whose arrow killed the Blackfyres?). If he is a kinslayer, then all the Targaryens and the Blackfyres (Baelor, Maekar, Daemon...) an also Bittersteel were kinslayers too, since they led armies of armed men against their relatives...

Have you read the Dunk & Egg stories ?

Many characters refer to him as a kinslayer. He personally killed Daemon, and his two sons.

Maekar too was accused of kinslaying (his brother Baelor), though not in front of him. He knew people will talk and that he could do nothing to prevent it. And BR knew too. But for the former, it was an accident, and for the latter, it was war. So no real crime, but people still talk.

[Ser Lepus]

Have you read the Dunk & Egg stories ?

Many characters refer to him as a kinslayer. He personally killed Daemon, and his two sons.

Maekar too was accused of kinslaying (his brother Baelor), though not in front of him. He knew people will talk and that he could do nothing to prevent it. And BR knew too. But for the former, it was an accident, and for the latter, it was war. So no real crime, but people still talk.

I have read them; Bloodraven and his company, the Raven´s Teeth were stationed on a hilltop, and shoot arrows from there, killing Blackfyre and his two eldest sons, who were fighting in the vanguard; hardly a murder. Yes, Ser Osgrey calls him a murderer, but he is hardly a neutral narrator, since his family were Blackfyre supporters and his own son was killed that day; in truth, Bloodraven is no worse than the english archers in Agincourt or Crécy.

People call Bloodraven a kinslayer, but they probably wouldn´t do it if he wasn´t already despised for being a bastard, and if he wasn´t envied for the trust both Aerys I and Daeron the Good put on him; if he were a trueborn Blackwood who had gone back to obscurity after the battle, people would hardly remember him; he would be just that guy who was in charge of the archers in that battle and whose men had a lucky shot...

[Pliskin]

I have read them; Bloodraven and his company, the Raven´s Teeth were stationed on a hilltop, and shoot arrows from there, killing Blackfyre and his two eldest sons, who were fighting in the vanguard; hardly a murder. Yes, Ser Osgrey calls him a murderer, but he is hardly a neutral narrator, since his family were Blackfyre supporters and his own son was killed that day; in truth, Bloodraven is no worse than the english archers in Agincourt or Crécy.

People call Bloodraven a kinslayer, but they probably wouldn´t do it if he wasn´t already despised for being a bastard, and if he wasn´t envied for the trust both Aerys I and Daeron the Good put on him; if he were a trueborn Blackwood who had gone back to obscurity after the battle, people would hardly remember him; he would be just that guy who was in charge of the archers in that battle and whose men had a lucky shot...

Well, we agree on that. Never said the opposite.

As for who killed Daemon, you were right, my bad.

According to the wiki :

His Raven's Teeth ultimately gained the Weeping Ridge, and rained arrows down on Daemon Blackfyre from 300 yards away.Daemon and his twin sons were killed. For this, people would name him a kinslayer.