To pose a Bloodraven question

[Jon Targ]

Not to get off topic but I just finished a reread of an Arya chapter in Storm where Sandoe snatches her from the BwB and came upon something interesting. When Thoros looks into his flame and sees that Riverun is under seige by Lannisters he also mentions that the woodswitch can also see things that are going to happen through her weirwood trees.

"She has her own way of knowing things, that one. The weirwoods whisper in her ear when she sleeps."

And a few chapters earlier Arya hears her tell Lem and Tom O Sevens

"I dreamt of a roaring river and a woman that was a fish. Dead she drifted, with red tears on her cheeks, but when her eyes did open, oh, I woke from the terror."

That's obviously Cat following the red wedding and her subsequent "rebirth" into Uncat.

So how does she see the future from the weirwoods? I first thought she had greendreams but Jojen never says his dreams come from the Weirwoods. Can she somehow see the future through the weirwood network and will Bran get this power as well.

It might be possible that Bloodraven is showing her these dreams.

[Ser Lepus]

I want to clarify a point with regards to my previous posts: What I´m saying is that pre-Wall Bloodraven wasn´t an evil man 100 years ago; ruthless, cunning, scary, but not evil; I think he was somebody in between Tyrion and Tywin as a character.

I don´t know if the present Bloodraven is good, evil or something else; that´s a man who, after being Daeron the Good trusted spymaster for fifteen years and ruling as Hand of Aerys I for twelve years, fell from grace and was put in a dungeon for another twelve years by his nephew Maekar, sent to the Wall about seventy years ago, spent there time enough to become the Lord Commander and then went to a cave and spent al least fifty (more probably sixty) years there, attached to a tree, with the only company of aliens...those are life-changing experiences for sure..

The current Bloodraven could be anything and be up to anything, good or bad...

[the goat]

Just a quick thought on the BR/Egg relationship, and Egg sending BR to the Wall rather than pardoning him. Perhaps BR wanted to go to the Wall and join the NW. To be "closer to the action" so to speak.

[Ser Lepus]

Just a quick thought on the BR/Egg relationship, and Egg sending BR to the Wall rather than pardoning him. Perhaps BR wanted to go to the Wall and join the NW. To be "closer to the action" so to speak.

I don´t know, Egg seem to strongly dislike Bloodraven in the Dunk&Egg books, and also, after being kept locked in a dungeon by Egg´s father Maekar for twelve years, Egg had every reason to fear Bloodraveno would be a tiny bit pissed at his family...maybe he was afraid of him and wanted to get rid of him but didn´t dare to have his own uncle executed...

Or maybe Maester Aemon and Egg were the ones who learned of the Other´s return, and decided Bloodraven would be an usseful asset up there; Maester Aemon certainly knew about the prophecies, and Egg dabbled with magic too (remember Summerhall).

Anyways, I don´t think Bloodraven was feeling eager to help protect the kingdom of his relatives after being imprisioned for twelve years...he could have a change of heart later, but I doubt he went to the Wall on his own initiative.

[Dr Adder]

He probably doesn't much care whether or not a targ regains the throne, the man has bigger fish to fry in training up a novice greenseer.

[Pliskin]

Just a quick thought on the BR/Egg relationship, and Egg sending BR to the Wall rather than pardoning him. Perhaps BR wanted to go to the Wall and join the NW. To be "closer to the action" so to speak.

Egg cannot just free BR, without any consideration of the judgment (by his father Maekar) that led BR to the dungeons.

The best thing he could do was sending him to the Wall.

[the goat]

I don´t know, Egg seem to strongly dislike Bloodraven in the Dunk&Egg books, and also, after being kept locked in a dungeon by Egg´s father Maekar for twelve years, Egg had every reason to fear Bloodraveno would be a tiny bit pissed at his family...maybe he was afraid of him and wanted to get rid of him but didn´t dare to have his own uncle executed...

Or maybe Maester Aemon and Egg were the ones who learned of the Other´s return, and decided Bloodraven would be an usseful asset up there; Maester Aemon certainly knew about the prophecies, and Egg dabbled with magic too (remember Summerhall).

Anyways, I don´t think Bloodraven was feeling eager to help protect the kingdom of his relatives after being imprisioned for twelve years...he could have a change of heart later, but I doubt he went to the Wall on his own initiative.

Well, why let him out at all then? I know there was the pretense of releasing all the Red Keep's prisoners as an honor guard for Aemon, but if Egg really hated/was scared of BR, just let him rot rather than release him (to some degree) and send him along with your beloved brother. It just seems too convenient for GRRM.

Egg cannot just free BR, without any consideration of the judgment (by his father Maekar) that led BR to the dungeons.

The best thing he could do was sending him to the Wall.

He was King, he could do whatever he wanted. Obviously pardoning someone (especially a family member) who was imprisoned by your father would likely have consequences, but its not beyond his power. That said, my whole point is they didn't want to cause any political issues/arouse any suspicions, so BR was sent to the Wall under the "honor guard" pretense.

In any event, we will hopefully learn more about the whole situation in future D&E stories.

[Howlin' Howland Reed]

I don´t know, Egg seem to strongly dislike Bloodraven in the Dunk&Egg books

Hmm, I didn't get that impression at all. I got the feeling that Egg just saw him as some weird older relative.

[skins7778]

It might be possible that Bloodraven is showing her these dreams.

I didnt think Bloodraven had greendreams.

[Chise]

I didnt think Bloodraven had greendreams.

not gonna lie, the Dunk & Egg stories completely throw a wrench into greendreams mechanics... Because quite a few Targaryens had the damn dreams (Daeron, Egg's older brother, had the one about the dragon and Dunk. Daemon jr had all those dreams he soooo shared when drunk)

and Bloodraven is half a Targ... so he may just have a few of those (possibly boosted by his Blackwood blood half)

[the goat]

not gonna lie, the Dunk & Egg stories completely throw a wrench into greendreams mechanics... Because quite a few Targaryens had the damn dreams (Daeron, Egg's older brother, had the one about the dragon and Dunk. Daemon jr had all those dreams he soooo shared when drunk)

and Bloodraven is half a Targ... so he may just have a few of those (possibly boosted by his Blackwood blood half)

I don't think its too much of a stretch. We currently have three "siblings" who are warging: one who's being taught (Bran), one who kinda knows what's going on because he's seen evidence of others doing it (Jon), and one who doesn't know what's going on (Arya). Not to mention all the other current sorcerers(esses): Mel, Marwyn, Moqorro, Quaite, the Qartheen, Thoros, MMD. And, of course, the other important point is that two of the three you mentioned (Daeron & Daemon II) were notorious drunks, whereas BR was a trained sorcerer (& half Targ/half First Men blood).

[Chise]

whereas BR was a trained sorcerer (& half Targ/half First Men blood).

well, guess its just me again, as usual. My brain worked out all these lil charts... and then the Blackwood blood of Bloodraven is what totally screwed them up.

Weren't the First Men chopping up weirwoods and fighting Children of Forest?!? and, um, the entire crest of Blackwood is build around an image of a very much dead weirwood too.... so its just very bizarre in my head that he comes from down South. Well, south~ish, either way Riverlands aint The North. Stark kids doin the warg thing works out, as they're from the North where even summer has snow! and close to Old Gods and all that business... but I'm leaving my point, sorry

_ahem_ so yes, Blackwood is South, place w/ no 'functioning' weirwoods left, a house with no "live link" to the Old Gods inter-root Network, and BAM! be gets to totally be SysAdmit of the whole thing by the end

yeah... my money's on the Targ blood holding more power in that equation

'cause otherwise... seriously, Bloodraven's magical abilities are completely overlapping against all odds on his family bloodlines (I'm attempting to apply reality logic to a fantasy novel again... dammit, its time to get off the internet and go to bed)

but back to greendreams! if Targ's can have them, why hasn't Dany had some already!?! Or is her blood too thinned out by this time

[skins7778]

well, guess its just me again, as usual. My brain worked out all these lil systems... and then the Blackwood blood of Bloodraven is what totally screwed them up. Weren't the First Men chopping up weirwoods and fighting Children of Forest?!? and, um, the entire crest of Blackwood is build around an image of a very much dead weirwood too.... so its just very bizarre in my head that he comes from down South (well, south~ish. either way Riverlands aint The North), a house with no "live link" to the Old Gods inter-root Network, and BAM! be gets to totally be SysAdmit of the whole thing by the end

yeah... my money's on the Targ blood holding more power in that one

but back to greendreams! if Targ's can have them, why hasn't Dany had some already!?! Or is her blood too thinned out by this time

We also have had no evidence that any other known or suspected Targs like Viserys, Aegon or Jon Have any prophetic visions. Jon has had some wierd dreams but normaly they are wolf dreams or something involving Winterfell.

[kissdbyfire]

Yeah, Bloodraven doesn't strike me as "evil" either. He lingered in his form for well over a hundred years probably waiting for another "Greenseer" to come along, found one in Bran and then communicated with him in a dream/coma state. If Bloodraven is well past his normal lifespan he may have been looking for a replacement. If having a greenseer is necessary for the proper order of things, and Bloodraven is the last one, that probably means he's been manipulating Bran and maybe Jojen Reed, to get them to the cave because it's his time to pass the torch. That doesn't make him good or evil, but it means he adopted an "ends justifies the means" approach. He sees a boy who dreamed of being a knight, who was crippled in a fall and frustrated about his loss of mobility, and reached out to him. As he told Bran, he couldn't make him walk again, but he could show him how to fly. Bran may see it as a consolation prize but I think he'll come to play a critical role in future events. He may be able to participate in the war for Dawn, even without the use of his legs, by learning to use his mind to communicate with other people, like he did to Theon in the godswood at Winterfell. So, Bloodraven is Bran's teacher and mentor in this scenario.

Yes, I think it's something along those lines, and maybe even a bit more 'specific'. Because BR tells Bran that he's seen Bran's birth and his father's (Eddard) birth, and Bran's first steps, so on and so forth. This makes me think that he has been keeping an eye (or a thousand and one eyes) on the Starks for a long time. Maybe he somehow knew his 'replacement' (or the person who would fulfil a certain very important role) would come from the Starks but wasn't exactly sure which Stark would it be until Bran was born. Another thing that strikes me as significant is the fact that it took Bran a long time to name his direwolf (compared to his siblings), and that he ended up choosing Summer, no less, and only AFTER he'd made contact with the 3EC.

[the goat]

well, guess its just me again, as usual. My brain worked out all these lil charts... and then the Blackwood blood of Bloodraven is what totally screwed them up.

Weren't the First Men chopping up weirwoods and fighting Children of Forest?!? and, um, the entire crest of Blackwood is build around an image of a very much dead weirwood too.... so its just very bizarre in my head that he comes from down South. Well, south~ish, either way Riverlands aint The North. Stark kids doin the warg thing works out, as they're from the North where even summer has snow! and close to Old Gods and all that business... but I'm leaving my point, sorry

_ahem_ so yes, Blackwood is South, place w/ no 'functioning' weirwoods left, a house with no "live link" to the Old Gods inter-root Network, and BAM! be gets to totally be SysAdmit of the whole thing by the end

yeah... my money's on the Targ blood holding more power in that equation

'cause otherwise... seriously, Bloodraven's magical abilities are completely overlapping against all odds on his family bloodlines (I'm attempting to apply reality logic to a fantasy novel again... dammit, its time to get off the internet and go to bed)

but back to greendreams! if Targ's can have them, why hasn't Dany had some already!?! Or is her blood too thinned out by this time

Hahaha, yeah, the CotF and First Men didn't get along so well originally, but they did eventually make nice. And they were on the same team when the shit got truly craycray (Long Night, etc). Anyway, I think its about 99.9999999999999999999999% certain that BR is the 3eC, so being half Blackwood is no barrier to greensight, at least.

Regarding Dany's lack of greendreams, see below:

We also have had no evidence that any other known or suspected Targs like Viserys, Aegon or Jon Have any prophetic visions. Jon has had some wierd dreams but normaly they are wolf dreams or something involving Winterfell.

1) According to several threads, we shouldn't be sure that "Aegon" is a real Targaryen. (FTR, I'm pretty sure he is.)

2) We've never had POVs from Viserys or Aegon, so how do you know they never had greendreams? Even if they understood what was happening (which they almost certainly wouldn't), its not something you'd wanna talk about much.

3) Dany's had so many visions/prophecies at this point, I can't keep them all straight. Are we sure she's never had any future vision dreams?

4) No one ever said every Targ, or half Targ, or 1/64 Targ would be a greenseer. At the same time, no one ever said there couldn't be two or three in one generation, because y'know...

5) ITS MAGIC!

[ARYa_Nym]

It might be possible that Bloodraven is showing her these dreams.

She's a COTF with red eyes. She probably inherently has the ability.

[skins7778]

I said suspected Targs which is why I included Jon with Aegon. As far az Dany goes her visions were in the House of the Undying in Quarth.

As far as the Targs prophetic dreams do we actually know if Bloodraven had them? As far as i could tell he is a greenseer who plugs into the weirnet for information on the PAST. He can also Warg into animals like crows to spy on the present, am i missing where he see's the future?

I think some people are mixing up weirwood powers

Greenseers- wiernet looking into past. (Bloodraven, bran)

Wargs- controlling animals (starks, varamyr, bloodraven)

Greenseer- see's the future in "greendreams"(jojen)

I could be wrong about all this though.

[kissdbyfire]

I said suspected Targs which is why I included Jon with Aegon. As far az Dany goes her visions were in the House of the Undying in Quarth.

As far as the Targs prophetic dreams do we actually know if Bloodraven had them? As far as i could tell he is a greenseer who plugs into the weirnet for information on the PAST. He can also Warg into animals like crows to spy on the present, am i missing where he see's the future?

I think some people are mixing up weirwood powers

Greenseers- wiernet looking into past. (Bloodraven, bran)

Wargs- controlling animals (starks, varamyr, bloodraven)

Greenseer- see's the future in "greendreams"(jojen)

I could be wrong about all this though.

Actually, a warg bounds specifically to a wolf, whereas a skinchanger can bond with any animal etc.

[kissdbyfire]

Actually, a warg bounds with wolves specifically, whereas skinchangers can bound to any animal such as crows, eagles, bears,etc.

Sorry for any misspelling, it's late and I'm tucked in.

Sweet dreams, guys.

[kissdbyfire]

Damn, tried to edit first post and it didn't work, and now, double post. Apologies.