To pose a Bloodraven question

[Chise]

ha ha, and then it triple posted *is easily amused*

yeah, what she said. Wargs only applies to wolves (bastardized Norse mythology and all)

Dany's visions in House of Undying were heavily fueled by drugs (well, whatever she drank to walk in) and the Undying themselves, so can't really count hers.

but ya know... if Viserys and Mad-King Aerys had some greendreams, that may explain why they were extra loopy. Having your head full of mental symbolism every night would do that...

[the goat]

I said suspected Targs which is why I included Jon with Aegon. As far az Dany goes her visions were in the House of the Undying in Quarth.

As far as the Targs prophetic dreams do we actually know if Bloodraven had them? As far as i could tell he is a greenseer who plugs into the weirnet for information on the PAST. He can also Warg into animals like crows to spy on the present, am i missing where he see's the future?

I think some people are mixing up weirwood powers

Greenseers- wiernet looking into past. (Bloodraven, bran)

Wargs- controlling animals (starks, varamyr, bloodraven)

Greenseer- see's the future in "greendreams"(jojen)

I could be wrong about all this though.

Okay, guess I missed the part where they differentiated between "Greenseer" and "Greenseers." When did that happen? Also, BR is called 'the last greenseer' (no "s"), so shouldn't he be able to greensee? This paragraph is so ridiculous.

Regardless, he entered Bran's dreams, and influenced them quite strongly. Something drew him there. Maybe he doesn't have the same type of "greendreams" that Jojen has, but I'm pretty sure he didn't find Bran by accident.

Actually, a warg bounds with wolves specifically, whereas skinchangers can bound to any animal such as crows, eagles, bears,etc.

Sorry for any misspelling, it's late and I'm tucked in.

Sweet dreams, guys.

(I think you mean bonds, not bounds)

Again, I think this is redundant nomenclature. Here ya go:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Skinchanger

[skins7778]

Okay, guess I missed the part where they differentiated between "Greenseer" and "Greenseers." When did that happen? Also, BR is called 'the last greenseer' (no "s"), so shouldn't he be able to greensee? This paragraph is so ridiculous.

Regardless, he entered Bran's dreams, and influenced them quite strongly. Something drew him there. Maybe he doesn't have the same type of "greendreams" that Jojen has, but I'm pretty sure he didn't find Bran by accident.

(I think you mean bonds, not bounds)

Again, I think this is redundant nomenclature. Here ya go:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Skinchanger

Oh geez i just noticed the second "greenseer" i meant greendreams (greendreamer?).

I forgot about bloodraven going into brans dreams as the three eyed crow.

[kissdbyfire]

(I think you mean bonds, not bounds)

Again, I think this is redundant nomenclature. Here ya go:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Skinchanger

Well, I did say I was typing in bed, and I did apologise for any possible spelling mistakes. That said, I don't think this was one such. I read it in at the Citadel (http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Concordance/Entry/Wargs_and_Skinchangers/), and there you can find a link to an interview (http://web.archive.org/web/20010627095925/http://www.scifi.com/transcripts/2000/georgerrmartin.html) where GRRM say:

"A warg is bound to a wolf. Skinchanger is a more general term. All wargs are skinchangers, but not all skinchangers are wargs."

Wargs and skinchangers are not the same thing. :-)

[kissdbyfire]

Can't edit the post again... So, yeah, spelling mistake above: there's an 's' missing, it should be 'GRRM SAYS'.

[FanTasy]

In answer to the original post: it seems Bloodraven and/or the Children of the Forest certainly have plans with Bran. I'm not sure of what they want, but what disturbs me is that there is never specific talk between Bran, the Children and Bloodraven about to what goal Bran is 'trained'. For Bran his objective seems clear: he wants to fly if he can't walk. He came to meet the three eyed crow because he hoped he could walk again.

The objective of Bloodraven / the Children of the Forest with Bran is unclear. It could be just altruistic that they teach and enable him to fly, but the set-up for having seeers linked to a tree has to be more than that, in my opinion.

Interestingly there is another bloodraven at the Wall. Lord Mormont's raven. In the first books he was described as greedily asking for corn. In ADWD he still does so, but he seems to want blood also. He picks so violently at the hand that feeds him the corn that he breaks skin (for instance with Sam) and Jon says when he feeds him he has to wear a protective glove. And when Sam meets Jon to hear his instructions for taking Maester Aemon and Dalla's son away, the raven after being fed corn says: 'Blood!'. In this scene it is not a word he picked up from a sentence spoken, he seems to ask for blood.

In an earlier post in another thread I wrote that I think that Bloodraven could be using this raven, to spy on Mormont and later Jon - or to help.

[kissdbyfire]

First of all, I think Lord Bloodraven is a most interesting character. I don’t know what his ‘end-game’ is, nor exactly what is his link to the CotF, only that there is one – and a very strong one.

At one point, Leaf says this to Bran:

Most of him has gone into the tree,” explained the singer Meera called Leaf. “He has lived beyond his mortal span, and yet he lingers. For us, for you, for the realms of men. Only a little strength remains in his flesh. He has a thousand eyes and one, but there is much to watch. One day you will know.

To me, that suggests he is not an evil entity who wants to turn Bran into some ‘dark overlord’.

In both “The Sworn Sword” and “The Mystery Knight”, there are several mentions to Lord Bloodraven ‘having one thousand eyes and one’.

In “The Sworn Sword”, Egg (Aegon V) is 10 years old (born around 199/200 AL). So, events in “The Sworn Sword” take place in 209/210 AL. According to the Wiki, Lord Bloodraven was born in 175 AL (I personally think this may be a bit off; I think he was born a one or two years before that because GRRM says he was 21 when the Battle of the Redgrass Field occurred in a SSM – but it doesn’t make much of a difference). Since we don’t know the exact months, let’s say, for argument’s sake that Brynden Rivers was indeed born in 175 AL.

Thanks to @Errant Bard we have an amazing and detailed timeline, which can be found here: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/31411-global-timeline/

From that timeline we learn that events in ADwD take place in 301/302; i.e., Lord Bloodraven is ‘now’ roughly 127 years old.

The Battle of the Redgrass Field ended the Blackfyre Rebellion in 196 AL.

He did carry a Valyrian steel sword named ‘Black Sister’, but his weapon of choice, the one he excels with was a white weirwood longbow – he wielded this bow during the Blackfyre Rebellion, and he even had a ‘squad’ of longbow men called The Raven’s Teeth. This could mean a very early connection with the CotF. Or not, I know. I’m only saying it could.

There’s too much we don’t know about him, unfortunately. Especially what happened between when he was Hand of the King to being thrown in a dungeon and sent to the Night’s Watch (?), and later becoming LC, and joining the weirwood and the CotF.

My point here is, he’s been referred to as ‘having one thousand eyes and one’ at least since 209/210, i.e., for almost a century. This is not something that started when he ‘joined’ with the weirwood in the CotF’s cave.

What’s happening on the Isle of Faces? What’s the deal with the Green Men? Raventree Hall is in the Riverlands, same as the God’s Eye and High Heart. Brynden Rivers’ mother was a Blackwood; could he have had contact with the Ghost of High Heart? Could this have been his ‘first contact’ with the CotF? Or, did the Ghost of High Heart have any part in how Lord Bloodraven’s future unfolded?

There’re too many questions, it’s all speculation. But I think it’s safe to assume that his connection to the CotF, to the Old Gods, to the weirwoods and their ‘magical’ or supernatural role comes from way before he became ‘the’ 3EC.

The other point I wanted to make in this very convoluted post is, if he is preparing Bran to be his ‘replacement’, I don’t think Bran will necessarily become linked to the weirwood from the get-go.

My apologies if this post doesn't make much sense... I wrote it in a hurry and couldn't revise it properly.

:huh:

[Black Crow]

I think that this is a promising line of thought, and will just add a couple of points. We know absolutely nothing about how Bloodraven first became Lord Commander of the Nights Watch and then disappeared without a trace - or seemingly for that matter anybody noticing - until he turns up in the cave.

This would strongly suggest that his defection (for want of a better term) was pre-arranged and that he joined the Children because it was time.

Secondly, as I've just posted on another thread, the similarity between his own disappearance and that of Benjen Stark's seems quite striking.

[kissdbyfire]

I think that this is a promising line of thought, and will just add a couple of points. We know absolutely nothing about how Bloodraven first became Lord Commander of the Nights Watch and then disappeared without a trace - or seemingly for that matter anybody noticing - until he turns up in the cave.

This would strongly suggest that his defection (for want of a better term) was pre-arranged and that he joined the Children because it was time.

Secondly, as I've just posted on another thread, the similarity between his own disappearance and that of Benjen Stark's seems quite striking.

Yes, there's much we need to know about Bloodraven... I'm very curious to see if he's going to make an appearance in "The She-Wolves of Winterfell", or in any of the next installments of the "Dunk & Egg" stories. I've always assumed for some reason - either because it popped up in my mind randomly as is so often the case or because I've read something somewhere - that he went to the Wall after being thrown in the dungeon in KL, and that his imprisonment had something to do with the tragedy at Summerhall... No idea if the timeline is even possible, to be honest.

When Arya meets The Ghost of High Heart, she talks specifically about Summerhall. I don't recall whether she (GHH) mentions Bloodraven then.

I'll re-read that bit, now I'm really curious...

:eek:

[Pliskin]

Yes, there's much we need to know about Bloodraven... I'm very curious to see if he's going to make an appearance in "The She-Wolves of Winterfell", or in any of the next installments of the "Dunk & Egg" stories. I've always assumed for some reason - either because it popped up in my mind randomly as is so often the case or because I've read something somewhere - that he went to the Wall after being thrown in the dungeon in KL, and that his imprisonment had something to do with the tragedy at Summerhall... No idea if the timeline is even possible, to be honest.

No, the tragedy of Summerhall happened way after that Egg freed Bloodraven from the dungeons. Egg died at Summerhall.

[kissdbyfire]

No, the tragedy of Summerhall happened way after that Egg freed Bloodraven from the dungeons. Egg died at Summerhall.

Cheers. I knew Egg died at Summerhall, and his son too (or sons?), but didn't connect the dots regarding the timeline. Now, thinking about it, it makes sense... Because Rhaegar was born on the same day of the tragedy, wasn't he? So, yeah, it makes sense that Bloodraven was gone by then. I reckon I wasn't paying attention to what I was typing. :bowdown:

[Sand Snake No. 9]

I think that this is a promising line of thought, and will just add a couple of points. We know absolutely nothing about how Bloodraven first became Lord Commander of the Nights Watch and then disappeared without a trace - or seemingly for that matter anybody noticing - until he turns up in the cave.

This would strongly suggest that his defection (for want of a better term) was pre-arranged and that he joined the Children because it was time.

Secondly, as I've just posted on another thread, the similarity between his own disappearance and that of Benjen Stark's seems quite striking.

I calculated that Bloodraven was 57 years old when he was sent to the wall, after a good long time in the black cells. BR wasn't as strong as his brothers, so I imagine that he couldn't have lasted too long in the Night's Watch. My guess is that when he felt that his "mortal span" was about to end he found the COTF -- or they found him -- and he joined the trees. I don't think he "deserted" in the conventional way.

I also think that Aegon, who loved his brother Aemon very much, may have sent BR to the Wall with Aemon to protect Aemon, considering that BR spent most of his life protecting Targs.

[JP Dayne]

answering to the OP, read D+E before ADWD, and at no moment BR seemed BAD to me

people just like to read too much into things

MOST of the time

guess that's martin's fault =D

he seemed like a man that gets the job done. a little apathetic. definetly cold.

wont say I'm a fan of his because it doesn't seem reasonable to me WHY would he forsake his life to a freaking tree.

maybe with more answers in the future I might change my mind, but with the info so far... meh

[skins7778]

answering to the OP, read D+E before ADWD, and at no moment BR seemed BAD to me

people just like to read too much into things

MOST of the time

guess that's martin's fault =D

he seemed like a man that gets the job done. a little apathetic. definetly cold.

wont say I'm a fan of his because it doesn't seem reasonable to me WHY would he forsake his life to a freaking tree.

maybe with more answers in the future I might change my mind, but with the info so far... meh

The problem is we dont know how long he stayed on the wall. We know he rose to lord commander so I assume he was there for awhile. I always assumed when he became old and frail he journeyed North to the cave instead of just dying at the wall. Who knows maybe he was led there by another 3 eyed crow and had a coldhands escort.

[Black Crow]

The real trouble is his anonymity. Nobody on the Wall seems to know anything about him apart from Aemon who refers to him once, very casually. As has been said on other threads some time ago surely the disappearance of a Lord Commander should have excited a little interest. The fact it doesn't and that Aemon only mentions him as an example of how a convict may rise to be a commander, suggests first that it all happened a very long time ago and that Aemon knew there was some purpose to his disappearance - that's not to say that he knew what that purpose was, but rather that Bloodraven simply told him something along the lines of "I'm going out now, I may be some time..."

[Ser Lepus]

The real trouble is his anonymity. Nobody on the Wall seems to know anything about him apart from Aemon who refers to him once, very casually. As has been said on other threads some time ago surely the disappearance of a Lord Commander should have excited a little interest. The fact it doesn't and that Aemon only mentions him as an example of how a convict may rise to be a commander, suggests first that it all happened a very long time ago and that Aemon knew there was some purpose to his disappearance - that's not to say that he knew what that purpose was, but rather that Bloodraven simply told him something along the lines of "I'm going out now, I may be some time..."

Bloodraven may have been an stubborn old man that insisted in riding with the rangers despite his old age, and when one day he didn´t come back everybody said something like "it was bound to happen, he was too old for that"...

[skins7778]

Bloodraven may have been an stubborn old man that insisted in riding with the rangers despite his old age, and when one day he didn´t come back everybody said something like "it was bound to happen, he was too old for that"...

The problem with that was the fact he was Lord Commander. I find it hard to believe he just disappeared and there wasnt a massive search. It would also be in the recent enough history to be mentioned sometime in the last 5 books.

[tze]

The problem with that was the fact he was Lord Commander. I find it hard to believe he just disappeared and there wasnt a massive search. It would also be in the recent enough history to be mentioned sometime in the last 5 books.

Bloodraven was a sorcerer even before he joined up with the Children. I just assumed he faked his death using a glamour, a la the Rattleshirt fiasco, since we know he could make such things (it's a pretty safe bet that we saw him using one during The Mystery Knight). That way, "Bloodraven" would be lying dead and buried, while a disguised Bloodraven heads out to meet up with the Children, with nobody the wiser.

[FanTasy]

The problem with that was the fact he was Lord Commander. I find it hard to believe he just disappeared and there wasnt a massive search. It would also be in the recent enough history to be mentioned sometime in the last 5 books.

Exactly! Hmph ... why didn't Jon when he become Lord Commander get a nice Black Book, like the White Book Jaime 'inherited' when he took command of the Kingsguard, with all the relevant information in it. I was expecting a scene like that, but no :devil:

[Black Crow]

Comes back to my "Captain Oates quotation"; he quietly went out there knowing he wasn't coming back, simply telling those who needed to know that it was time, that they shouldn't come looking for him but just pass the word to elect a new Lord Commander. And if anybody asked it was none of their damned business.