What will become of the Lannister siblings

[1234567]

"He let them have their byplay; it was all for his benefit, he knew."

Actually I thought it was part of Tyrion's justifying what he is doing to himself, because he know it is wrong: As in they are play acting so that he'll accept their decision.

The consummation part seems really important for Tywin and Tywin thinks so little of his son and his base lusts that it would never for a moment cross his mind that Tyrion wouldn't bed her immediately. I actually think Tywin's view of Tyrion is worse than any poster on this or any other thread. He seems to think his son is a debauched monster!

[tearloch]

What I don't get is if it is a social taboo to bed a girl of Sansa's age, then why is her "flowering" such a big deal, especially to Cersei and Joffrey...it seems to me that the "woman flowered" supercedes age in these matters. Would it have been socially unacceptable for Joffrey to bed her? If so, then why would Cersei have been so pleased when she discovered the bloody sheets?

Also, something to note, is what is the one thing that Tywin has explicitely forbidden Tyrion from doing? Prostitutes. I kind of see his infatuation with prostitutes as a defiant child...add that in with his constantly being told his whole life that he is a monster...and it fits perfectly with his constant involvements with prostitutes.

[Silverin]

You left out a crucial passage, which I quoted in my post and already spoke on. All that talk of other marriages for either Tyrion or Sansa is total BS from Tywin and Kevan to offer Tyrion the illusion of having a choice:

"He let them have their byplay; it was all for his benefit, he knew."

Or is it your assertion that by "for his benefit" Tyrion actually means, and incredibly, believes, that Tywin is racking his brains for a way to work this all out that has Tyrion's benefit as priority one?

I don't think that was that crucial part since after that for a long time he is defying tywin, he sais he doesn't want it.

It still doesn't change the fact that he agreed way before the "You will marry Sansa Stark" line, which means that wasn't an order.

And doesn't change that he agreed because of Winterfell.

I think what you posted was just he let them say what they wanted, but neither Tywin neither Kevan threatened him. He was sarcastic of course, he understood that they are not persuading him because they want good for him, but because they want good for the Lannister house. They were trying to persuade him accepet, pointing out the benefits to him.

EDIT: And he saw those without being threatened, because he really was charmed by Winterfell.

If they wanted to threaten him they could said it so. he agrees it like this:

Tyrion Lannister, Lord Protector of Winterfell. The prospect gave him a queer chill. “Very good, Father,”

Not like: "ohm what a poor fellow I am I have no choice, father will beat me and won't let me off. I have no choice I have to do it. it is so unfair to that girl, trying to steal away her inheritence, and I will seem like a bad bad man again despite I totally don't want this marriage since there is nothing beneficial to me. In fact it is way worse to me than to Sansa since everyone will blame and mock me. But I will play the evil guy so I can save the young innocent maiden from a worse fate. Yes I will be her shining knight I can at least do that much to her. "Very good, Father"

[Rickon is FIERCE]

Actually I thought it was part of Tyrion's justifying what he is doing to himself, because he know it is wrong: As in they are play acting so that he'll accept their decision.

Not exactly sure how that would work... How does him thinking Tywin and Kevan are bullshitting so he'll accept their decision (which I think is the case) mean he is justifying his actions to himself? Maybe I'm reading you wrong...

The consummation part seems really important for Tywin and Tywin thinks so little of his son and his base lusts that it would never for a moment cross his mind that Tyrion wouldn't bed her immediately. I actually think Tywin's view of Tyrion is worse than any poster on this or any other thread. He seems to think his son is a debauched monster!

True. Interesting considering Shae in Tywin's bed later...

[brashcandy]

What I don't get is if it is a social taboo to bed a girl of Sansa's age, then why is her "flowering" such a big deal, especially to Cersei and Joffrey...it seems to me that the "woman flowered" supercedes age in these matters. Would it have been socially unacceptable for Joffrey to bed her? If so, then why would Cersei have been so pleased when she discovered the bloody sheets?

Also, something to note, is what is the one thing that Tywin has explicitely forbidden Tyrion from doing? Prostitutes. I kind of see his infatuation with prostitutes as a defiant child...add that in with his constantly being told his whole life that he is a monster...and it fits perfectly with his constant involvements with prostitutes.

I don't know if it's so different from modern perspectives actually. I think it's the same thing like when girl get their periods, your mom says "oh, you're becoming a woman now" and you kinda have to have that talk. It doesn't mean that suddenly you're eligible for sex, it just means that you're crossed a very symbolic threshold in your life.

As for why Cersei and the others saw it as important - I think it was because it meant she could get pregnant. This is certainly why Tywin advocates the union - he knows Sansa is too young for sex, but the point is that she can now get pregnant, thereby ensuring that her child is a Lannister and his power strengthened.

[1234567]

What I don't get is if it is a social taboo to bed a girl of Sansa's age, then why is her "flowering" such a big deal, especially to Cersei and Joffrey...it seems to me that the "woman flowered" supercedes age in these matters. Would it have been socially unacceptable for Joffrey to bed her? If so, then why would Cersei have been so pleased when she discovered the bloody sheets?

This is a ruddy good point. GRRM's little bit on Westeros marriages summed it up brilliantly, but can I find the link for it! Basically it seemed to say that a maid is a girl who has flowered and as soon as she has flowered she can be wedded and bedded, but although a girl can be married as soon as she has flowered, it is considered perverse not to wait a couple of years to bed her as girls who have children at 12 /13 have a very high death rate in child birth.

To give a modern example. That guy who was 51 who married the 16 year old. Legal: yes. Socially acceptable: Less so, in fact considered icky, with the man being seen in the more negative light. Indeed there are lots of satires from the Victorian era that poked tremendous amount of fun at the old man and the young girl marriage.

[Alexia]

What I don't get is if it is a social taboo to bed a girl of Sansa's age, then why is her "flowering" such a big deal, especially to Cersei and Joffrey...it seems to me that the "woman flowered" supercedes age in these matters.

Cersei isn't "so pleased" when Sansa flowers. She calls her in for a breakfast and gives her a little feminine advice. And flowering is always a big deal for any girl. GRRM indicated that in the distant past of Westeros, flowering immediately transforms a girl into a woman but that is no longer the case anymore.

Tyrion's reaction to her age very strongly indicates social taboo. Not to mention other characters. Yes, it would have been socially unacceptable for Joff to bed her at 12 too. She is too young -- the Vale lords promptly started making fun of her when she tried to tell them that she wasn't a child.

Also, something to note, is what is the one thing that Tywin has explicitely forbidden Tyrion from doing? Prostitutes. I kind of see his infatuation with prostitutes as a defiant child...add that in with his constantly being told his whole life that he is a monster...and it fits perfectly with his constant involvements with prostitutes.

Well... Tywin didn't ban prostitutes before Alayaya and the threats against Tommen. Near as I can tell, Tywin wanted Tyrion to be more discreet about his whoring (like Tywin himself is) but doesn't actually care whether or not he patronizes prostitutes.

[Rickon is FIERCE]

I don't think that was that crucial part since after that for a long time he is defying tywin, he sais he doesn't want it.

It still doesn't change the fact that he agreed way before the "You will marry Sansa Stark" line, which means that wasn't an order.

And doesn't change that he agreed because of Winterfell.

I think what you posted was just he let them say what they wanted, but neither Tywin neither Kevan threatened him. He was sarcastic of course, he understood that they are not persuading him because they want good for him, but because they want good for the Lannister house. They were trying to persuade him accepet, pointing out the benefits to him.

EDIT: And he saw those without being threatened, because he really was charmed by Winterfell.

If they wanted to threaten him they could said it so. he agrees it like this:

Tyrion Lannister, Lord Protector of Winterfell. The prospect gave him a queer chill. “Very good, Father,”

Not like: "ohm what a poor fellow I am I have no choice, father will beat me and won't let me off. I have no choice I have to do it. it is so unfair to that girl, trying to steal away her inheritence, and I will seem like a bad bad man again despite I totally don't want this marriage since there is nothing beneficial to me. In fact it is way worse to me than to Sansa since everyone will blame and mock me. But I will play the evil guy so I can save the young innocent maiden from a worse fate. Yes I will be her shining knight I can at least do that much to her. "Very good, Father"

I myself have posted that he liked the prospect of being Lord of Winterfell. That still doesn't mean he had other marriage options. Him agreeing before the order doesn't make the order not an order. Sure, Tywin could have given him an outright order from the get-go, presumably he thought the persuasion tactic would go over better. He doesn't enjoy bantering with Tyrion, I expect he hoped to avoid it by giving Tyrion the illusion of choice. Perhaps he even feared Tyrion might make a stand for once, complicating everything.

Sooo, Tyrion lets them play their little BS game of giving him options, then plays along, like a good little boy, "Very good, Father." (When have you ever seen Tyrion talk to Tywin like that before?), happy to at least have the prospect of being Lord of Winterfell ahead of him.

[1234567]

Not exactly sure how that would work... How does him thinking Tywin and Kevan are bullshitting so he'll accept their decision (which I think is the case) mean he is justifying his actions to himself? Maybe I'm reading you wrong...

Sorry I am crap at explaining things today. What I mean is that Tyrion thinks that they are bullshitting about Lancel to make himself feel better about the decision he has made. As I stated before, Tyrion up until this point was the person who stood up for the cripples, bastards and broken things. I think this is where he finally gives in to temptation and tries to justify it to himself. As I've said previously Tyrion can be delusional about his own choices and ramifications.

When he feels upset in the litter, that this is the wife they gave for all the rest of my life, and she hates me, he completely fails to remember that he had any active agency in creating the situation he is in. In fact he is acting as if he is in the situation Sansa is in.

True. Interesting considering Shae in Tywin's bed later...

Tywin's love of sexual sadism is one of the reasons his children are so mucked up. Again the only evidence I have for this is his other actions such as the Tysha incident, but I think Tywin knows damn well that demanding that a girl that young is not normally done and gets some sort of personal kick about the affront this will be to the Starks.

[Rickon is FIERCE]

Cersei isn't "so pleased" when Sansa flowers. She calls her in for a breakfast and gives her a little feminine advice.

I read her displeasure not over Sansa's flowering, per se, but Sansa's reaction to her flowering- attempting to burn the proof- indicating her GREAT fear of and abhorrence to wedding and bedding Cersei's darling son Joffrey. The scene begins with an annoyed Cersei asking, "What did you think you would accomplish doing all that?" (Paraphrased.)

Tyrion's reaction to her age very strongly indicates social taboo. Not to mention other characters. Yes, it would have been socially unacceptable for Joff to bed her at 12 too. She is too young -- the Vale lords promptly started making fun of her when she tried to tell them that she wasn't a child.

We've been all over this but I think it's b/c Martin is somewhat ambiguous about this, as despite his words in that interview it just doesn't always hold true in the writing. The fact is there are plenty of folks in the books who don't bat an eye at the idea of bedding a young girl, and they aren't all evil characters, either. Or at the very least, if people have objections, they surely don't voice them.

Well... Tywin didn't ban prostitutes before Alayaya and the threats against Tommen. Near as I can tell, Tywin wanted Tyrion to be more discreet about his whoring (like Tywin himself is) but doesn't actually care whether or not he patronizes prostitutes.

Ohhh... I disagree. Tywin hypocritically has a BIG problem with whoring, way back to his father's mistress. He gets on Tyrion for being indiscreet, yes, but also for the whoring in and of itself.

[Silverin]

I myself have posted that he liked the prospect of being Lord of Winterfell. That still doesn't mean he had other marriage options.

he had! read the text. tywin sais if he does not acceot Sansa he will find someone else. He mentioned Lollys as well for an example. Tyrion had another options. Not as highborne as Sansa that is true but tywin sais he finds him someone else if he doesn'T want Sansa.

Him agreeing before the order doesn't make the order not an order.

Um..I don't get why you say that,. He AGREED to it way before! It would be like I have a discussion with my father why I should go to universuty and I agree with him, that indeed I should go. then he sais ok you will go to university. It is not an order, he doesn1t force me, he just simply closing a discussion stating a fact. And since I agreed myself to go to uni I don't go because he said that at the end. I go becuase I AGREED to go, seeing the benefits myself.

Sure, Tywin could have given him an outright order from the get-go, presumably he thought the persuasion tactic would go over better. He doesn't enjoy bantering with Tyrion, I expect he hoped to avoid it by giving Tyrion the illusion of choice. Perhaps he even feared Tyrion might make a stand for once, complicating everything.

He didn't needed to threaten tyrion because 1. he could still marry her of to lancel if tyrion refuses. 2. tyrion accepts it because he thinks it is good for HIM. he never thinks if he doesnt1 accpet ths or that will happen. etc... tyrion actually AGREES with Tywin in the why this marriage is good for him. He does not need to be threatened, he is not forced at all.

Sooo, Tyrion lets them play their little BS game of giving him options, then plays along, like a good little boy, "Very good, Father." (When have you ever seen Tyrion talk to Tywin like that before?), happy to at least have the prospect of being Lord of Winterfell ahead of him.

Actually tyrion and tywin are similar and when it comes to decisions they often share similar opinions. For example Tywin acknowledged tyrion' work as Hand and even said he would have done the same. And there is a reason it is pointed out that tyrion is Tywin's true son, because he is the most similar to him. And I don't get why you say he played it along. We see his thoughts we dn't see there any, ok I will play part. When Tywin pointed out he could get Winterfell tyrion accepted tywins offer since he wanted Winterfell.

EDIT: Althugh Tywin can be rather ruthless, but he can be reasonable as well. He don't always need to threaten people to got them agree with him. Threathening is not his only weapon, he can reason as well. And that is what happened here. He talked over tyrion. he didn't needed to threaten him or give him any ultimatum. He made tyrion WANT this marriage himself.

EDIT: ANd as I said after the let them bullshitting tyrion opposes tywin a couple of times, and sais he does not want his marriage,. But when tywin sais you can get Winterfell he agrees to it.

[1234567]

Ohhh... I disagree. Tywin hypocritically has a BIG problem with whoring, way back to his father's mistress. He gets on Tyrion for being indiscreet, yes, but also for the whoring in and of itself.

Exactly. We don't know much about Tyrion's life in between Tysha and AGOT. However I get the impression that Tyrion's whoring mongering is common knowledge. Tywin feels this embarrasses him and the family, so threatens him. I don't imagine this is the first time a threat has been issued to Tyrion from his father over this issue. When they were on the Rock it maybe different, and Tywin gave him more slack, but now Tyrion is Master of Coin and on social view to the KL audience. He can't do something Tywin perceives as an affront to the family.

Tywin I think sees Tyrion's whore monger as being like his own father, who was a figure of fun. I think Tywin would have collapsed if he realised even his family viewed Tyrion as Tywin small writ.

Edit: Had to change a Tyrin to Tyrion.

[Rickon is FIERCE]

Sorry I am crap at explaining things today. What I mean is that Tyrion thinks that they are bullshitting about Lancel to make himself feel better about the decision he has made. As I stated before, Tyrion up until this point was the person who stood up for the cripples, bastards and broken things. I think this is where he finally gives in to temptation and tries to justify it to himself. As I've said previously Tyrion can be delusional about his own choices and ramifications.

Ah, I see. I can understand how you would make that deduction. However I think this:

When he feels upset in the litter, that this is the wife they gave for all the rest of my life, and she hates me, he completely fails to remember that he had any active agency in creating the situation he is in. In fact he is acting as if he is in the situation Sansa is in.

leans toward my interpretation, that he does, in fact, feel like he was trapped in the marriage, too.

[1234567]

leans toward my interpretation, that he does, in fact, feel like he was trapped in the marriage, too.

I think he realized the marriage was a major mistake the instant she didn't kneel. I think he honestly believed that it would all be fine in the end. The "never" comment however was I think when the true reality of the situation hit him for the first time. I completely agree that he feels trapped, but I think he has started going into victim mode again.

[Rickon is FIERCE]

he had! read the text. tywin sais if he does not acceot Sansa he will find someone else. He mentioned Lollys as well for an example.

I've read the text, and I believe Tyrion thinks these offers are total bullshit, as I've said.

Um..I don't get why you say that,. He AGREED to it way before! It would be like I have a discussion with my father why I should go to universuty and I agree with him, that indeed I should go. then he sais ok you will go to university. It is not an order, he doesn1t force me, he just simply closing a discussion stating a fact. And since I agreed myself to go to uni I don't go because he said that at the end. I go becuase I AGREED to go, seeing the benefits myself.

I don't disagree that Tyrion feels he will benefit (via Winterfell) from the marriage. In fact I explicitely said that. Tywin's statement at the end of the chapter is to be the final word, the period on a decision made, an assertion that his will is law, whether Tyrion likes/agrees with it or not. I don't see the point of the statement if Tywin fears no apprehension or disagreement on Tyrion's end. He doesn't say, "Ok, so, if you feel good about it, let's go ahead with it." He says "You're doing this, and soon."

He does not need to be threatened, he is not forced at all.

Not technically, with a knife at his throat, but Tyrion being who he is and where he is in the world, he doesn't have any other attractive options, nor does he openly go against Dad. I've spelled all this out in other posts, but you probably interpret all of that differently, so I won't bother to get into it again, considering we won't change each other's minds.

And I don't get why you say he played it along. We see his thoughts we dn't see there any, ok I will play part.

Doesn't need to be there. "Very good, Father," says it for me. I also don't think Martin needed to throw that qualifier in when Tyrion threatened to rape Tommen, either, I knew it was a bluff, but George felt it necessary to put that in there to keep people from thinking Tyrion meant it (although that's clearly happened anyway). Not that I'm interested in getting back into that discussion, either...no mind-changing's gonna happen there on either side.

When Tywin pointed out he could get Winterfell tyrion accepted tywins offer since he wanted Winterfell.

This is a point I can agree with you on. The mention of being Lord of Winterfell clearly is a game-changer for Tyrion. But like I said, just cuz he agrees with Tywin's decision here doesn't mean it wasn't Tywin's decision.

Althugh Tywin can be rather ruthless, but he can be reasonable as well. He don't always need to threaten people to got them agree with him. Threathening is not his only weapon, he can reason as well.

I don't recall Tywin ever "reasoning" with any of his enemies. The Red Wedding is more his style. And fear/threats are how he keeps his allies in line, too. He mentions the Reyne's and Castamere's to Tyrion in reference to the Westerling's (seeming) desertion in Robb's marriage and says, in essence, "I'm not worried about them, they know what they've got coming if they defy me."

[Rickon is FIERCE]

I think he honestly believed that it would all be fine in the end. The "never" comment however was I think when the true reality of the situation hit him for the first time.

Totally agree.

[brashcandy]

Ok so this is an honest question concerning Tyrion: Does he really want a family? Does he really desire the comforts of home and hearth? I don't know if he expresses his feelings on this one way or another (maybe he did once with Tysha) but he seems now to be in love with power very much like Cersei. Forgetting his looks for the moment, I don't think he could have made a good husband on this count for Sansa, who definitely desires a traditional family life.

[Silverin]

I've read the text, and I believe Tyrion thinks these offers are total bullshit, as I've said.

No he doesn't, he wants Shae. There was no comment from him in the text thinking this is bulshit.

Tywin's statement at the end of the chapter is to be the final word, the period on a decision made, an assertion that his will is law, whether Tyrion likes/agrees with it or not. I don't see the point of the statement if Tywin fears no apprehension or disagreement on Tyrion's end. He doesn't say, "Ok, so, if you feel good about it, let's go ahead with it." He says "You're doing this, and soon."

Tyrion already agreed. In my previos example about uni if it would have gone wrong I have no right to blame my father since I made that decision. I feel this time it is like that as well. tyrion made a decision. it is easy to blame Tywin since he is a villain you can put all the blame him, and thus whitewashing other characters etc... But this was something tyrion decided.

Not technically, with a knife at his throat, but Tyrion being who he is and where he is in the world, he doesn't have any other attractive options, nor does he openly go against Dad. I've spelled all this out in other posts, but you probably interpret all of that differently, so I won't bother to get into it again, considering we won't change each other's minds.

I still don't see any threat said to him in the text. tywin explains why he thinks it would be good for tyrion and at the end tyrion agrees. Since there was no mention of threats and tyrion doesn't think "I have no choice", "I must do what father sais", I don't put those lines in his mouth just to make him look better in that situation.

Doesn't need to be there. "Very good, Father," says it for me. I also don't think Martin needed to throw that qualifier in when Tyrion threatened to rape Tommen, either, I knew it was a bluff, but George felt it necessary to put that in there to keep people from thinking Tyrion meant it (although that's clearly happened anyway). Not that I'm interested in getting back into that discussion, either...no mind-changing's gonna happen there on either side.

If he put it there in the Tommen situation why didn't he put it here? Because this wasn't a bluff maybe? I never got that it was a bluff. I saw it as tyrion agreeing tywin. Simply as that. And why would be the reason he bluffs that he agrees to the marriage? in the Tommen situatin it had a reason. If he for example helps Sansa escape then a bluff like that would have a meaning he could say to tywin that oh damn I was so waiting for it, you know since I said it. But he doesn't do anything that would give it a meaning. Again tywin and tyrion actually rather similar and there are times when they actually agree.

This is a point I can agree with you on. The mention of being Lord of Winterfell clearly is a game-changer for Tyrion. But like I said, just cuz he agrees with Tywin's decision here doesn't mean it wasn't Tywin's decision.

It was both peoples decision. it was tyrions too. it wasn't an ultimatum. If tyrion does not agree, tywin would marry sansa off to Lancel. They would need time for the bedding but it wouldn't change his plans greatly. He gave an offer to tyrion, it would be better for Tywin if tyrion is the husband but even if he declines tywin has other candidates. So no, there tyrion made a decision, he was no way forced.

I don't recall Tywin ever "reasoning" with any of his enemies. The Red Wedding is more his style. And fear/threats are how he keeps his allies in line, too. He mentions the Reyne's and Castamere's to Tyrion in reference to the Westerling's (seeming) desertion in Robb's marriage and says, in essence, "I'm not worried about them, they know what they've got coming if they defy me."

Tyrion is not his enemy. he is more like a pawn, his son, he even acknowledges his abilities. And he was reasoning with him there. Again I don't see any threat in the text. And as long as it is not there I won't pretend it is, just to make tyrion seem less guilty, and put all the blame to only Tywin. He made a decision there. According to the text he wasn't forced, he was given an offer, he came to like (Winterfell), and accepted it.

[Alexia]

Ohhh... I disagree. Tywin hypocritically has a BIG problem with whoring, way back to his father's mistress. He gets on Tyrion for being indiscreet, yes, but also for the whoring in and of itself.

Actually, that is one thing he doesn't do. If you read the text carefully, you see that Tywin has a problem with elevating whores above their station or developing inappropriate attachments to whores. This is something that his father did (the mistress) and Tyrion did (Tysha), from Tywin's perspective. He thinks that Tyrion should be strictly utilitarian about his whoring, no flaunting one at court, no keeping one as a mistress, no falling in love with one and no marrying one. On my first read, I thought Tywin was a flaming hypocrite when I got to the Shae scene and then I reread carefully and realized that he was actually pretty consistent all along. He doesn't ban Tyrion from patronizing whores until the situation with threatening to rape Tommen over one, and at that point he decides to arrange for him to get a wife.

Anyway, we're really going around in circles now with no real hope of convincing each other of anything. Aren't the other Lannisters worth discussion? What is Cersei going to do now? Plenty of disagreement on my "Jaime is dead" theory, well, how will he escape? And what is going to happen when Tyrion meets Day? Will he fall in love with her? Will she fall in love with him? Will he be one of her betrayers? What about how he sold Casterly Rock to his mercenaries? C'mon, let's speculate!! :lol:

[Hound's She-wolf]

@ Brashcandy

I don't remember reading anything that would make me think he does want a traditional family life. The three things he seems most interested in are reading, screwing and drinking.

Most posters seem to think he's looking for love in whores, but I don't know what I think he'd do if he actually found love.