What will become of the Lannister siblings

[Alexia]

Ok so this is an honest question concerning Tyrion: Does he really want a family? Does he really desire the comforts of home and hearth? I don't know if he expresses his feelings on this one way or another (maybe he did once with Tysha) but he seems now to be in love with power very much like Cersei. Forgetting his looks for the moment, I don't think he could have made a good husband on this count for Sansa, who definitely desires a traditional family life.

I actually think Tyrion did want a family with a loving and pretty wife (like Sansa, except one who was genuinely pleased to please her husband) and a bunch of children, while he goes out and does his politics and comes home to have her rub his feet (honestly, like his relationship with Shae). I see him as very much longing for a normal family life that he thinks he can never have. One of his problems is that I don't think he knows what a healthy relationship between a man and a woman looks like, since his mother died before he could observe his parents' relationship and Tywin permanently warped his ability to relate to or understand women.

[voodooqueen126]

I actually think Tyrion did want a family with a loving and pretty wife (like Sansa, except one who was genuinely pleased to please her husband) and a bunch of children, while he goes out and does his politics and comes home to have her rub his feet (honestly, like his relationship with Shae). I see him as very much longing for a normal family life that he thinks he can never have. One of his problems is that I don't think he knows what a healthy relationship between a man and a woman looks like, since his mother died before he could observe his parents' relationship and Tywin permanently warped his ability to relate to or understand women.

Doesn't he fantasize/feel incredibly depressed when he watches the Fossoway and his pregnant wife at Joffrey's wedding.

[iamthedave]

I actually think Tyrion did want a family with a loving and pretty wife (like Sansa, except one who was genuinely pleased to please her husband) and a bunch of children, while he goes out and does his politics and comes home to have her rub his feet (honestly, like his relationship with Shae). I see him as very much longing for a normal family life that he thinks he can never have. One of his problems is that I don't think he knows what a healthy relationship between a man and a woman looks like, since his mother died before he could observe his parents' relationship and Tywin permanently warped his ability to relate to or understand women.

What little we know of seems to suggest his brief relationship with Tysha was healthy and 'normal' so he does know what it looks and even feels like. The issue is that he feels he can never have that, as you say. Back then I think he would have gladly left aside the politics and such. He was just a kid finding his way in the world.

The bitter, angry Tyrion of today though has made politics his bread and butter, and as we see with Shae, he can't really do without them now. He feels happier than ever when surrounded on all sides by people who hate him, with the power to contest them on equal or superior ground and an objective to accomplish. All that juggling of schemes and plans makes him feel useful, valuable and effective. Essentially, all the things Tywin tried to make him feel the opposite of.

I'm not sure what Tyrion's ideal woman would look like now. It may be that such a thing no longer exists.

[Rickon is FIERCE]

Actually, that is one thing he doesn't do. If you read the text carefully, you see that Tywin has a problem with elevating whores above their station or developing inappropriate attachments to whores. This is something that his father did (the mistress) and Tyrion did (Tysha), from Tywin's perspective. He thinks that Tyrion should be strictly utilitarian about his whoring, no flaunting one at court, no keeping one as a mistress, no falling in love with one and no marrying one. On my first read, I thought Tywin was a flaming hypocrite when I got to the Shae scene and then I reread carefully and realized that he was actually pretty consistent all along. He doesn't ban Tyrion from patronizing whores until the situation with threatening to rape Tommen over one, and at that point he decides to arrange for him to get a wife.

Anyway, we're really going around in circles now with no real hope of convincing each other of anything. Aren't the other Lannisters worth discussion? What is Cersei going to do now? Plenty of disagreement on my "Jaime is dead" theory, well, how will he escape? And what is going to happen when Tyrion meets Day? Will he fall in love with her? Will she fall in love with him? Will he be one of her betrayers? What about how he sold Casterly Rock to his mercenaries? C'mon, let's speculate!! :lol:

HERE, HERE! Indeed, let us move on, as you say, and I mentioned above, nobody's convincing anybody on this Tyrion stuff...

But just to respond to your first paragraph, I'll keep an open mind on my reread (when NaNoWriMo is over lol), b/c I was also blown away by Shae in Tywin's bed, as you say... maybe I'll conclude the same.

[Verboten]

Actually, that is one thing he doesn't do. If you read the text carefully, you see that Tywin has a problem with elevating whores above their station or developing inappropriate attachments to whores. This is something that his father did (the mistress) and Tyrion did (Tysha), from Tywin's perspective. He thinks that Tyrion should be strictly utilitarian about his whoring, no flaunting one at court, no keeping one as a mistress, no falling in love with one and no marrying one. On my first read, I thought Tywin was a flaming hypocrite when I got to the Shae scene and then I reread carefully and realized that he was actually pretty consistent all along. He doesn't ban Tyrion from patronizing whores until the situation with threatening to rape Tommen over one, and at that point he decides to arrange for him to get a wife.

Anyway, we're really going around in circles now with no real hope of convincing each other of anything. Aren't the other Lannisters worth discussion? What is Cersei going to do now? Plenty of disagreement on my "Jaime is dead" theory, well, how will he escape? And what is going to happen when Tyrion meets Day? Will he fall in love with her? Will she fall in love with him? Will he be one of her betrayers? What about how he sold Casterly Rock to his mercenaries? C'mon, let's speculate!! :lol:

Jaime can't die until Brienne kills him damnit.

[Verboten]

I mean seriously he can't die offscreen that would just be cruel

[Hound's She-wolf]

I can't believe that GRRM would kill Jaime offscreen. He's way too big a character. And he hasn't finished his redemption arc yet, heh, he hasn't even started it yet.

[brashcandy]

I think Jaime is destined for a run in with Bran. Perhaps either one will be responsible for saving the other. I assume Bran might do the saving.

Nothing would please me more if Dany goes to Westeros never having met Tyrion.

As for Cersei, I hope she heads to the Vale with Robert Strong.

[1234567]

I just can't believe Jaime would die off screen. Also the end of ADWD sets up perfectly a situation where Brienne has to re-evaluate her relationship with UnCat, Jaime has to face UnCat and explain himself regarding certain recent remarks and Jaime and Brienne finally have to look at their relationship. Also you have the AA storyline. Now Ice was tempered in water to reforge it into Oathkeeper (fitting the Nissa Nissa story). Next up if the story holds, it's meant to be a Lion. I think Jaime maybe the sacrificial Lion in this instance, but that still leaves one reforging.

[Silverin]

I just can't believe Jaime would die off screen. Also the end of ADWD sets up perfectly a situation where Brienne has to re-evaluate her relationship with UnCat, Jaime has to face UnCat and explain himself regarding certain recent remarks and Jaime and Brienne finally have to look at their relationship. Also you have the AA storyline. Now Ice was tempered in water to reforge it into Oathkeeper (fitting the Nissa Nissa story). Next up if the story holds, it's meant to be a Lion. I think Jaime maybe the sacrificial Lion in this instance, but that still leaves one reforging.

that is a good catch, Jaime being the Lion. But who will be Nissa Nissa? Again, Jaime's the Hound's and Ungregors has something to do with Sansa and Arya. maybe Nissa Nissa will be UnCat? can it be UnCat for Arya or sansa for example? Or can she be The Water? But wouldn't Jaime be both the Lion and Nissa Nissa to Brienne for example?

By the way do we know where is the other part of Ice? I remember that Jaime recieved one part and he gave it to Brienne. The other was Joffs, but where it is now? Was it ever mentioned?

This is one of my most waited storyline. Jaime, Brienne at the BwB, with gendry who is a blackshmidt and happens to be a worshipper of R'hollor, and Sandor as a gravedigger not too far away from the vale, jaime and Brieen are looking for Sansa, she in the vale, and the BwB is up to something in Riverrun and in KL.

[Hound's She-wolf]

I think Tommen has Widow's Wail.

Or, I should say, someone at KL has it so Tommen doesn't poke himself or a cat with it.

[Silverin]

I think Tommen has Widow's Wail.

Or, I should say, someone at KL has it so Tommen doesn't poke himself or a cat with it.

I hope it will be renamed to Kittenclaw.

[The Blind Eye]

I actually think Tyrion did want a family with a loving and pretty wife (like Sansa, except one who was genuinely pleased to please her husband) and a bunch of children, while he goes out and does his politics and comes home to have her rub his feet (honestly, like his relationship with Shae). I see him as very much longing for a normal family life that he thinks he can never have. One of his problems is that I don't think he knows what a healthy relationship between a man and a woman looks like, since his mother died before he could observe his parents' relationship and Tywin permanently warped his ability to relate to or understand women.

Tyrion wants what every Romantic (Era) literary man wants: to be wanted by a woman for who he is as a person. somehow i feel he has disillusioned himself into believing whores care this way about him. The good (professional) ones atleast. This may be an unintended result of him 'Sticking it to the man (Tywin)' by being an aggressive and overt whoremonger. But he really loved Tysha and thought Tysha loved him in return; and this is the status-qo he wants to reclaim with out the woman being forced into the relationship, which has been the case with everyone but the whores in his life.

To move on to the Jaime/Brienne/Catelyn situation I really believe that jaime is the destined murderer of Cerci (at Catelyn's behest to hold his oath) with Brienne's assistance to ensure the deed is done. Sansa will somehow be involved in setting up the scenario for those 3 coming together to witness Jaime strangling Cerci to death while she ventilates his lower abdomen. Or gelds him.

[1234567]

The Sword is in KL, but I wouldn't be surprised if LF is trying to get his hands on it as a symbol for the North and the Vale. I don't know if the two halves have to come together again, but Gendry's role in the whole thing seems almost inevitably to be the reforging of the sword into light bringer.

I think it is no small deal that AA is important to the Red Priests and that Thoros is nearby with his priestly magic and that Gendry's old master was one of the few people who could reforge Valayrian steel.

[The Blind Eye]

The Sword is in KL, but I wouldn't be surprised if LF is trying to get his hands on it as a symbol for the North and the Vale. I don't know if the two halves have to come together again, but Gendry's role in the whole thing seems almost inevitably to be the reforging of the sword into light bringer.

I think it is no small deal that AA is important to the Red Priests and that Thoros is nearby with his priestly magic and that Gendry's old master was one of the few people who could reforge Valayrian steel.

The Reforging of Ice at the end of the series seems a little too fairy tale ending. If it ends where the Stark family regains all it lost (sans dead people), rebuilds Winterfell to greater than before and yada yada yada happily ever after I'd be disappointed. I like the idea of Longclaw becoming the new Stark inherited sword, with out Jon wielding it, or a similarly obtained new sword/token of power. There really needs to be some kind of unchangeable and un-forgetable loss, very much like (New token of power) is a symbol of our houses strength but we used to have this massive Valyrian sword Ice that was lost during the War of the Five Kings. I like the idea of character building and story progression through loss and then new gain, not loss and regain which is a little to cookie-cutter for most heroic journey tales. Plus i think Gendry is NOT being built as a reforger of Ice but as a marriage prospect for Arya since Ned and Robert did want to join their Houses way back at the beginning, plus i think Arya and Gendry compliment each other very well.

[Ser Lepus]

Hey, it is a fantasy book! we readers deserve something cool as a reforged Ice being the sword of the new Azor-Ahai as a bone thrown at us, after al this grimdark dung ages depressing calamities happening to everybody we like

[Hound's She-wolf]

That sword was broken....

It has been reforged!

Oh, wrong series.

Anyway, I do think the two swords will be reforged by Gendry. I agree Jaime will be the one to kill Cersei- but I really like the idea that it's because she's going to burn them all, just like her real daddy tried to do before Jaime killed him. And Jaime's going to die soon after of burns and or smoke inhalation.

[Silverin]

I think Gendry being a R'hollor worshipper blacksmidt will have importance. And even if he does not reforge Ice, I do think his skills will have importance.

Kinda Off: Well it still stays in the family, best ship ever:

http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ltt7eq3qJu1qejuifo1_500.jpg

[Alexia]

I think Ice is done for, people. The Starks have one half of the sword, so hopefully they can reforge into something less tacky looking and engrave "The North Remembers" on the blade -- with a lion cub in the jaws of a direwolf. Or something like that.

[Wouter]

I don't recall Sansa commenting that people are laughing behind her back, which would be the case if it was her they were laughing at. It's Tyrion we expressly see as the butt of the jokes.

I'm pretty sure was laughed at and mocked ever since her father was imprisoned (and later executed). She mentioned a few times how people would laugh as she was beaten, and how hostile the general atmosphere was at KL, not just in the city but also among the courtiers.

By this time, would Sansa even notice if people were continue to mock her behind her back, or even in her face? She is used to it in what is an utterly hostile place to her, and the marriage itself, and the fate of her family, is a far greater source of depression to her than those few people possibly mocking her.

I think Tyrion is just projecting his feelings on those who laugh - they are probably the kind of people who would mock the "evil dwarf" anyway, Tyrion was never loved in KL. And he is probably exaggerating to some extent, too, because it feels to him like half the castle is laughing at him - no doubt some actually appreciate that he doesn't rape a 12 or 13 year old. (Now I wonder what happened on Sansa's nameday, which must have happened sometime between the Tyrion's marriage and Joffrey's marriage).

Arguably, Margaery Tyrell did more for Sansa than Tyrion did - sure, she had ulterior motives, too, and she more or less dropped Sansa after the wedding (at least she had the grace to be sad at that point, and Sansa still seems to like her as of AFFC) but then Tyrion ignored Sansa for a long time as well, while he was boss at KL and she was a captive. The sudden marriage move by the Lannisters seems to have been taken by the Tyrells as an insult and a warning by Tywin to stay away from Sansa.

As for why the marriage was bad, because some said the Starks would have sold her, too: I don't think either Ned or Catelyn, who doted on Arya and Sansa respectively, would have sold either of them. Sansa was willing to go along with Joffrey, otherwise Ned would have said no - he of all people has good reason not to want to force a girl to marry someone she doesn't want (re: Lyanna). When he saw what Joffrey was, he told Sansa that she deserved someone better and he would find someone worthy of her. And I think Ned really meant that, he wouldn't just sell his daughter for a minor gain. He realised Joffrey was a mistake, and would have stopped it.

I think Silverin argued very clearly why Tyrion made a choice, and wasn't exactly forced (though he was persuaded by some arguments that heavily played on his inferiority complex, so it could be said Tywin and Kevan manipulated him into it).

Having said that, it was written up thread that Sansa and Tyrion could never, ever work because he is the enemy, as a Lannister, and he can never undo that. While Tyrion cannot make the dead rise again (allthough, this being Westeros, it should be noted that Bran and Rickon are about to rise, and so will Arya and probably Jon as well), he was not involved in the death of her family members and he protected her against Joffrey so his personal part in the war against her family is quite small. And I would say that by killing Tywin, and being made into a target for assassination by his sister, he has ceased being an enemy of the Starks and could now turn into an ally of sorts - allthough that will likely depend eventually on which way it goes between Dany and any Stark she may encounter.

If Sansa and Tyrion would meet again now, the dynamic between them could be entirely different with Sansa no longer at his mercy and Tyrion having broken well and truly with his family. Though which way it would go, would be hard to say.