What will become of the Lannister siblings

[Woman of War]

Silverin:

EDIT: you know it is like this. A kid is forced to go to school in a dress that her mother choose and she feels bothered by it. She sees people laughing behind her back, and automaticly assumes it is about the clothes, because that is bothereing HER. But it can be they laugh at her hairstyle.

i like that example, it's cool....though they might be laughing at both........

[mcb]

It is no proof for that. tyrion sees them laughing and HE ASUMES it must be because he didn't consumated it. Because he feels pathetic FROM THAT.

He had felt pathetic long before the bedding. The wedding ceremony itself, for example, and the fact that he was too short to wrap a cloak around her shoulders.

[Silverin]

Edit: In fact given that Shae had heard when Tyrion goes to tell her, it sounds like the marriage was the subject of mockery and gossip before it had even happened.

Wait I didn't even remember that. From whom did Shae hear, does she say it? I mean they were trying to keep it a secret until the last minute, so the tyrells can't do something against it. Now Shae knowing it can mean she might had connections someone who were in it. Varys?

[Alexia]

Let's go over the women willing to marry and have sex with Tyrion:

So you agree with Tywin that Tyrion is completely nasty and undesirable and the only way he can get a woman is by paying one or raping one?

[1234567]

Wait I didn't even remember that. From whom did Shae hear, does she say it? I mean they were trying to keep it a secret until the last minute, so the tyrells can't do something against it. Now Shae knowing it can mean she might had connections someone who were in it. Varys?

She'd heard it from a maid, who had heard a stablehand telling Ser Tallent about it, who himself had heard it from earwigging a conversation between Tywin and Kevan Lannister.

[1234567]

He had felt pathetic long before the bedding. The wedding ceremony itself, for example, and the fact that he was too short to wrap a cloak around her shoulders.

Oh and I can imagine him having to get on Ser Dontos shoulders would have been a great source of amusement in the retelling.

[Woman of War]

To Alexia:

That is the way he probably sees himself by now, even if we as readers think that is rubbish.....

A clever sometimes charming but definitely never boring guy who likes sex should find a woman who values wits and education and an interesting dinner table conversation and who knows that after some years the pretty facade of a sexy toyboy gets faded out, if there is nothing to talk anymore.

Unfortunately Tyrion can' t hear our thoughts and advices, he does not know that no doubt there is something in for him in GRRM's storyline - so, yes, at the moment he is stuck with despair and self-hatred.

[Rickon is FIERCE]

It is no proof for that. tyrion sees them laughing and HE ASUMES it must be because he didn't consumated it. Because he feels pathetic FROM THAT. The bolded part shows by the way that his assumtions are not even definietly true at all, since Sansa ony confided in Dontos at that time.

EDIT: you know it is like this. A kid is forced to go to school in a dress that her mother choose and she feels bothered by it. She sees people laughing behind her back, and automaticly assumes it is about the clothes, because that is bothereing HER. But it can be they laugh at her hairstyle.

I didn't say it was because of her age, I was saying that it is considered normal in Westeros NOT to bed your wife until she is older and therefore I don't understand why that would be the sole reason for the mockery. Given the way the wedding was conducted I think it likely that people such as the Kettlebacks etc had a great time telling everyone about how the girl was kept in the dark so she didn't run away and that she had to be dragged to the alter and cried through her wedding feast. I think even if he had consummated the marriage, people would have laughed at him for the reasons stated above.

Edit: In fact given that Shae had heard when Tyrion goes to tell her, it sounds like the marriage was the subject of mockery and gossip before it had even happened.

I don't recall Sansa commenting that people are laughing behind her back, which would be the case if it was her they were laughing at. It's Tyrion we expressly see as the butt of the jokes.

Yes, the marriage was the subject of gossip, but I don't remember any evidence that it was the subject of mockery before it happened.

Actually I think it does change theme.

"The only person in the Red Keep who didn't seem to find his marriage a source of amusement was his lady wife. Sansa's misery was deepening everyday"

This seems to suggest that it is not just about her being a maiden. It suggests that everyone thought it was a joke apart from her. It wouldn't make sense as a line of text if it referred solely to her maiden status.

You forgot to put the paragraph break in there... "Sansa's misery was deepening every day" begins a new paragraph, wherein we learn about her misery in their marriage bed, where she is still a maid and tense every night....still the same theme, which then gets expanded on, I believe, to her overall unhappiness.

Edit: Although there is a good point to be said that it was known and talked about that she is still a maid and actually there would have been those who laughed at him because of that and actually you have a good point there. Given other comments and Sansa's own description of it as a "mockery of a marriage, and normal Westerosi customs and I think the negative view people had of Tyrion's character (unfairly so), I can see there being multiple sources for humour resulting from that marriage.

Agreed.

[Tini]

And the whole idea of "looked at the available material and chose Sansa over Lollys" is enraging, considering that Tyrion would rather cut it off and feed it to the goats than accept an arranged marriage with somebody he finds unattractive, but then feels sorry for himself after he forces himself on somebody who finds him unattractive. Tyrion was really hypocritical and ugly in evaluating the marriage offers of Sansa and Lollys, and I am disappointed that he would be defended on that score.

People say and think a lot of things they don't actually mean. If you had asked Sansa before her marriage, she might have told you that she would commit suicide rather than marrying a Lannister, or an ugly dwarf. So no, I don't blame Tyrion for this thought, then going through with the marriage. He would have gone through with the marriage if Sansa had been one-eyed and sported a peg-leg. Tywin would have made him.

And Tyrion was not given a choice between Lollys and Sansa. He knew that Lady Stokeworth had been angling for that match, but I don't think she ever proposed it to him. Tyrion didn't want Lollys, but as I said before it was Tywin who made the decision. Even if we are not told so explicitly, Tywin would have considered Lady Stokeworth's offer as an insult to his dignity. Not only is she a lackwit of low nobility, but singers would have made songs about the Lackwit and the Dwarf for years to come, no matter how many bards he'd torture and kill.

Yes, it is enraging that Tywin considered the unmarried women in Westeros cattle, and chose the piece he liked best for his son. But no matter how enraging that is, it is what happened.

[Alexia]

People say and think a lot of things they don't actually mean. If you had asked Sansa before her marriage, she might have told you that she would commit suicide rather than marrying a Lannister, or an ugly dwarf. So no, I don't blame Tyrion for this thought, then going through with the marriage. He would have gone through with the marriage if Sansa had been one-eyed and sported a peg-leg. Tywin would have made him.

And Tyrion was not given a choice between Lollys and Sansa. He knew that Lady Stokeworth had been angling for that match, but I don't think she ever proposed it to him. Tyrion didn't want Lollys, but as I said before it was Tywin who made the decision. Even if we are not told so explicitly, Tywin would have considered Lady Stokeworth's offer as an insult to his dignity. Not only is she a lackwit of low nobility, but singers would have made songs about the Lackwit and the Dwarf for years to come, no matter how many bards he'd torture and kill.

Yes, it is enraging that Tywin considered the unmarried women in Westeros cattle, and chose the piece he liked best for his son. But no matter how enraging that is, it is what happened.

And once again, fans attempt to whitewash Tyrion by claiming one of the most morally dubious things he chose to do wasn't really his choice and then make things up that are not supported by the text.

1) Tyrion would not have married Sansa if she was unattractive, and he wasn't forced to marry her. Tywin asked for his consent and pointed out all the benefits.

2) Tyrion did have a choice between Sansa, Lollys, or some other woman. You need to reread the conversation with Tywin because you clearly don't remember what happened. I think this may be the first post I've ever seen claim that Tywin considered Lady Stokeworth's offer (which was proposed to Tywin) an insult to his dignity, considering that a. he didn't; and b. he offers the proposal to Tyrion for consideration.

[Rickon is FIERCE]

So you agree with Tywin that Tyrion is completely nasty and undesirable and the only way he can get a woman is by paying one or raping one?

I don't, but I think Tyrion believes the only way he can get laid is to pay for it, and that no woman can find him truly desirable, especially after his disfigurement. This is not to say he doesn't deeply, deeply want and need to have that disproven, but he thinks it pretty much impossible. That's the whole deal with Shae... he allows himself to love her and hope she loves and wants him, too-- for who and what he is-- all the while knowing it's a delusion.

[Alexia]

I don't, but I think Tyrion believes the only way he can get laid is to pay for it, and that no woman can find him truly desirable, especially after his disfigurement. This is not to say he doesn't deeply, deeply want and need to have that disproven, but he thinks it pretty much impossible. That's the whole deal with Shae... he allows himself to love her and hope she loves and wants him, too-- for who and what he is-- all the while knowing it's a delusion.

Then we are in agreement... right? My point is that if Tyrion wasn't so damaged by the Tysha incident, he would have been able to find a willing woman of more acceptable social status. But he keeps looking for love with whores, and then with Sansa, and thus all his preconceptions (because I think he internalized Tywin's attitude toward him) keep getting proven right. Not because they are right, but because of where he is looking.

[Rickon is FIERCE]

And once again, fans attempt to whitewash Tyrion by claiming one of the most morally dubious things he chose to do wasn't really his choice and then make things up that are not supported by the text. 1) Tyrion would not have married Sansa if she was unattractive, and he wasn't forced to marry her. Tywin asked for his consent and pointed out all the benefits. 2) Tyrion did have a choice between Sansa, Lollys, or some other woman. You need to reread the conversation with Tywin because you clearly don't remember what happened. I think this may be the first post I've ever seen claim that Tywin considered Lady Stokeworth's offer (which was proposed to Tywin) an insult to his dignity, considering that a. he didn't; and b. he offers the proposal to Tyrion for consideration.

Tywin makes that comment about Lady Tanda as a dig to egg Tyrion into saying yes. But if you read the passage, Tyrion "lets them [Tywin and Kevan] have their byplay"- lets them go through the motions of other marriage possibilities for both himself and Sansa- "knowing it was all for his benefit"- so that he would think he was getting a choice. The end of the chapter is very clear. Tywin says, "You will marry Sansa Stark," period. The decision's been made.

[Tini]

And once again, fans attempt to whitewash Tyrion by claiming one of the most morally dubious things he chose to do wasn't really his choice and then make things up that are not supported by the text.

1) Tyrion would not have married Sansa if she was unattractive, and he wasn't forced to marry her. Tywin asked for his consent and pointed out all the benefits.

2) Tyrion did have a choice between Sansa, Lollys, or some other woman. You need to reread the conversation with Tywin because you clearly don't remember what happened. I think this may be the first post I've ever seen claim that Tywin considered Lady Stokeworth's offer (which was proposed to Tywin) an insult to his dignity, considering that a. he didn't; and b. he offers the proposal to Tyrion for consideration.

He offered the proposal to Tyrion for consideration because he wanted to push Tyrion in the direction he wanted him to go. Accept Sansa, or I'll have you marry someone you like a lot less.

And once again that word whitewashing. It might legitimately apply to me, I know. I hate the blackwashers, too. That word should be used much more often on these boards.

[Rickon is FIERCE]

Then we are in agreement... right? My point is that if Tyrion wasn't so damaged by the Tysha incident, he would have been able to find a willing woman of more acceptable social status. But he keeps looking for love with whores, and then with Sansa, and thus all his preconceptions (because I think he internalized Tywin's attitude toward him) keep getting proven right. Not because they are right, but because of where he is looking.

Well, sort of. Not sure if he could have found a noblewoman whose family would have agreed to the match, as Tywin said, he couldn't get anywhere with that. Problem is, Tyrion might have found happiness with, as others have said, an older, more mature woman, a widower perhaps, or a girl from a lesser house, or even a commoner, like Tysha had been. I think Tyrion would have been happy to marry a whore, as well (like Shae), if he thought her love and desire for him were legit (he thinks to himself when Tywin suggests Sansa that "he wants a wife who wants [him] in his bed). But Tywin would never allow it. Tywin's only going to allow a marriage to families of the highest standing and to young maidens capable of producing heirs to cement the alliance the marriage makes.

[Woman of War]

damn Ipad, no preview, cancel or editing

[Woman of War]

Then we are in agreement... right? My point is that if Tyrion wasn't so damaged by the Tysha incident, he would have been able to find a willing woman of more acceptable social status. But he keeps looking for love with whores, and then with Sansa, and thus all his preconceptions (because I think he internalized Tywin's attitude toward him) keep getting proven right. Not because they are right, but because of where he is looking.

Here we don't disagree

[1234567]

@ Rickon is FIERCE.

This whole thing stemmed from a post a few pages back that seemed to assert that Tyrion was a complete prince for not bedding Sansa because he was then laughed at. (I can't begin to explain what I actually think of this line of logic)

Basically what I was trying to say is that it is not the sole reason that people are laughing at the Tyrion and Sansa marriage, because it is not normal in Westeros, even if you get married to a girl that young to bed them. Therefore half the castle may know she is still a maid but that is not the only reason the marriage is the subject of mockery.

Tyrion makes the distinction that half the people know she is a maid, but that everyone finds the marriage humourous. All the other aspects of it are the subject of gossip and certainly from other people's comments to Sansa and others, there is an impression that a lot of people think she has been mistreated in respects to her marriage.

Also I did think that the paragraph led on from the other point, but I may well be wrong in this case.

[Silverin]

Lets reread the scene shall we?

“If you will not have the Stark girl, I shall find you another wife. Somewhere in the realm there is doubtless some little lordling who’d gladly part with a daughter to win the friendship of Casterly Rock. Lady Tanda has offered Lollys...”

Tyrion gave a shudder of dismay. “I’d sooner cut it off and feed it to the goats.”

“Then open your eyes. The Stark girl is young, nubile, tractable, of the highest birth, and still a maid. She is not uncomely. Why would you hesitate?”

Why indeed? “A quirk of mine. Strange to say, I would prefer a wife who wants me in her bed.”

“If you think your whores want you in their bed, you are an even greater fool than I suspected,” said Lord Tywin. “You disappoint me, Tyrion. I had hoped this match would please you.”

“Yes, we all know how important my pleasure is to you, Father. But there’s more to this. The key to the north, you say? The Greyjoys hold the north now, and King Balon has a daughter. Why Sansa Stark, and not her?” He looked into his father’s cool green eyes with their bright flecks of gold.

Lord Tywin steepled his fingers beneath his chin. “Balon Greyjoy thinks in terms of plunder, not rule. Let him enjoy an autumn crown and suffer a northern winter. He will give his subjects no cause to love him. Come spring, the northmen will have had a bellyful of krakens. When you bring Eddard Stark’s grandson home to claim his birthright, lords and little folk alike will rise as one to place him on the high seat of his ancestors. You are capable of getting a woman with child, I hope?”

“I believe I am,” he said, bristling. “I confess, I cannot prove it. Though no one can say I have not tried. Why, I plant my little seeds just as often as I can...”

“In the gutters and the ditches,” finished Lord Tywin, “and in common ground where only bastard weeds take root. It is past time you kept your own garden.” He rose to his feet. “You shall never have Casterly Rock, I promise you. But wed Sansa Stark, and it is just possible that you might win Winterfell.”

Tyrion Lannister, Lord Protector of Winterfell. The prospect gave him a queer chill. “Very good, Father,” he said slowly, “but there’s a big ugly roach in your rushes. Robb Stark is as capable as I am, presumably, and sworn to marry one of those fertile Freys. And once the Young Wolf sires a litter, any pups that Sansa births are heirs to nothing.”

tyrion agreed here, after this they talk about Robb and his marriage to Jeyne and after that tywin sais to tyrion this at the end of the book

“The greatest fools are ofttimes more clever than the men who laugh at them,” he said, and then, “You will marry Sansa Stark, Tyrion. And soon.”

this wasn't an order since tyrion already accepted it. tywin just simply stated a fact, that the marriage will soon happen.

tyrion wsn't forced to marry Sansa. he wasn't threatened, wasn't given an ultimatum. he didn't do it to "save" her from another Lannister either. he liked the idea of getting Winterfell with a pretty wife.

All that tywin is saying is that if he isn't taking sansa he will find him another wife.

[Rickon is FIERCE]

Lets reread the scene shall we?

tyrion agreed here, after this they talk about Robb and his marriage to Jeyne and after that tywin sais to tyrion this at the end of the book

this wasn't an order since tyrion already accepted it. tywin just simply stated a fact, that the marriage will soon happen.

tyrion wsn't forced to marry Sansa. he wasn't threatened, wasn't given an ultimatum. he didn't do it to "save" her from another Lannister either. he liked the idea of getting Winterfell with a pretty wife.

All that tywin is saying is that if he isn't taking sansa he will find him another wife.

You left out a crucial passage, which I quoted in my post and already spoke on. All that talk of other marriages for either Tyrion or Sansa is total BS from Tywin and Kevan to offer Tyrion the illusion of having a choice:

"He let them have their byplay; it was all for his benefit, he knew."

Or is it your assertion that by "for his benefit" Tyrion actually means, and incredibly, believes, that Tywin is racking his brains for a way to work this all out that has Tyrion's benefit as priority one?