What will become of the Lannister siblings

[Rickon is FIERCE]

I haven't the time to find the posts (they maybe in the Tyrion and Tysha thread) but yes there are people who excuse Tyrion's treatment of the Slave Girl and the prostitute.

Yikes.

[Hound's She-wolf]

Of course not. He has no power over Illyrio. Pointed little jabs are all he can unleash on him. And just to be clear... I am not saying his treatment of the slave girl was acceptable/justified/excusable, etc. No one is saying that (I hope). We just find it easy to trace the path that led him to where he is, right or wrong.

That's the point, he doesn't take it out on Illyrio, only the people that can't fight back, usually women.

There are plenty of people that excuse what he did, you may not be one, but there are many others.

[Tini]

Tyrion was in a no win situation as soon as he married her. Damn if he does and damned if he doesn't. I don't know if he noticed how isolated their marriage had made her from everyone else.

Yes, he was in a no-win situation.

Tyrion was isolated himself. His father had taken the office of Hand from him, he was losing control of his guards, like Bronn, pardon me, now Ser Bronn. He couldn't even visit Shae as he liked. His sister and nephew openly despised and hated him. Sansa didn't want his company (and I don't blame her for that). Tyrion had been isolated in one way or another all his life, so that is a normal state of affairs for him. Furthermore, do we even know if Tyrion was aware that her life held so much more diversion before their marriage than afterwards? How would he know that she was isolated by their marriage?

[1234567]

Furthermore, do we even know if Tyrion was aware that her life held so much more diversion before their marriage than afterwards? How would he know that she was isolated by their marriage?

Actually I don't think there is textual evidence either way.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

My suspicion is, whether it's right or good or proper or not, that she will end up with Tyrion. Just seems to me that's the way he's setting it up thematically.

Ugh. I'll leave it at that.

[Alexia]

How would he know that she was isolated by their marriage?

Because he isn't a stupid man and saw that she spent her time doing nothing but praying after they were married? Tyrion's not a stupid man. He really isn't. Willfully blind at times, but not stupid. I don't think he cares about the fact that she's isolated and all the wrong done to her, because he's too busy feeling sorry for himself that she sexually rejected the dwarf. He even says that every moment he's with her, he can never forget what he is because of the way she tenses up and looks at him when he climbs into her bed at night.

Ugh. I'll leave it at that.

I agree. I am not certain of much when it comes to GRRM, but I feel fairly confident that she's not going to end up with Tyrion. I think its far more likely that she'd join the Faith -- and Tyrion considers her lost to him and doesn't even want her back.

[1234567]

I agree. I am not certain of much when it comes to GRRM, but I feel fairly confident that she's not going to end up with Tyrion. I think its far more likely that she'd join the Faith -- and Tyrion considers her lost to him and doesn't even want her back.

I sooooo hope you are right. I think my main reason for thinking she'll end up with Tyrion is that my favourite characters in Books and Film generally have unhappy endings and Sansa staying married to Tyrion would be one of the worst endings possible IMHO.

[Alexia]

I sooooo hope you are right. I think my main reason for thinking she'll end up with Tyrion is that my favourite characters in Books and Film generally have unhappy endings and Sansa staying married to Tyrion would be one of the worst endings possible IMHO.

If there's any character that is being set up for a happy ending, I think it is Sansa. It might be Faint's theory of her staying Alayne (with a different assumed name), or she may end up ruling one of the two kingdoms she is heiress to, or as the Lady of the Vale, or a queen in the North or on the Iron Throne. There's a lot of possible ways that her story could go. But I think the reason she was married to Tyrion was primarily to prevent her from getting married again before the final book so that the resolution of that story arc could be delayed.

GRRM spent half a book banging us all over the head with how incompatible the two are and how miserable they make each other. I am concerned that he might pair Tyrion up with Dany, which would be completely unrealistic and not gel with Dany's characterization either. But I have no fears about Sansa. Personally, I ship Tyrion and himself. He's a great character but the first time I found myself enjoying his interactions with a woman is with Penny, and I don't want the two dwarfs paired off either. Well, I did love him and Cersei interacting and sniping at each other, but that wasn't sexual other than the odd putdown.

I might like Tyrion/Penny if Tyrion becomes Lord of Casterly Rock though, for no other reason but to stick a thumb in Tywin's eye. But not really.

ETA: Tyrion/Bronn works too, as a bromance. :lol:

[Verboten]

I think that all of the Lannister siblings are going to crash and burn, including Tyrion. Tyrion may be GRRM's favourite character to write about but that did not stop him from writing the slave girl scene in ADWD. I don't think he wants any of them to be seen as wholly good or evil, I think he wants to portray three siblings that delude themselves into thinking they are heroes and they are right, but end up being the worst of villains. Jaime's line about wanting to be Arthur Dayne but becoming the Smiling Knight is applicable to all of the Lannister siblings. Tyrion wants to be loved but his own actions lead to him being hated by nearly everyone he meets. Cersei wants to be Tywin but turns into Robert. They are all characters that fit the Greek version of tragic because all of the misfortune in their lives has warped them to the point where they are incapable of doing anything but bringing more misery upon themselves and we as readers get to be saddened by Jaime's broken dreams of becoming a true knight, the way Cersei tries so hard to protect her children while only making their deaths inevitable and the way Tyrion is shedding all of his empathy to become Tywin writ small. I don't see happy endings for any of these characters.

[Woman of War]

I sooooo hope you are right. I think my main reason for thinking she'll end up with Tyrion is that my favourite characters in Books and Film generally have unhappy endings and Sansa staying married to Tyrion would be one of the worst endings possible IMHO.

:) Oh, but Sandor would be far worse ( jump at my throat, girls! :) ) No, I want Pod Payne for her or simply a nice life without being troubled by smelly foul mouthed older guys in a nice job like Virginal Queen after she had good sex at least once :blushing:

[Rickon is FIERCE]

Tyrion considers her lost to him

Yep.

and doesn't even want her back.

Nope. There is nothing in the text which suggests this. Is he heartsick at her absence and does he spend all his time pining for her? No, but I don't think it's necessarily the case that he doesn't want her back. That remains to be seen...

[Alexia]

Nope. There is nothing in the text which suggests this. Is he heartsick at her absence and does he spend all his time pining for her? No, but I don't think it's necessarily the case that he doesn't want her back. That remains to be seen...

He wants Tysha back. He thinks of Sansa what, twice?, in his chapters. He is obsessed with Tysha. I believe he sees Sansa as the false bride who made his life miserable, and has Tysha set on a pedestal. He's looking for Tysha, not Sansa. He cares about Tysha, not Sansa. He does not strike me as caring at all about recovering Sansa, or even caring enough about her to want revenge for framing him or being false to him.

[1234567]

:) Oh, but Sandor would be far worse ( jump at my throat, girls! :) ) No, I want Pod Payne for her or simply a nice life without being troubled by smelly foul mouthed older guys in a nice job like Virginal Queen after she had good sex at least once :blushing:

From a personal POV yes, I like the idea of Sandor best (although only if he has calmed down the asshole quality of his personality) because she likes him and he liked her and she let her courtesy armour down with him.

However from a narrative (and actually in RL point of view) then someone like Pod would be lovely, but a little to lowborn for her. She could indeed be being set-up as the younger Queen and end up with Aegon. I always thought she and Domeric Bolton would have been a brilliant match personality wise.

[Alexia]

I think a Virgin Queen/Elizabeth I scenario would be a perfect ending for Sansa, thematically. I doubt it will happen, and I'd sort of like her to lose her virginity first on the sly, but I'd be just fine with that as an end as opposed to another political marriage. It'd be a great way to take and end her storyline.

[Verboten]

I think a Virgin Queen/Elizabeth I scenario would be a perfect ending for Sansa, thematically. I doubt it will happen, and I'd sort of like her to lose her virginity first on the sly, but I'd be just fine with that as an end as opposed to another political marriage. It'd be a great way to take and end her storyline.

You mentioned Queen Elizabeth so http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=300

[brashcandy]

:) Oh, but Sandor would be far worse ( jump at my throat, girls! :) ) No, I want Pod Payne for her or simply a nice life without being troubled by smelly foul mouthed older guys in a nice job like Virginal Queen after she had good sex at least once :blushing:

Could we stop with the Pod/Sansa shipping. He's a sweet boy ok, but really Pod?? Even the name is slightly ridiculous. I'm down for her and Sandor all the way, but I would even accept Harry the Heir if he turned out to be decent (though with the bastards and all that I doubt it) or even Aegon. Pod isn't just lowborn, he's largely inconsequential in the narrative.

[nara]

He wants Tysha back. He thinks of Sansa what, twice?, in his chapters. He is obsessed with Tysha. I believe he sees Sansa as the false bride who made his life miserable, and has Tysha set on a pedestal. He's looking for Tysha, not Sansa. He cares about Tysha, not Sansa. He does not strike me as caring at all about recovering Sansa, or even caring enough about her to want revenge for framing him or being false to him.

I suspect that when he finally finds Tysha he will either find out that she WAS after his money or at least that she's not the wonderful person he remembers. SImilar to the realization that Jaime has that Cersei is not the Maiden incarnate and the one that Cersei has that Jaime is not the Warrior will not kill everyone who bothers her. These sibs need to have normal relationships where people are people and not unrealistic, idealized figures.

[Verboten]

Could we stop with the Pod/Sansa shipping. He's a sweet boy ok, but really Pod?? Even the name is slightly ridiculous. I'm down for her and Sandor all the way, but I would even accept Harry the Heir if he turned out to be decent (though with the bastards and all that I doubt it) or even Aegon. Pod isn't just lowborn, he's largely inconsequential in the narrative.

PODRICK PAYNE FOR THE IRON THRONE! :commie:

[brashcandy]

I suspect that when he finally finds Tysha he will either find out that she WAS after his money or at least that she's not the wonderful person he remembers. SImilar to the realization that Jaime has that Cersei is not the Maiden incarnate and the one that Cersei has that Jaime is not the Warrior will not kill everyone who bothers her. These sibs need to have normal relationships where people are people and not unrealistic, idealized figures.

Why should he need to find this out? So that he can absolve himself of the guilt he felt over her treatment? I think Tysha will turn out to be exactly as she was presented to us: an innocent girl who was enamoured with Tyrion and was mercilessly ill treated by Tywin. The whole problem with Jaime and Tyrion I agree is that they do idealise these two relationships, but that's their problem. The women have always been presented to readers as I think Martin intended to. We're not really meant to excuse Tyrion's treatment of Tysha (although many people do) and we're definitely not meant to see Jaime as some hero for deserting Cersei... although... given how Martin destroyed Cersei's character in AFFC, maybe we are.

[Hound's She-wolf]

I suspect that when he finally finds Tysha he will either find out that she WAS after his money or at least that she's not the wonderful person he remembers. SImilar to the realization that Jaime has that Cersei is not the Maiden incarnate and the one that Cersei has that Jaime is not the Warrior will not kill everyone who bothers her. These sibs need to have normal relationships where people are people and not unrealistic, idealized figures.

i don't want Tysha to be after just his money, it's so much more tragic if she actually liked Tyrion for him.

Yes on everything else.

And to second Brashcandy, what is with the Pod ship? No, no no. (I kinda ship Sansa and Gendry but that's a whole nother story).