What will become of the Lannister siblings

[Alexia]

I think that Stannis and Davos are the most delicious ship around, and I don't even like shellfish very much. ;)

Anyway, I agree the Tyrells weren't at all altruistic and had their own flaws -- we talked about it for a few pages of the unpopular opinions thread. The underlying attitude beneath their treatment of her reminds me a tad of Lady Lysa. And nobody deserves a grandmother-in-law like Lady Olenna! :lol: I don't wish to whitewash them anymore than I do Tyrion -- we just happened to be in a Lannister thread right now.

[Rickon is FIERCE]

i don't want Tysha to be after just his money, it's so much more tragic if she actually liked Tyrion for him.

Totally agree.

[Rickon is FIERCE]

I immediately thought of him when Jaime made the comment about Sansa being better off married to a blacksmith. I thought, aha! We got one of those.

Haha! I thought the same...who knows?

I never got the Arya/Gendry shipping, I got a more brother and sisterly vibe from them, I never got anything romantic.

Well, there is his weird reaction to her when she wears a dress-- and they end up wrestling, and the way he gets all jealous about her whenever Edric Dayne's around, and feels the need to apologize to her for joining the BWB.

Oh, and Gendry already gets along with her sister and knows her unMom. This way Arya wouldn't be tempted to kill her husband, the other two we've mentioned would have to sleep with one eye open. (And I'm not including Stannis in that because I just don't know what to say about Stan/San).

Hahahaha!!! Wish I was at my computer to put that little hysterically laughing emoticon on this... Love it.

[Verboten]

I'm 95% sure that Sansa was 12, I'm just too lazy to look up the quote.

I'm also going to stick to my crackpot theory that Brienne's going to kill Jaime and thereby become Azor Ahai Reborn.

:cheers: I'm not the only one who thinks this!

[Rickon is FIERCE]

:cheers: I'm not the only one who thinks this!

I've gone on about it at length in other threads, as I see either Jaime or Brienne as AA. My Brienne angle goes like this:

Cersei, continuing on her rampage from AFFC, somehow attempts to "burn them all" (we've seen that she got off on burning he Tower of the Hand)...Jaime is back in the same position he was with Aerys, and he makes the same choice, for the greater good, thereby fulfilling the valonqar prophecy (although some think Stannis may be the little brother to do for Cersei, which interests me...). But I do see the twins going out together, as has been several times referenced. Perhaps he is badly burned in the fire Cersei sets, or mortally injured in some other way, and he asks Brienne for the gift of mercy (cuz I just don't see her killing him in any other situation, as he is her new Renly), which she will do b/c she loves him. Ice/Oathkeeper (which HAS to be set for something big), having already been plunged into water in Jaime's fever dream (remember the first AA plunged sword #1 into water), now gets plunged into both a lion and the man Brienne loves (swords #2 and #3 did the same with the first AA)- Jaime.

Added thought of the fact that Jaime and Brienne both wield flaming swords in his fever dream, but Cersei holds a torch and tells him when the fire goes out, he will die...his sword ends up going out but Brienne's remains.

[iamthedave]

The Tyrells wanted to use her too, but the time Sansa spent with them was significantly happier than any other point in KL since her father's death.

And then they abandoned her the split second they couldn't get what they wanted, and in part Sansa's depression was triggered by realizing that they didn't give a damn about her and everything they offered was just honey to get their hands on Winterfell.

But as you mentioned yourself, you know they had ulterior motives. I just find it odd that so many of the attitudes towards Tyrion on the board seem to be the same as in the books. People don't hate him as much for being a dwarf (and certainly nobody worth listening to says as such), but all of his negatives are emphasized, his positives get ignored, and only the things he does wrong are counted, while it seems anybody can betray him as much as they like and get off scot free, because, well, he's Tyrion and he deserves to be betrayed and generally crapped on by everybody for the crime of existing.

[Rickon is FIERCE]

And then they abandoned her the split second they couldn't get what they wanted, and in part Sansa's depression was triggered by realizing that they didn't give a damn about her and everything they offered was just honey to get their hands on Winterfell.

In fact she thinks this on her wedding day: "Tyrell or Lannister, it makes no matter, it's not me they want, only my claim."

[voodooqueen126]

I think that Stannis and Davos are the most delicious ship around, and I don't even like shellfish very much. ;)

Anyway, I agree the Tyrells weren't at all altruistic and had their own flaws -- we talked about it for a few pages of the unpopular opinions thread. The underlying attitude beneath their treatment of her reminds me a tad of Lady Lysa. And nobody deserves a grandmother-in-law like Lady Olenna! :lol: I don't wish to whitewash them anymore than I do Tyrion -- we just happened to be in a Lannister thread right now.

You know the Tyrell marriage, had it occured, would've given Sansa the oppurtunity to work for her family's interests eventually by exploiting the Lannister/Tyrell split that Cersei brings about in AFFC.

[Woman of War]

And then they abandoned her the split second they couldn't get what they wanted, and in part Sansa's depression was triggered by realizing that they didn't give a damn about her and everything they offered was just honey to get their hands on Winterfell.

But as you mentioned yourself, you know they had ulterior motives. I just find it odd that so many of the attitudes towards Tyrion on the board seem to be the same as in the books. People don't hate him as much for being a dwarf (and certainly nobody worth listening to says as such), but all of his negatives are emphasized, his positives get ignored, and only the things he does wrong are counted, while it seems anybody can betray him as much as they like and get off scot free, because, well, he's Tyrion and he deserves to be betrayed and generally crapped on by everybody for the crime of existing.

As much as I would like to push my "like" button here, is is not completely true. i have to give credit to some posters, they have repeatedly and expressly tried to evaluate Tyrion' s behavour in a neutral and detached manner, referring to his self-pity, his delusions when it comes to women and the spectacular dissonance evaluating feelings of other people and his own, given his cleverness. i simply disagree with them in some points but no problem.

But you are right unfortunately about many others who go along the line: "of course Sansa can't want him, there is this and that situation ............and apart from that, he is ugly" I don't blame Sansa for despising his looks ( apart from the horrible situation as a whole ), she has every right ( ah, obviously) to abhor being raped by him. She shares the opinion about his looks with about every westerosi woman. And no "modern" woman would find him pretty either. it would take a really mature person, not only in westeros but also in our world to look behind his looks an to feel genuine affection.I would never expect Sansa to fall in love with him and I am really glad there was no sex, for many reasons, so often stated here, last not least BECAUSE SHE SHOULD NOT HAVE SEX WITH AN OLDER GUY AT HER AGE AT ALL in my opinion.

But so many posters never make te distinction between westerosi prejudices and their own opinion abot Tyrion's unfortunate looks. as well they take every referring to to the circumstances of his life as being an excuse for whatever behavior instead of an attempt of a broader evaluation. so they repeat exactly the medieval approach, turning the literary character into what they expect him to be.

And about every other westerosi woman would not have him as her first choice of lover as long as the lights are on. So Sansa's behavoiur is perfectly to be expected ( apart from the other other ugly circumstances, widely discussed, I wll not repeat it here)

But I so often read the undertones by posters, and they are definitely people of today: "it is expected that he is a pervert, someone like him could never have a normal love life, every shipping with a "normal" woman is .......uuuurrrrggh......she just CAN'T want him.......ship him with the only other dwarf no matter if they want each other ( like soap opera, a black person gets WHOM? the only other black person)

I see this as prejudice against handicapped, let's call it "physiologism" analogous to "sexism" .( having my fun with the English language, that tricky beast so often makes fun of me ).

Fine if this simply states and reflects the westerosi superstitions as they existed in every pre-modern society, that is needed for any kind of argument, and as often has been stated, Tyrion's life is , the one or other way, mainly shaped by being the ugly cripple in this kind of timesetting.

But so often the argument slips into prejudice, sad to say and the poster lack the necessary detachment that is needed to take their own more or less subconcious point of view into consideration in the debate.

[Woman of War]

Sorry, neither the "edit" function nor the "preview" function worked for me, my Ipad has gone mad or the westerosi page - or me

[Woman of War]

Sorry, neither the edit function nor the preview post function worked for me, so stupid double post

[Alexia]

But I so often read the undertones by posters, and they are definitely people of today: "it is expected that he is a pervert, someone like him could never have a normal love life, every shipping with a "normal" woman is .......uuuurrrrggh......she just CAN'T want him.......ship him with the only other dwarf no matter if they want each other ( like soap opera, a black person gets WHOM? the only other black person)

Maybe the language barrier is to blame here, but I could count the number of people I've seen ship him with Penny (and I am not one of them) on my fingers. Additionally, a number of posters have indicated repeatedly that Tyrion could have had a normal love life if he tried. He is the one who restricted his sexual interactions to prostitutes, and looked for love with women he was paying. That was also delusional. He could have tried to look for a young noble widow, perhaps even with some children, who would be very happy to have a relationship with him up to and including marriage. Tyrion doesn't have a normal love life because he doesn't try to have one, he only patronizes whores and then forces a child to marry him.

I think that the Tysha incident damaged his ability to have a normal love life way more than his dwarfism.

People don't hate him as much for being a dwarf (and certainly nobody worth listening to says as such), but all of his negatives are emphasized, his positives get ignored, and only the things he does wrong are counted, while it seems anybody can betray him as much as they like and get off scot free, because, well, he's Tyrion and he deserves to be betrayed and generally crapped on by everybody for the crime of existing.

Dave, I have been playing on this board for over two years now. Tyrion is the single most popular character in the books. His negatives are much more likely to ignored with his positives exaggerated, than the other way around. I think the only reason this is starting to change is that it becomes very difficult to ignore the sort of behavior he exhibited in ADWD. Essentially, I think this is a strawman. Nobody objects to Tyrion's existence. They object to his actions -- which get progressively worse from book to book.

Cersei, continuing on her rampage from AFFC, somehow attempts to "burn them all" (we've seen that she got off on burning he Tower of the Hand)...

Oh, I'm sure of this. Sansa wished in ACOK for the Sept of Baelor to be burnt and I think Cersei's just the Mad Queen to make it happen. I'm rooting for her to take out those two nasty septas... burn it all, Cersei, burn it all!

Then I think she's snatching Tommen and making a run for the Rock, to raise herself an army.

[Woman of War]

Rickon is FIERCE, on 07 November 2011 - 05:28 AM, said:

Cersei, continuing on her rampage from AFFC, somehow attempts to "burn them all" (we've seen that she got off on burning he Tower of the Hand)...

Alexia:

"Oh, I'm sure of this. Sansa wished in ACOK for the Sept of Baelor to be burnt and I think Cersei's just the Mad Queen to make it happen. I'm rooting for her to take out those two nasty septas... burn it all, Cersei, burn it all!"

Ooohhhhh, yes, looking forward to it...........

[1234567]

But so many posters never make te distinction between westerosi prejudices and their own opinion abot Tyrion's unfortunate looks. as well they take every referring to to the circumstances of his life as being an excuse for whatever behavior instead of an attempt of a broader evaluation. so they repeat exactly the medieval approach, turning the literary character into what they expect him to be.

But so often the argument slips into prejudice, sad to say and the poster lack the necessary detachment that is needed to take their own more or less subconcious point of view into consideration in the debate.

I don't think this supports what I've seen from a lot of (not all mind) other posters. As I've said before and lots of other people have too, Tyrion was my favourite character, you know the person who I was hoping would come out on the absolute top at the end right up until the middle of ASOS.

I remember reading about the Sansa marriage plot and thinking nah, Tyrion's going to get her to the Tyrells, his father will be furious, but this is the point where Tyrion finally escapes the clutches of his family too. Hurrah!

Then came Sansa's chapter.

All through which I just felt heartbroken for her and heartbroken because my favourite character was doing something appalling. In fact when they left the wedding feast to go to the bedroom I was still sure this would be the point where Tyrion explains that he married her to save her from being married to Lancel and that he had no intention of touching her and would try to help her and that again this would pave the way to Tyrion getting away from his family. But no, he made her undress.

Then he talked about Tysha and the "bloody sheet". This is where the realization of how brutal that rape had been finally set in for me. I know from previous posters that men can't help it if they get an erection, but to have sex with a girl so brutally raped that she is bleeding heavily and by assumption in obvious pain.....maybe I don't understand how these things work too well, but I would have thought that would make you lose it?

When he finally didn't touch Sansa that was a saving grace, but it did begin to make me look at Tyrion differently. I kept hoping he would realize what he had done and try and help her or apologize, but he kept feeling sorry for himself instead. I was glad he continually refused his father in the consummation issue and I did think he tried to be kind. However after reading posts here, I now think that there is a point that she had lost all these things she was enjoying doing and Tyrion, although kind, never bothered to findout what she liked or didn't like (he could have asked Varys what Sansa's hobbies had been). All his offers, Casterly Rock and Braavos, were based on things he wanted to do, or things that would make him happy. As I've said before it is nice that he yearns for her joys and sorrows, but he is being delusional here because her joys would be his sorrows and vice versa.

Anyway back on to the original point which is that the marriage made me think of him differently. Then came the murder of the singer, then the murder of Shae (the murder of his father is completely understandable). I thought his redemption would start from this point......then came ADWD.

The point I am trying to make is that we can appreciate his vunerable state and the crap he has gone through in his life, but that can't be used as a justification for all his actions. His actions up until the marriage had been mainly good despite being treated like shit by his family. He in many ways choose this path he is on. The thought he has about being back on the shifting decks in his conversation with his father, for me is a pivotal one, as I saw it as him feeling again that he could go one way or the other (life or death or in this case good or bad) and he choose to do the wrong thing. Nothing about these choices has to do with him being ugly or a dwarf, it is about his decisions as a human being.

NB: I think the Tyrells are vile and a large part of me wants to see Margery's head roll in the first chapter of TWOW.

Edit: My ability to spell seems to have completely vanished!

[Woman of War]

A post to make me see your point, Rapsie, thank you, great post

I had made a post about my "tentative approach" to the Tysha-rape-horror in this thread at page 29, # 580

http://asoiaf.wester...s/page__st__560

at the end of the page

Yes, it was not exactly sensitive to talk to Sansa about it, fortunately he did not try to explain the whole sad story, Sansa would in no way have been able to grasp the horrible events. That would not have been the best point to start the honesty topic in their marriage, although this may have been a perverse attempt from Tyrion's side to give her insight into his soul.

[iamthedave]

Maybe the language barrier is to blame here, but I could count the number of people I've seen ship him with Penny (and I am not one of them) on my fingers. Additionally, a number of posters have indicated repeatedly that Tyrion could have had a normal love life if he tried. He is the one who restricted his sexual interactions to prostitutes, and looked for love with women he was paying. That was also delusional. He could have tried to look for a young noble widow, perhaps even with some children, who would be very happy to have a relationship with him up to and including marriage. Tyrion doesn't have a normal love life because he doesn't try to have one, he only patronizes whores and then forces a child to marry him.

I think that the Tysha incident damaged his ability to have a normal love life way more than his dwarfism.

I don't think that is even slightly supported by the text. Tysha seems almost to be a freak by Westerosi standards.

If he lowered his standards to 'anyone who'll take me' he could probably have found another peasant woman who wanted him (there's got to be someone else in Westeros who would like him) but even highborn of lesser houses take the idea of marrying him as an insult.

Though I agree the Tysha incident ruined him mentally.

Dave, I have been playing on this board for over two years now. Tyrion is the single most popular character in the books. His negatives are much more likely to ignored with his positives exaggerated, than the other way around. I think the only reason this is starting to change is that it becomes very difficult to ignore the sort of behavior he exhibited in ADWD. Essentially, I think this is a strawman. Nobody objects to Tyrion's existence. They object to his actions -- which get progressively worse from book to book.

This would be fine if the talk about him had much to do with Dance. I don't observe that. The negative talk about Tyrion focuses almost exclusively on pre-Dance incidents. I don't see it as a strawman because it's true in my observation of trends on the boards. I haven't been around for as long as you, but that doesn't mean I'm putting forward a strawman, just that trends on the board have changed since I joined it.

It's the same that Dany has more critics now. I'm nigh-certain that she will have had more supporters pre-Dance, since I was here when Dance first came out and observed several long time supporters throw their hands up in disgust and run screaming from the ship.

I have personally seen very few pro-Tyrion threads since I joined the boards. I can remember two, but neither of them were dominated by pro Tyrion posters, and neither of them convinced me that Tyrion is the most popular character on the boards. Jon always seemed the most popular to me, and I think that holds especially true now that Tyrion and Dany have both fallen by degrees.

When he finally didn't touch Sansa that was a saving grace, but it did begin to make me look at Tyrion differently. I kept hoping he would realize what he had done and try and help her or apologize, but he kept feeling sorry for himself instead. I was glad he continually refused his father in the consummation issue and I did think he tried to be kind. However after reading posts here, I now think that there is a point that she had lost all these things she was enjoying doing and Tyrion, although kind, never bothered to findout what she liked or didn't like (he could have asked Varys what Sansa's hobbies had been). All his offers, Casterly Rock and Braavos, were based on things he wanted to do, or things that would make him happy. As I've said before it is nice that he yearns for her joys and sorrows, but he is being delusional here because her joys would be his sorrows and vice versa.

What bothers me about this, though, is that Tyrion seems to be held to a much higher standard than is expected of him even by his peers. Honestly, he treats Sansa vastly better than is expected of him. We take it as a positive that he doesn't have sex with Sansa. He gets laughed at for this in the books. By everyone. The servants laugh at him behind his back over this.

And I find the fact he gets criticized for the singer incident as completely bizarre. Symon was blackmailing him and asked him to murder or cripple a completely innocent man on his behalf, and in the end Tyrion killed him to protect Shae. Had he not done so the chances are she would have been found and killed. What exactly should he have done? God knows how much criticism he'd get over Shae if he had left Symon alone to keep blackmailing him.

[1234567]

What bothers me about this, though, is that Tyrion seems to be held to a much higher standard than is expected of him even by his peers. Honestly, he treats Sansa vastly better than is expected of him. We take it as a positive that he doesn't have sex with Sansa. He gets laughed at for this in the books. By everyone. The servants laugh at him behind his back over this.

If it had been a normal Westerosi marriage yes you are correct, however this has been gone over several times in previous posts. She was a prisoner and it was a forced marriage. The Starks are appalled by what happened to Sansa because it is completely out of the norm. Also there are characters who would have forced themselves on her, and lots who wouldn't. Several posts have listed all the characters who would never force themselves on a prisoner. Also GRRM himself has said that although marriages happen early, it is almost considered perverse to bed a girl as young as Sansa.

Are you really arguing that because Tyrion feels people are laughing at him, he is justified in forcing himself on her. That somehow him being laughed at is comparable to the situation Sansa has gone through?

Honestly I thought one of the reasons people are laughing is because everyone thinks that he could only aquire a wife through a forced marriage to a little girl. Everyone laughed at Tyrek for being married to an infant, calling him wet nurse etc. I think the same could be applied here. There is no textual evidence for it, but I'm certain people such as the Kettlebacks etc had a great time telling everyone about how the girl was kept in the dark so she didn't run away and that she had to be dragged to the alter and cried through her wedding feast. I think even if he had consummated the marriage, people would have laughed at him for the reasons stated above.

[Woman of War]

............

It's the same that Dany has more critics now. I'm nigh-certain that she will have had more supporters pre-Dance, since I was here when Dance first came out and observed several long time supporters throw their hands up in disgust and run screaming from the ship.

I have personally seen very few pro-Tyrion threads since I joined the boards. I can remember two, but neither of them were dominated by pro Tyrion posters, and neither of them convinced me that Tyrion is the most popular character on the boards. Jon always seemed the most popular to me, and I think that holds especially true now that Tyrion and Dany have both fallen by degrees.

What bothers me about this, though, is that Tyrion seems to be held to a much higher standard than is expected of him even by his peers. Honestly, he treats Sansa vastly better than is expected of him. We take it as a positive that he doesn't have sex with Sansa. He gets laughed at for this in the books. By everyone. The servants laugh at him behind his back over this.

agree

[Aengus Millen]

Jaime will become lord commander thats the best that can be hoped for him when one of the Targs takes over. Cersei will be strangled by Jaime when she attacks Brienne. Tyrion will become less bitchy in the next book and become Dany's hand

[Woman of War]

Honestly I thought one of the reasons people are laughing is because everyone thinks that he could only aquire a wife through a forced marriage to a little girl. Everyone laughed at Tyrek for being married to an infant, calling him wet nurse etc. I think the same could be applied here. There is no textual evidence for it, but I'm certain people such as the Kettlebacks etc had a great time telling everyone about how the girl was kept in the dark so she didn't run away and that she had to be dragged to the alter and cried through her wedding feast. I think even if he had consummated the marriage, people would have laughed at him for the reasons stated above.

There I believe you are wrong. I think he was expressly laughed at because the marriage had not been "consummated" (disgusting word, shudder) apart from being reprimanded by his father.