What will become of the Lannister siblings

[1234567]

How about: Tyrion tries to make peace with Jaime and Cersei. He meets Jaime first, and they forgive each other. Then some headhunter recognizes Tyrion, cuts his head off, and brings it to Cersei. Jaime arrives in time to see his sister's joy over Tyrion's death, freaks out and kills her.

I've run out of likes again, but I really like this option. To be honest nothing until now had convinced me that Jaime would actively kill Cersei. But other than Cersei the only other people he seems to really care about are his kids and Tyrion (he likes Brienne but I can't see him killing Cersei over her). The scenario above would be the right level of motivation.

[Alexia]

"How old are you, Sansa?" asked Tyrion, after a moment.

"Thirteen," she said, "when the moon turns."

"Gods have mercy." The dwarf took another swallow of wine. "Well, talk won't make you older. Shall we get on with this, my lady. If it please you?"

"It will please me to please my lord husband."

That seemed to anger him.

1) Sansa has not turned 13 yet, she is still 12. (And she is still 13 in AFFC, although she aged Alayne up to 14.)

2) Tyrion knows damn well that she is too young, because she is too young by his standards and by the standards of his culture. His reaction proves it.

3) Tyrion is upset when she responds to his instructions to "get on with this" by basically saying that she'll do whatever he tells her to do. The coversation continues with...

"You hide behind your courtesy as if it were a castle wall."

"Courtesy is a lady's armor," Sansa said. Her septa had always told her that.

"I am your husband. You can take off your armor now."

Tyrion definitely was hoping all along that she would be his wife in truth, and all his illusions got dashed when she very quietly refused to express any opinion on what he was doing to her.

I just can't read any of this without believing that the man was hoping that she would fall in love with him and that he would get a happy marriage. We're aren't in his head right now, and Sansa is terrified, but I think GRRM made it very clear that his illusions, hopes, and dreams are all currently being dashed to little bits.

[iamthedave]

She will repeat the offer, and he will take it, if they think it´s the only way to save their children. Cersei is already learning that she is not secure as she thought; when she was captive of the Great Septon, she went begging to her brother.

As for Jamie, he may not be a politician, but of lately he seems to slowly be becoming one (see his work in the Riverlands); and in AFFC he already was making plans to force Cersei change her Council and name Kevan or Littlefinger her hand, so he may delude himself saying he is no politician, but his plans show something different...

When the next Lannister child dies, Cersei will be both broken and terrified, will beg in tears to his brother, and he will accept.

Jaime never gave a crap about the children. In fact just before going off with Brienne he was thinking of going to Kings' Landing and revealing the truth about him, Cersei and the kids, a deed that would get both of them executed and both of the kids killed.

At this point, Cersei crying and begging him for help is likely to have the opposite effect and cause him to start asking her about whether those tears were how she won over Lancel and others, and Cersei will lash out the way she always does when someone dares to face her with the crimes she's completely guilty for, and the rift between them will grow even deeper.

And let's not forget that he's falling increasingly in love with Brienne, whom Cersei is likely to badmouth inside three sentences, which will again make him say something.

Tyrion definitely was hoping all along that she would be his wife in truth, and all his illusions got dashed when she very quietly refused to express any opinion on what he was doing to her.

I just can't read any of this without believing that the man was hoping that she would fall in love with him and that he would get a happy marriage. We're aren't in his head right now, and Sansa is terrified, but I think GRRM made it very clear that his illusions, hopes, and dreams are all currently being dashed to little bits.

I agree with that interpretation. I don't see why this as some sign that Tyrion is a monstrous beast, though.

Like the speech he gives when he says he can be kind and he knows he's ugly but it's not so bad when the lights are out. He's obviously reaching out to her then. He frequently lambasts himself for thinking this, either because he's a dwarf or because his family murdered hers. It's not like he's oblivious to this issue.

He intended to get her away from Kings' Landing, too, and when Joffrey was tormenting her on their wedding night he said 'she is no longer yours to torment, monster' or something to that effect.

Tyrion tried a whole hell of a lot harder than anyone else ever did to improve Sansa's life, even if he failed miserably. And he very clearly empathizes with her situation several times, even through his self-absorption.

[House Martell]

No, she was 12. Tyrion asked her how old she was on the wedding night and she said she would turn 13 in a month.

You're right, the line is "Thirteen, when the moon turns" (ASOS pg 364), so next month. Yes she is young.

[1234567]

He intended to get her away from Kings' Landing, too, and when Joffrey was tormenting her on their wedding night he said 'she is no longer yours to torment, monster' or something to that effect.

He said it to Joff during the conversation when after the RW. Joff said he wanted Robb's head so Sansa could kiss it (Ugh!). Kevan and Tyrion both have a go at him, and even Tywin later says something about King's not having to tell everyone they are King etc. It was a great scene as apart from Cersei, everyone in the room knew that Joff was a monster. I would like to have known what the sharp lesson Tywin was planning was.

[Ser Lepus]

Jaime never gave a crap about the children. In fact just before going off with Brienne he was thinking of going to Kings' Landing and revealing the truth about him, Cersei and the kids, a deed that would get both of them executed and both of the kids killed.

At this point, Cersei crying and begging him for help is likely to have the opposite effect and cause him to start asking her about whether those tears were how she won over Lancel and others, and Cersei will lash out the way she always does when someone dares to face her with the crimes she's completely guilty for, and the rift between them will grow even deeper.

And let's not forget that he's falling increasingly in love with Brienne, whom Cersei is likely to badmouth inside three sentences, which will again make him say something.

Jamie is changing. He may have not cared for his children in the past, but his behaviour in regards to Tommen showed how he was starting to care (remember when they spoke during Tywin´s funeral?). As for his feelings towards Cersei, he has growed wise about her real self, and a part of him loathes her, but when he watches her completely crushed, he won´t be able to turn his back. He won´t ask her about Lancel or whatever when she becomes a ruin due to pain; she is, after all, the person he loved most for most of his life...

As for Brienne, she isn´t relevant here: I don´t think they are going to speak about her; she is irrelevant to Cersei, who couldn´t never conceive his brother falling in love with such a woman, and isn´t likely to even think about her in any way (she sees her as to much below herself to even remember her); as for Jamie, I doubt he is likely so speak about Brienne to Cersei, specially if he falls in love with her (Jamie will accept to become her Hand, not to become her lover again; and he won´t want to make her think it´s because of another woman...).

[Alexia]

I agree with that interpretation. I don't see why this as some sign that Tyrion is a monstrous beast, though.

It is not a sign that he is a monstrous beast. It is a sign that he is delusional with respect to Sansa.

Tyrion tried a whole hell of a lot harder than anyone else ever did to improve Sansa's life, even if he failed miserably.

He doesn't. He really doesn't. The Tyrells tried a lot harder to improve her life. Sandor Clegane tried a lot harder to improve her life, and blamed himself for not doing more. Tyrion is one of her jailers. He doesn't try to improve her life any more than Tywin and Kevan tried to improve her life.

Could he have been worse to her? Certainly. But he certainly doesn't try "a whole hell of a lot harder than anyone else did" to improve her life.

He intended to get her away from Kings' Landing, too, and when Joffrey was tormenting her on their wedding night he said 'she is no longer yours to torment, monster' or something to that effect.

He was planning to leave KL because he realized that Joff would have him killed as soon as he could. That decision didn't have anything to do with Sansa.

And Tywin and Kevan immediately expressed upset over what Joff wanted to do to her and refused his request for the head. Did they try a "whole hell of a lot harder than anyone else ever did" to improve her life?

[iamthedave]

It is not a sign that he is a monstrous beast. It is a sign that he is delusional with respect to Sansa.

Save that he repeatedly empathizes with and shows a clear understanding of her feelings and why she feels them. He deludes himself once or twice that they might have a happy marriage, yes. Well damn him for trying to be hopeful!

He doesn't. He really doesn't. The Tyrells tried a lot harder to improve her life.

You mean they intrigued to steal Winterfell for themselves, right? They were oh-so supportive once she got married off, weren't they? Oh wait no, they completely abandoned her. Tyrion cared more for Sansa the person than the Tyrell contingent ever did.

But he certainly doesn't try "a whole hell of a lot harder than anyone else did" to improve her life.

Oh really? Who was it on the battlements shouting at King Joff about having the Kingsguard beat her, then?

And Tywin and Kevan immediately expressed upset over what Joff wanted to do to her and refused his request for the head. Did they try a "whole hell of a lot harder than anyone else ever did" to improve her life?

I didn't see either of them on the battlements, and doubt Tywin would have broken it up, either. Kevan probably would but he seems to be the 'other' half-decent Lannister.

Jamie is changing. He may have not cared for his children in the past, but his behaviour in regards to Tommen showed how he was starting to care (remember when they spoke during Tywin´s funeral?). As for his feelings towards Cersei, he has growed wise about her real self, and a part of him loathes her, but when he watches her completely crushed, he won´t be able to turn his back. He won´t ask her about Lancel or whatever when she becomes a ruin due to pain; she is, after all, the person he loved most for most of his life...

As for Brienne, she isn´t relevant here: I don´t think they are going to speak about her; she is irrelevant to Cersei, who couldn´t never conceive his brother falling in love with such a woman, and isn´t likely to even think about her in any way (she sees her as to much below herself to even remember her); as for Jamie, I doubt he is likely so speak about Brienne to Cersei, specially if he falls in love with her (Jamie will accept to become her Hand, not to become her lover again; and he won´t want to make her think it´s because of another woman...).

It was in his most recent, DWD chapter where he said he would go to Kings Landing and essentially hand Tommen and Myrcella the death sentence.

I love Jaime, but he's like Tyrion: The guy he cares for most of all is standing in his own shoes. He wants to do this because it's objectively speaking the right thing to do, admitting to a heinous crime (in Westeros) that has split the realm and ultimately caused uncounted deaths and unmeasurable misery.

He's realized she never loved him. She's the woman who used her womanly parts to bind him to her like a servant the way she has with plenty of others. Claiming that Brienne isn't relevant here is basically saying his entire AFFC character arc isn't relevant here. Brienne is the reason Jaime begins to change, and I must also point out, if he doesn't die very early on in AWOW, she's also going to be the reason he even gets to Kings' Landing.

There's no way, in even the most fanciful scenarios, that Jaime gets away from the Brotherhood without Brienne being involved and/or helping him directly.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Jaime will never be Hand, even if he survives the BWV, because Cersei will never be Queen Regent again. Never. The walk of shame's main purpose was exactly to ensure that. The only chance of her to have any power is to run to Casterly Rock, preferentially with Tommen. Anything else is death.

[iamthedave]

Save that she's now got UnGregor, and Varys seems to be hedging his bets on Cersei going on exactly the way she was before.

[Hound's She-wolf]

I think Cersei comes back in a BIG way. Earlier I posted that I think she's gonna start some shit with the Faith and the Tyrells. I hope it is spectacular.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

It is not a sign that he is a monstrous beast. It is a sign that he is delusional with respect to Sansa.

His brief wooing of her (on the wedding night!) is to me a perfect example of Lannister pride and greed: not only has Tyrion and his family (whom he represents) taken everything from her -- family, friends, home, birthright, freedom, dignity -- now he wants her to give him her love. To collaborate in her own oppression. Delusional indeed.

The slaughter of her family and her virtual imprisonment are what doomed this marriage. Tyrion couldn't undo these things by promising her good sex or a trip to Casterly Rock, and they can never be undone. So the poster above who said Tyrion couldn't do anything right is absolutely correct. He is the enemy, nice be damned. There's just no happily-ever-after for this couple.

[Alexia]

Save that he repeatedly empathizes with and shows a clear understanding of her feelings and why she feels them. He deludes himself once or twice that they might have a happy marriage, yes. Well damn him for trying to be hopeful!

*sighs*

Anyone who is hopeful he might have a happy marriage with a little girl, who was married to steal her inheritance when she already had a betrothal, who is held hostage for over a year and tortured by members of his family, whose nephew cut her father's head off before her eyes, who is a leading member of a war against her family, who has her surprised on her wedding day and in front of the altar ten minutes later is A FUCKING IDIOT. There is no way around it. Tyrion's capacity for self-delusion is absolutely astounding.

Tyrion is a smart man when it comes to many things but when it comes to women in general and Sansa in particular he is A FUCKING IDIOT. It is his primary weakness and flaw, that he is unable to see the women's motivations. Acknowledging this is not an unreasonable attack on him, it is a statement of fact.

You mean they intrigued to steal Winterfell for themselves, right? They were oh-so supportive once she got married off, weren't they? Oh wait no, they completely abandoned her. Tyrion cared more for Sansa the person than the Tyrell contingent ever did.

I mean they offered her the opportunity to be the Lady of Highgarden (Tyrion's marriage to her was a straight power grab, whereas the Tyrell marriage gave her something in return). They asked her for her consent to the marriage (Tyrion kept it hidden from her until his sister was sent to drag her in front of a priest at sword point). They took her riding and hunting, played games with her, taught her to play the harp, and welcomed her as a part of the family (Tyrion virtually ignored her).

Saying that Tyrion cared more for her than the Tyrell contingent... well... :lmao: Tyrion doesn't know anything about Sansa the person.

Oh really? Who was it on the battlements shouting at King Joff about having the Kingsguard beat her, then?

When was he on any battlements shouting about how the KG beat her? Actually, you know who behaved better in the matter of the beatings? Jaime. He tore the KG members a new one over beating her, and rightfully so. Tyrion entirely ignored the situation until he walked in on it, at which point he stopped it. But Cersei would have stopped it too (Sansa feels safer when she's around, and Joff was embarrassed and upset when Tyrion threatened to send for his mother). Kevan certainly would have, and so would Tywin. Tywin refused to let Joff make her kiss the head and didn't disagree with Tyrion's summation of him afterward as being Aerys III, only coming up with a desperate "there is still time."

[1234567]

I think Cersei comes back in a BIG way. Earlier I posted that I think she's gonna start some shit with the Faith and the Tyrells. I hope it is spectacular.

Indeed Cersei is going to exit KL in a Whirlwind of destruction before heading back to the Rock. In a rather sad way I have been trying to figure out what happens to characters from a POV angle. We always need a POV in KL, so after Sansa and Tyrion left, we got Cersei and her dementedness. Cersei can now only leave KL when another POV rocks into town shortly before or after her exit. There are a few contenders for who this might be and if it is certain POVs, then the story might have gone down a particular route.

For example:

Arya: Kills Ser Swyft's lovable bodyguards and heads back to KL and assumes a new identity in the Red Keep as a servant or something. If this is the case then Cersei may well die quite soon. We also get to see another pair of eyes on the Tyrells. This is one of the few POVs that lets Cersei stay in KL, but ensures her death.

Connington: With a victorious King Aegon. For this to happen then the Tyrells will either have been defeated or switched sides. Tommen maybe dead in a parallel but with more finesse killing of Tommen, leaving Margery free to marry Aegon and become Queen for the 3rd time. Cersei will then have fled back to the Rock as it is the only natural conclusion I can reach with that situation.

Arienne: Equals a slightly altered take on the above.

Sansa: I think those tapestries that LF wants are the fabled Dragon Banners from the first book. LF will be in talks with Connington and the Tyrells and pull another move like he did with the Lannisters and Tyrells. Namely arranging for Sansa to marry Aegon, as with her comes the bent knees of the Vale, the Riverlands and the North. The Westerlands would be alone in the 7 Kingdoms. Cersei will again have to have fled to the Rock, or finally face Sansa in her role as the younger Queen.

Anyway, these are all highly speculative!

[Winterfell is Burning]

Save that she's now got UnGregor, and Varys seems to be hedging his bets on Cersei going on exactly the way she was before.

But she can only assume the Regency if the Small Council votes on her. The SC is Tyrell dominated and will choose Mace.

She can create chaos, but not as ruling queen.

[House Martell]

Tyrion is a smart man when it comes to many things but when it comes to women in general and Sansa in particular he is A FUCKING IDIOT. It is his primary weakness and flaw, that he is unable to see the women's motivations. Acknowledging this is not an unreasonable attack on him, it is a statement of fact.

I mean they offered her the opportunity to be the Lady of Highgarden (Tyrion's marriage to her was a straight power grab, whereas the Tyrell marriage gave her something in return). They asked her for her consent to the marriage (Tyrion kept it hidden from her until his sister was sent to drag her in front of a priest at sword point). They took her riding and hunting, played games with her, taught her to play the harp, and welcomed her as a part of the family (Tyrion virtually ignored her).

Saying that Tyrion cared more for her than the Tyrell contingent... well... :lmao: Tyrion doesn't know anything about Sansa the person.

Tyrion may have been delusional, but he was just trying to make the best of a terrible situation. He comments to his father and uncle several times about the absurdity of the situation. Yes it was crazy for him to think they could have a happy marriage but does that make him a monster for dreaming of a loving wife and happy marriage?

The Tyrells did not gave a crap about Sansa. They cared about what she knew about Joff, and they cared about her claim to Winterfell. They may have thought it would be a nice little side benefit to get her out of KL but her well being was never their chief concern, they wanted to use her just like everyone else (they were just more sneaky about it). They even put her is position to be possibly blamed for poisoning of the King, actually having her smuggle the poison in (i'm sure Tyrion was their main plan for a patsy but had the drunk old knight/fool Dontos not come through Cersei would have had Sansa's head in a heart beat.)

[Hound's She-wolf]

Indeed Cersei is going to exit KL in a Whirlwind of destruction before heading back to the Rock. In a rather sad way I have been trying to figure out what happens to characters from a POV angle. We always need a POV in KL, so after Sansa and Tyrion left, we got Cersei and her dementedness. Cersei can now only leave KL when another POV rocks into town shortly before or after her exit. There are a few contenders for who this might be and if it is certain POVs, then the story might have gone down a particular route.

For example:

Arya: Kills Ser Swyft's lovable bodyguards and heads back to KL and assumes a new identity in the Red Keep as a servant or something. If this is the case then Cersei may well die quite soon. We also get to see another pair of eyes on the Tyrells. This is one of the few POVs that lets Cersei stay in KL, but ensures her death.

Connington: With a victorious King Aegon. For this to happen then the Tyrells will either have been defeated or switched sides. Tommen maybe dead in a parallel but with more finesse killing of Tommen, leaving Margery free to marry Aegon and become Queen for the 3rd time. Cersei will then have fled back to the Rock as it is the only natural conclusion I can reach with that situation.

Arienne: Equals a slightly altered take on the above.

Sansa: I think those tapestries that LF wants are the fabled Dragon Banners from the first book. LF will be in talks with Connington and the Tyrells and pull another move like he did with the Lannisters and Tyrells. Namely arranging for Sansa to marry Aegon, as with her comes the bent knees of the Vale, the Riverlands and the North. The Westerlands would be alone in the 7 Kingdoms. Cersei will again have to have fled to the Rock, or finally face Sansa in her role as the younger Queen.

Anyway, these are all highly speculative!

Two other possible POVs are the Sand Snakes that are going to KL. And one is on the small council.

[Alexia]

Yes it was crazy for him to think they could have a happy marriage but does that make him a monster for dreaming of a loving wife and happy marriage?

You are beating a strawman. No one has called him a monster for dreaming of a loving wife and a happy marriage. Please quote the post in which this took place.

The Tyrells did not gave a crap about Sansa. They cared about what she knew about Joff, and they cared about her claim to Winterfell. They may have thought it would be a nice little side benefit to get her out of KL but her well being was never their chief concern, they wanted to use her just like everyone else (they were just more sneaky about it). They even put her is position to be possibly blamed for poisoning of the King, actually having her smuggle the poison in (i'm sure Tyrion was their main plan for a patsy but had the drunk old knight/fool Dontos not come through Cersei would have had Sansa's head in a heart beat.)

The Tyrells wanted to use her too, but the time Sansa spent with them was significantly happier than any other point in KL since her father's death. They improved her life greatly and after her marriage to Tyrion, her quality of life took a steep and sudden drop and she sank into an extremely deep depression.

They weren't perfect nor completely altruistic, but saying that Tyrion did more to improve her situation than any other character, or that he cared about her more than any other character is... completely unsupported by the text. Wishful thinking, in fact. The Tyrells did much more to improve her life, and Sandor Clegane is probably the only one of the bunch who genuinely cares about Sansa the person and nothing more.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Damn, Alexia, that lobster is making me hungry.

Anyhoo, I think the text supports that the only thing Sansa wanted after the death of her father was to get the hell out of King's Landing and to get far, far, away from the Lannisters. The Tyrells could have made that happen, Tyrion, obviously, could not. Escape was the real benefit to Sansa of a Tyrell match, but under the circumstances it was a considerable benefit.

[Hound's She-wolf]

Damn, Alexia, that lobster is making me hungry.

Anyhoo, I think the text supports that the only thing Sansa wanted after the death of her father was to get the hell out of King's Landing and to get far, far, away from the Lannisters. The Tyrells could have made that happen, Tyrion, obviously, could not. Escape was the real benefit to Sansa of a Tyrell match, but under the circumstances it was a considerable benefit.

I laugh everytime I see that lobster hugging the onion, hehe.

The Tyrells did offer an escape route, but they just wanted to use her too, I think she still would have ended up in a gilded cage, just with more rosebushes around.