What will become of the Lannister siblings

[Alexia]

Gendry? Why Gendry? :shocked:

Well, I kinda ship Sansa and Daven Lannister but that's because I love Daven so much and there's something kinda wrong with me... maybe she can fulfill my fantasies by killing him instead?

[1234567]

(I kinda ship Sansa and Gendry but that's a whole nother story).

(I kinda like the idea of her marrying Stannis no matter how awful and wrong it is)

[nara]

Why should he need to find this out? So that he can absolve himself of the guilt he felt over her treatment? I think Tysha will turn out to be exactly as she was presented to us: an innocent girl who was enamoured with Tyrion and was mercilessly ill treated by Tywin. The whole problem with Jaime and Tyrion I agree is that they do idealise these two relationships, but that's their problem. The women have always been presented to readers as I think Martin intended to. We're not really meant to excuse Tyrion's treatment of Tysha (although many people do) and we're definitely not meant to see Jaime as some hero for deserting Cersei... although... given how Martin destroyed Cersei's character in AFFC, maybe we are.

I think it's more interesting in my scenario because even if Tysha is after his money, it still doesn't justify gang-rape. So what if a poor girl wants to marry up? He could have still been happy with her. That's what Tyrion needs to learn--people don't need to be perfect for you to love them and for them to love you back. He has the same issue with Shae. As long as she's "devoted" to him, he's fine with her, but the moment she acts like a coward (which I think most people might do in that situation), he murders her. What she did was wrong, but he could have forgiven her and just fled to safety without killing her. Also, if Tysha was after his money it might make him wonder if his murder of Tywin was justified...Just more interesting for character development.

[Silverin]

(I kinda ship Sansa and Gendry but that's a whole nother story).

(Me too. Though I am fine with Pod as well. Both are hundred times better than the creepy old man trio)

[Wouter]

The Dave wasn't claiming that no one ever saw past Tyrion's dwarfism to appreciate his good points, he conceded there were characters who did so. His point was that Tyrion wasn't an asshole to those characters, but treated them "with kindness and respect"... that's the bit you all take issue with, though, at least in the case of Sansa (and Cat, as you said).

My point was that Catelyn and Sansa did look past his dwarfism and way preferred him over Jaime or Cersei (respectively), because of his actions. However, after he married Sansa Catelyn viewed him as every bit as bad as the rest, and Sansa stopped making much of a distinction between him and Cersei - they're both highly unreliable Lannisters. Neither of that can be blamed on his dwarfism.

So, let me get this straight. Tyrion shouldn't have married her, but now that he has, he shouldn't try to honor his vows to her. But he shouldn't humiliate her by whoring, either (the guy has needs, he's going to need to fulfill them somehow). He should actively try to avoid her, and the guy's a dick for trying to reach out to her, but he's conversely a dick for leaving her so isolated. And above all, he should never, ever, have the gaul to care about her as his wife because of the circumstances surrounding their marriage? I mean, whether you think he should have married her or not, they are married. He's making the best of a bad situation, IMO, even if he was a party to the creation of said bad situation.

Tyrion can do all the whoring he wants, Sansa will be the last person to care about that! As for avoiding her: sleeping in the same bed every night was what opened him up to Sansa tensing up (as is a perfectly normal reaction). Leaving her alone is possible, I'm sure Tyrek didn't used to sleep with little lady Ermesande either! Nor did he need to have dinner with her every day, why not encourage her to dine with company more suitable for her (like those Tyrell cousins)? Why not encourage her to play the harp, to practice her voice for singing, to write poetry or whatever else Sansa likes to do? Why continue to confront her 24/7?

And as for reaching out to her - blabbing about Casterly Rock is not the way to do so. If he really wanted to reach out, to break through her armour, maybe he should have been really honest and tackled the circumstances of their wedding - explaining they had been told about Willas. That would have gotten Sansa's attention, at least. And he could even have reached a deal with her, promising to leave her alone for a while, promising he would protect her from Joffrey, promising she could name and raise her children the way she wanted, attempting to get her agreement after the fact. Or if she wouldn't ever want to agree, he could at least work out an agreement that both would pretend in public while each did their own thing in private (and he would just acknowledge her children if need be). But Tyrion never really tackled the issues between them. For him, she was still a captive and a young girl who could just not be trusted, not someone he would consider to negotiate with.

But If Tyrion ever wanted her cooperation, negotiating terms with her is exactly what he should have done.

But after going back to the passage again, I tend to lean now more toward the notion that Tywin would not accept Tyrion's refusal. Tywin tells Tyrion he "must needs take her maidenhead" on the wedding night so no one can say the marriage wasn't consummated, and rules out Lancel as an option when Kevan says he would be too weak to consummate that marriage. As Kevan and Tywin discuss possible other Lannisters, Tyrion "lets them have their byplay" b/c it "was all for his benefit anyway"... in other words, it was all talk. The decision had been made, as Tywin made clear at the end of the chapter: "You will marry Sansa Stark, Tyrion. And soon." The only time Tyrion ever disobeyed Tywin was by bringing Shae to KL, and even that he didn't have the balls to do out in the open. He had to hide it. He couldn't exactly "hide" not marrying Sansa.

Tyrion could disobey. The Blackfish did refuse his brother; it cost him, but he did. Tywin and Kevan took great pains to convince Tyrion that it was best for him to marry Sansa (which is why Tywin makes sure to mention all those failed marriage proposals he made for Tyrion, to diminish Tyrion's self-worth); if Tywin could just order him and that would be it, they had no need to bother with all that. Besides, Tywin has only one reason to want Tyrion (as opposed to Lancel or Tion or someone else) to marry Sansa, and that is to make sure Tyrion has given up on Casterly Rock. As long as Tywin is convinced Tyrion won't make a play for the Rock, it's OK for him.

If Tyrion had been disgusted by the idea, his reaction would have been way different and a confrontation would have followed. And I don't think Tyrion would back down easily, nor that Sansa's marriage would be that important for Tywin.

My suspicion is, whether it's right or good or proper or not, that she will end up with Tyrion. Just seems to me that's the way he's setting it up thematically.

Might be, but I only see that if Tyrion would become king in the end, which makes a wife for him a very important affair for the entire realm. If it would be just about Casterly Rock, I don't see what Sansa would be needed for.

Is he heartsick at her absence and does he spend all his time pining for her? No, but I don't think it's necessarily the case that he doesn't want her back. That remains to be seen...

I got the impression in ADWD that he hasn't let go of the idea of Sansa yet. He does express his frustration a few times (I remember the "all the girls cry when I kiss them" line, an oblique Sansa reference IMO, and there was the time he called her "false"). And in his last chapter, there is a rather ambigious line when he is asked what he misses: "Tysha. Jaime. Shae. My wife, the wife I hardly knew".

I still wonder who he means with "the wife I hardly knew". If it is Tysha, then she is named twice in the sequence unlike the rest, rather confusingly. If it is Sansa, it is surprising he misses her given how horrible their relationship was. I guess he "hardly knew" both Tysha and Sansa.

[Tini]

Because he isn't a stupid man and saw that she spent her time doing nothing but praying after they were married? Tyrion's not a stupid man. He really isn't. Willfully blind at times, but not stupid. I don't think he cares about the fact that she's isolated and all the wrong done to her, because he's too busy feeling sorry for himself that she sexually rejected the dwarf. He even says that every moment he's with her, he can never forget what he is because of the way she tenses up and looks at him when he climbs into her bed at night.

As I said, he is isolated himself. How would an isolated person know that another person is isolated, and suffering from being isolated? He cannot even do anything about his own isolation.

[Woman of War]

I hope that in the further volumes there will happen a certain deconstruction of the hierarchical system of westeros, especially concerning the feudal class system, as it would be logical when it comes to economic necessities after all those wars and the supernatural magic attacs.......

How does this concern the "shipping" questions?

I believe that as well the strict rules concerning relationships will be put into perspective. Although Sansa is a highborn Lady and views herself as such - could not be there a learning process for her and she finds someone who fits better to her idea of a quiet domestic private life, if the favored Virginal Queen option ( not necessarily of all of Westeros, maybe in a more spiritual sense ) does not happen. Someone who is not from top nobilty or a "bastard"......

She is pious and rather conservative, so far she does not show any desire for executing power, this would not make her any happier, she needs someone who teaches her how to laugh, I still believe a boy her age.

Same for Tyrion: although he is so fond of his Lannister name the learning process for him could, hopefully should, be that he is someone on his own, can have a position in life without being a Lannister, but simply a really clever guy who makes use of his knowledge and ability to rule and organize and achieve meaningful things with all his political abilities. So a woman of considerable standing herself, simply someone who knows to mouth back, has quite a bit of wisdom in life acquired and is bright and amibitious about learning, would be better. Not necessarily someone of high nobility, maybe even someone who worked as prostitute and does not need a man for survival, the more she could love Tyrion by true choice. He is not the prince for a woman who is in need of a prince.

Although - Dany does not need a man for survival either......... :)

So we have to wait and see what the god of Ice and Fire will give us........

And I should really stop being sentimental and have my brain washed with coffee instead of red wine and chocolate......and see the hard realities of westeros life

[Hound's She-wolf]

Gendry? Why Gendry? :shocked:

Well, I kinda ship Sansa and Daven Lannister but that's because I love Daven so much and there's something kinda wrong with me... maybe she can fulfill my fantasies by killing him instead?

I like Gendry becase he is a knight, he is a nice person, physically tall and strong (her type), so he may be able to restore some of her faith in the knightly ideals, he wouldn't marry her for political reasons. I immediately thought of him when Jaime made the comment about Sansa being better off married to a blacksmith. I thought, aha! We got one of those.

I never got the Arya/Gendry shipping, I got a more brother and sisterly vibe from them, I never got anything romantic.

(I kinda like the idea of her marrying Stannis no matter how awful and wrong it is)

WhaWhaWhat?

Oh, and Gendry already gets along with her sister and knows her unMom. This way Arya wouldn't be tempted to kill her husband, the other two we've mentioned would have to sleep with one eye open. (And I'm not including Stannis in that because I just don't know what to say about Stan/San).

[brashcandy]

@Rapsie, that Stannis/Sansa ship is wrong. And you know it's wrong :P

And as for the Sansa as virgin Queen, why in the name of the seven would this be a good idea? The girl has always wanted a family with children. I think she'll become a power player but she'll use it to grant herself the life she wants (yes with Sandor Clegane)

GRRM just needs to give these characters the lives they want at the end of the day - Tyrion clearly desires power, so I suppose he'll get Casterly Rock. I don't see him finding out where whores go because he's not about to settle down and be some sweet husband to Tysha.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

I've thought of a bittersweet ending for Tyrion's story, meaning that he wins some and loses some:

1) He and his sellswords succeed in taking Casterly Rock.

2) He kills Cersei, she dies knowing that Tyrion's beaten her and her father.

3) Shortly thereafter Tyrion dies of a pox he got from a whore in Essos. Or maybe he catches it when he finds out where all the whores have gone. Whatevers, he has reaped what he's sown.*

4) Casterly Rock goes to Daven Lannister who has not, in fact, married his stoat.

*Edited because it's sown, not sewn, fer pete's sake.

[1234567]

@Rapsie, that Stannis/Sansa ship is wrong. And you know it's wrong :P

Hehehehe! Awful and wrong! It was an idea that popped into my head, as you know he needs a new wife and a nice one and she....clearly hasn't suffered enough! They are both so proper, I actually thought they might suit each other. Also she'd get Dragonstone: the cutest in castle in Westeros!

[House Martell]

Wow this thread has been busy since last night!

I don't want to rehash any arguments but let me make some points, if Tyrion is going to be vilified (which is reasonable) it should be for accurate reasons.

-Sansa was close to if not actually 14 when married (not 12), Margery Tyrell is 16 and married 3x, so a marriage at 14 that Tyrion allows (yes allows is an ugly term but again in relative perspective) to go unconsummated.

-Yes he treated Illyrios servants horrible, but you can't judge him in a vacuum. He's in a terrible place (mentally/emotionally), he's hit bottom and wants others to hurt as well. It's not like he's just some spoiled rich boy torturing people for fun (Joffery), he has had legitimate pain in his life. This doesn't excuse his actions but i'll evoke some cliches of "walk a mile in his shoes" / "...cast the first stone".

I def don't see Tyrion or Cersei surviving the story, Jamie might live but only if he ends up "Taking the Black" (otherwise he's a goner too). Someone mentioned the "Greek tragedy" aspect of the Lannister siblings and I absolutely agree. Going back to how it's mentioned that "Lann the Trickster" acquired Casterly Rock through deception, not "earning" it, so setting up the whole house to fall. In Tyrions case specifically if anyone is going to go on to have a somewhat "normal" life it will prob be Sansa, and for that it would be best if Tyrion died...

[Tini]

2) He kills Cersei, she dies knowing that Tyrion's beaten her and her father.

No, I don't see Tyrion killing Cersei. Not in cold blood, as your scenario suggests. He was scarcely able to kill his father. It is much more likely that Cersei succeeds in killing Tyrion. She has been trying for some time now, by placing gold on his head.

How about: Tyrion tries to make peace with Jaime and Cersei. He meets Jaime first, and they forgive each other. Then some headhunter recognizes Tyrion, cuts his head off, and brings it to Cersei. Jaime arrives in time to see his sister's joy over Tyrion's death, freaks out and kills her.

[Ser Lepus]

No, I don't see Tyrion killing Cersei. Not in cold blood, as your scenario suggests. He was scarcely able to kill his father. It is much more likely that Cersei succeeds in killing Tyrion. She has been trying for some time now, by placing gold on his head.

How about: Tyrion tries to make peace with Jaime and Cersei. He meets Jaime first, and they forgive each other. Then some headhunter recognizes Tyrion, cuts his head off, and brings it to Cersei. Jaime arrives in time to see his sister's joy over Tyrion's death, freaks out and kills her.

Edited:

I think that Cersei will at some point make Jaime her Hand (she has been always saying she wanted to do so), and he will wear the same chain of golden hands as his brother and father (the same one Tyrion strangled Shae with).

We know Pycelle is giving Cersei drops of the Tears Of Lys; small doses of it are an effective medicine against insomnia and nightmares (and Cersei, who is already suffering from those since AFFC will have even more problems to sleep peacefully when her remaining children die) but Cersei will, either accidentally or on purpose, take an overdose of them after she loses her last child, and she will fall in a deep coma (whe know that an overdose of the Tears makes you fall into "a sleep that never ends").

Jamie will finish Cersei strangling her with her chain of golden hands, and afterwards he will kill himself (or let somebody else kill him) and both siblings will leave the world together, as they have always thought they would.

This would fulfill beautifully the prophecy, plus would add the delicious irony of making the murder that she has been obssesing all this time a mercy killing:

“And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.”

One of the reasons GRRM has had Jamie´s hand cut is to make us dismiss him as the valoqar of the prophecy (since it says "hands", no "hand"), but he made Tyrion choke Shae with the chain to throw us a lead, so we have an oportunity to discover the truth.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

I'm 95% sure that Sansa was 12, I'm just too lazy to look up the quote.

I'm also going to stick to my crackpot theory that Brienne's going to kill Jaime and thereby become Azor Ahai Reborn.

[Tini]

I def don't see Tyrion or Cersei surviving the story, Jamie might live but only if he ends up "Taking the Black" (otherwise he's a goner too).

Jaime has to live long enough to make more entries in the White Book.

We first hear that he thought that Barristan Selmy might have added more about his life when he wrote in the book that he lost his hand and was returned to KL by Brienne of Tarth. He looked at the pages and realized that he could write in the book whatever he wanted. Later he repeats that he can write whatever he wants but that he will not write lies. If he does not write lies, that only leaves the truth. That fact leaves him stumped. I think we'll see him returning at least once to add some noteworthy truths to the book.

[Alexia]

-Sansa was close to if not actually 14 when married (not 12),

No, she was 12. Tyrion asked her how old she was on the wedding night and she said she would turn 13 in a month.

[Tini]

Edited:

I think that Cersei will at some point make Jaime her Hand (she has been always saying she wanted to do so), and he will wear the same chain of golden hands as his brother and father (the same one Tyrion strangled Shae with).

We know Pycelle is giving Cersei drops of the Tears Of Lys; small doses of it are an effective medicine against insomnia and nightmares (and Cersei, who is already suffering from those since AFFC will have even more problems to sleep peacefully when her remaining children die) but Cersei will, either accidentally or on purpose, take an overdose of them after she loses her last child, and she will fall in a deep coma (whe know that an overdose of the Tears makes you fall into "a sleep that never ends").

Jamie will finish Cersei strangling her with her chain of golden hands, and afterwards he will kill himself (or let somebody else kill him) and both siblings will leave the world together, as they have always thought they would.

This would fulfill beautifully the prophecy, plus would add the delicious irony of making the murder that she has been obssesing all this time a mercy killing:

“And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.”

One of the reasons GRRM has had Jamie´s hand cut is to make us dismiss him as the valoqar of the prophecy (since it says "hands", no "hand"), but he made Tyrion choke Shae with the chain to throw us a lead, so we have an oportunity to discover the truth.

I like that theory, except for one point. Cersei will not make Jaime her Hand. She already tried to do so in AFFC. Jaime turned her down because he is King's Guard, not a politician. Cersei will not repeat the offer Jaime spurned, and I don't think Jaime would reconsider his answer if she did.

[ARYa_Nym]

I like Gendry becase he is a knight, he is a nice person, physically tall and strong (her type), so he may be able to restore some of her faith in the knightly ideals, he wouldn't marry her for political reasons. I immediately thought of him when Jaime made the comment about Sansa being better off married to a blacksmith. I thought, aha! We got one of those.

That was the first time where GRRM used someone else to reference Arya. Jaime described Gendry and Hot Pie. Then in AFFC Ser Hyle thinks Willow would marry Gendry and Brienne's inner thoughts lead us to Arya.

"...Gendry was the closest thing to a man grown, but it was Willow shouting all the orders, as if she were a queen in her castle and the other children were no more than servants.If she were highborn, command would comenaturally to her, and deference to them.

Brienne wondered whether Willow might be more than she appeared. The girl was too young and too plain to

be Sansa Stark, but she was of the right age to be theyounger sister, and even Lady Catelyn had said that Arya lacked her sister’s beauty. Brown hair, brown eyes, skinny .. . could it be? Arya Stark’s hair was brown, she recalled, but Brienne was not sure of the color of her eyes. Brownand brown, was that it?"

[Ser Lepus]

I like that theory, except for one point. Cersei will not make Jaime her Hand. She already tried to do so in AFFC. Jaime turned her down because he is King's Guard, not a politician. Cersei will not repeat the offer Jaime spurned, and I don't think Jaime would reconsider his answer if she did.

She will repeat the offer, and he will take it, if they think it´s the only way to save their children. Cersei is already learning that she is not secure as she thought; when she was captive of the Great Septon, she went begging to her brother.

As for Jamie, he may not be a politician, but of lately he seems to slowly be becoming one (see his work in the Riverlands); and in AFFC he already was making plans to force Cersei change her Council and name Kevan or Littlefinger her hand, so he may delude himself saying he is no politician, but his plans show something different...

When the next Lannister child dies, Cersei will be both broken and terrified, will beg in tears to his brother, and he will accept.