[ADwD Spoliers] Why young Griff is the real deal!

[Wouter]

Dany knows almost nothing of the Free Cities and their customs. She can name them, which I suppose counts for something. She's spent a while running from city to city, and she lived in one house in Pentos for a bit, but I see very little indication that she's absorbed vast amounts of knowledge about the intricacies of Braavosi society. She didn't even seem to know who the Sorrowful Men were when one turned up to kill her. Jorah Mormont sure did, though. And if she knows Braavos, why does she never even think of trying to get a loan from the Iron Bank when she's strapped for cash in Meereen? Wouldn't that be one of the first things to consider? Not saying it would have been a good idea, but in her situation, why not?

Dany lived in Braavos for quite a while, and a small detail: the sorrowful men have nothing to do with Braavos or the other free cities, they're from Qarth (unlike the Faceless men). Braavos is very far from Meereen though, and I don't think Dany lacked in funds after she took first Astapor and then Meereen. Dany also speaks the language used in Pentos IIRC (some bastard variant of Valyrian, I suppose) as well as High Valyrian, the Westerosi tongue and Dothraki.

The only free cities she really knows are the ones she's conquered, she hates them, and by the time she was to get to the Iron Throne all of them will be either non-existent or irrelevant on the political landscape.

I'm not even sure Dany knows much about Pentos, save she can recognize a Pentoshi beard style when she sees one.

Dany has conquered exactly zero "free cities". Meereen, Astapor, Yunkai are not among the 9 so-called free cities, those are all on the western side of Essos, relatively close to Westeros (though Pentos and Braavos obviously more so than Volantis). Dany loves Braavos, it's the place she would like to live (house with the red door), and there is no indication she dislikes Pentos or the other 7.

[Gogossos]

The quick length of this thread should have told me another Dany debate was raging, with the same points being rehashed again and again. However, I have a couple of small points.

Now Dany has no education whatsoever, but the problem with her is despite the fact that she decided to become a ruler and she has a living enciclopedia (Barristan) next to her she doesn't even try to learn anything from him.

Not true, it's just we only want her to learn about the Rebellion and Aerys' madness. Yet she's shown that she knows enough about her father's madness and the possibility it might have played in the Rebellion. However, she has indicated to Barristan she's not ready to hear about this yet but it doesn't mean she's not learning about Westeros from him. In ADWD she asked about her parent's true loves, she knows about Lyanna and Rhaegar. She asked Quentyn about the original Daenerys. I seem to recall the Shavepate telling Barristan that Dany loved stories about Westerosi history.

She got completely fooled by Brown Ben Plumm.

No again. Ben Plumm changed sides after Dany told him that she's not willing to unleash dragons on the Yunkai'i. That's different from coming to Dany under false pretences then pulling the rug from under her, which what your statement infers.

Alas, the rabid Dany-lovers seem to have had their way with it; don’t they have their own thread somewhere? }-;

Lots of people tend to make sweeping statements about Dany's sexual prowess or her ability to rule (with negative connotations) and many like me tend to leap to her defence. If that makes me a Dany fanboy so be it - but I can say in all the instances I can recall (including this one) it's because Dany has been unfairly attacked, not the other way round. I haven't seen similar attacks on Arya for instance (at least with the same venom) and I would also leap to her defence too.

[Été]

Not true, it's just we only want her to learn about the Rebellion and Aerys' madness. Yet she's shown that she knows enough about her father's madness and the possibility it might have played in the Rebellion. However, she has indicated to Barristan she's not ready to hear about this yet but it doesn't mean she's not learning about Westeros from him. In ADWD she asked about her parent's true loves, she knows about Lyanna and Rhaegar. She asked Quentyn about the original Daenerys. I seem to recall the Shavepate telling Barristan that Dany loved stories about Westerosi history.

I don't think this is necessarily her fault, because she's also grown up believing that she and Viserys are entitled to rule: the Iron Throne is hers by right and she hopes that will be enough to make the people accept her. No-one has dared to explain to her the reasons why Robert's Rebellion happened, and accordingly she has no interest in differentiating between the "Usurper's dogs" - who are of course the major players in Westerosi politics now. She loves the stories, yes, but I'd be very surprised if she's able to fit them all together into any sort of coherent narrative.

Dany seems to be working with scraps of information about Westeros gleaned as a little girl: returning to the Quentyn example, she knows the fairy tale about the frog prince, but has no idea who Daenerys I was. How would she fare in negotiations with the Dornish when she doesn't know the first thing about Dornish relations with the Iron Throne? What does she know about the North, or the Blackfyres, or the Ironborn, or the Wall? She hoped Meereen would teach her the basics of day-to-day ruling, but her ignorance suggests she is woefully unprepared for the challenges specific to the Seven Kingdoms.

[Silverin]

Not true, it's just we only want her to learn about the Rebellion and Aerys' madness. Yet she's shown that she knows enough about her father's madness and the possibility it might have played in the Rebellion. However, she has indicated to Barristan she's not ready to hear about this yet but it doesn't mean she's not learning about Westeros from him. In ADWD she asked about her parent's true loves, she knows about Lyanna and Rhaegar. She asked Quentyn about the original Daenerys. I seem to recall the Shavepate telling Barristan that Dany loved stories about Westerosi history.

It is not love stories, fairy tales and legends she should be interested in but in the hard realitiy. And sadly mainly that is the one thing she does not want to hear. Sansa's storyline already proved that those don't worth much in KL. And just what does it say about her knowledge about westeros and its history that she doesn't even know about the other Danaerys Targaryen whom after she was named? It does not make her a bad person just a bad ruler not fit for the Throne of Westeros. Those who love Dany often confuse the two thing.

No again. Ben Plumm changed sides after Dany told him that she's not willing to unleash dragons on the Yunkai'i. That's different from coming to Dany under false pretences then pulling the rug from under her, which what your statement infers.

Tyrion saw it right away that you can't trust in Plumm.

Lots of people tend to make sweeping statements about Dany's sexual prowess or her ability to rule (with negative connotations) and many like me tend to leap to her defence. If that makes me a Dany fanboy so be it - but I can say in all the instances I can recall (including this one) it's because Dany has been unfairly attacked, not the other way round. I haven't seen similar attacks on Arya for instance (at least with the same venom) and I would also leap to her defence too.

Well Arya gets quite a share of negative opinions too, but the reason there are not that many treads discussing her is because Arya do not want to rule a whole continent, and it doesn't seem like she would, so why would we discuss why she wouldn't make a good ruler? You confuse again Dany bashing and saying that she is a poor ruler. That is not the same. I have nothing against Dany as a person only Dany as a ruler. And you know when I was reading her ADwD chapters I felt that she herself does not like ruling, she is not happy with it. She feels suffocated in such an environment, and I don't think KL would be without political intrics ever, not at the end of the books and never. Political intrics is something anyone who ever wants to rule Westeros has to know how to do it, and Dany feels powerless from it. Honestly, seeing Dany as a person I don't think she could ever be happy as a ruler. So me not thinking that she would be the best on the Iron Throne is not because I hate her as a person (which I don't), but because she does not have the skills, and because of that she would become miserable from it. And just to disprove you that bad person=bad ruler I tell you that I hate tyrion but I still think he is way better than Dany when it comes to political intrics. Tyrion is someone who can handle those things, but on the other hand he is so horrible to women that I do not wish to any women him as a husband.

EDIT: Or for example I love Edmure but the thought as him on the Throne....shudders.....

[ARYa_Nym]

I'm confused as to why there is always an argument over whether or not Dany has the right to rule or if she will make a good ruler. In most cases in Westeros the King rules not the Queen. It's sort of a glass ceiling if you will. Cersei became Queen regent to Tommen and look how Tywin and Kevan wanted to "put her in her place." It's not some progressive society.

[CrypticWeirwood]

I don't think this is necessarily her fault, because she's also grown up believing that she and Viserys are entitled to rule: the Iron Throne is hers by right

You are right to point out that she has grown up believing that she and Viserys are entitled to rule.

That doesn't make it so.

If it were so, then Sir Arthur Dayne and the other two Kingsguard who died when he did would have been fled to Dragonstone to guard Viserys their king. Since they didn't, they clearly had other ideas about Viserys being entitled to rule.

Poor little Dany doesn't know that, though.

[Gogossos]

I don't think this is necessarily her fault, because she's also grown up believing that she and Viserys are entitled to rule: the Iron Throne is hers by right and she hopes that will be enough to make the people accept her.

When told by Barristan that she should leave Meereen because people in Westeros love her and are awaiting her return, her answer was "Well, if they love me so much then they can wait because I have stuff to do here" (paraphrasing of course). She's not desperate to rule Westeros, that's just something readers project onto her character based on her arc. She wants to rule because she's the last of her line and she's got responsibility for her House in that regard. But personally, she's always had other people of more concern: the dothraki, the lamb men, the slaves and even the Unsullied and now the Meereen folk. She's caused destraction in her wake (to her Eroeh the girl she tried and ultimately failed to save from rape and Astapor are the same thing). She knows her mistakes and tries to rectify them. And you know what, when she eventually arrives in Westeros the people might just accept her.

Dany seems to be working with scraps of information about Westeros gleaned as a little girl: returning to the Quentyn example, she knows the fairy tale about the frog prince, but has no idea who Daenerys I was. How would she fare in negotiations with the Dornish when she doesn't know the first thing about Dornish relations with the Iron Throne? What does she know about the North, or the Blackfyres, or the Ironborn, or the Wall? She hoped Meereen would teach her the basics of day-to-day ruling, but her ignorance suggests she is woefully unprepared for the challenges specific to the Seven Kingdoms.

Agreed that she has scraps of information. The reason why Tyrion knows so much is because using his brain, ie. reading a lot, was the only way a person like him could survive. Not only that, he like other highborn kids, grew up with maesters teaching them history and such. Dany was running for her life but that has made her a multi cultural kind of person. She has a broader outlook than a typical Westerosi lord but almost by definition she knows less of Westeros compared to them. But to say she's woefully unprepared because of that is overstating it a bit, Westeros is not only about the small council shenanigans.

It is not love stories, fairy tales and legends she should be interested in but in the hard realitiy.

So marrying someone else despite your feelings for another isn't hard reality? Even Barristan ponders the question of wasting thousands of life for the sake of love. Mostly we don't get to hear the actual stories she learns and never get to hear the lessons she draws from them. Like I said, just because we readers want her to learn something specific (that GRRM figures he doesn't want her to learn yet) doesn't mean we should dismiss what she is actually learning now.

Tyrion saw it right away that you can't trust in Plumm.

Dany doesn't trust sellswords either but it doesn't mean she can't use them. Her conversation with Barristan conveys exactly this point. Dany refused to use dragons, that's why Plumm left her side. Dany herself conceded this point to him when he explained himself. The fact that Tyrion recognised that Plumm's smile didn't reach his eyes is due to the way Tyrion's chapters are written - with anecdotal observations like these - and shouldn't be used against Dany, at least not in this case.

I'm confused as to why there is always an argument over whether or not Dany has the right to rule or if she will make a good ruler. In most cases in Westeros the King rules not the Queen. It's sort of a glass ceiling if you will. Cersei became Queen regent to Tommen and look how Tywin and Kevan wanted to "put her in her place." It's not some progressive society.

I doubt Dany, who has raised dragons from stones and an army from nothing, will want to simply hand over the reigns to someone else. Aegon, sooner or later, will have to decide what he will have to do if Dany doesn't not only bend her knee but marry him to legitimise his rule. Same thing with Jon, come to think of it. As it stands, as Kevan noticed, Dany is the only Targ without questioned credentials and has dragons to boot. She also has shown little regard for rules that she deems unfair or unjust (like slavery and hence male succession) and it's fair to assume she'll want to be a Queen on the Iron Throne (perhaps replaced by a bench :))

[ARYa_Nym]

Dany made Hizdahr a King which gave him control over Mereen. It's precisely why Daario asked her what kind of Queen she wanted to be. Westeros doesn't typically allow women to decide this though.

[Été]

Agreed that she has scraps of information. The reason why Tyrion knows so much is because using his brain, ie. reading a lot, was the only way a person like him could survive. Not only that, he like other highborn kids, grew up with maesters teaching them history and such. Dany was running for her life but that has made her a multi cultural kind of person. She has a broader outlook than a typical Westerosi lord but almost by definition she knows less of Westeros compared to them. But to say she's woefully unprepared is overstating it a bit, Westeros is not only about the small council shenanigans.

No, Westeros is about keeping seven disparate kingdoms in line, which requires some sort of sensitivity towards the needs and issues in each of those kingdoms. Meereen is teaching her about governing a city-state, not a vast federal realm.

By growing up in Essos, Dany and Aegon are both at a disadvantage when it comes to Westerosi culture and politics, but Aegon's carers have tried to mitigate that by systematic education and doing their best to replicate a Westerosi heir's lifestyle on the lam (septa, maester, master-at-arms, governance etc). Dany hasn't had that luxury, and I think if she ever makes it to the Iron Throne, she is going to have a very steep learning curve ahead of her. To a large extent, she will be at the mercy of her advisors.

[brashcandy]

Why does it matter so much whether Daenerys knows about her namesake or not, if she has the right instincts and ideas to move Westeros in a new, better direction? Right now we have a Lannister child (and pawn) on the throne, who signs things because he likes to play to ink. There's another contender, Stannis, who completely feels that he's entitled to the throne (but Daenerys is the one who gets accused of this) and he's shown so far that he'll create even more chaos because he is completely bull headed and inflexible. He's also a pawn of the Red God, and whatever other madness with Melisandre. Then we have Aegon, another pawn of Varys and Illyrio, who has been given all the necessary teaching and training, but shows worrying signs of being impetuous and reckless.

We are left with Daenerys, - arguably the most legitimate and independent thinker in the whole mix. She hasn't had the benefit of sitting down for formal schooling, so she's learnt in the school of hard knocks. Some readers obviously take Barristan's selection of her as the one to serve lightly, but the other characters in the text don't. She knows after ADWD what she can and cannot stand for, and she isn't prepared to be the pawn of anyone. The idea that she cannot negotiate with Dorne because she doesn't know the history of how Dorne came into the seven kingdoms is farcical. Quentyn Martell was told the cold hard facts by Barristan, he simply came too late. And if there was anyone counting on fairytales it was Doran Martell - sending his (uncharismatic) son on a fool's journey to find Dany and marry her so that his family would be avenged was always a nonsensical plan. (This is why Victarion's plan is madness too, but at least he has insurance)

I like to compare Dany to Jon. The latter (if R+L=J is true) has no idea that he's really a Targ prince. And yet, he has innately princely qualities that cause people to want to follow him, and he has great ideas of how to bring the realm together to face the coming crisis. Likewise, Dany may have grown up knowing that she's a princess, but she's also to face poverty, hunger and homelessness before being sold into a marriage. When she could have headed back to Pentos, she decided instead to seek out her own army instead of falling under the control of people like Illyrio again. She hears of the how the Unsullied are made and she initiates a revolt, leading to her commitment to freeing slaves and earning herself the admiration and devotion of the masses.

She got stalled in Meereen, yes. She wasn't prepared to face the kind of resentment and resistance from people like the Harpies, Qarth and the Yunka'i. She chains up her dragons out of fear of the damage that they will cause and she marries Hizdahr out of desperation. Were there other actions that she might have taken? Arguably. But these other actions would have taken her back to Westeros, and she wanted to ensure that when she left Meereen it would be a fully functioning, peaceful, slave free society. So her actions were understandable in light of these objectives. However, by the end of ADWD she's learnt that one cannot capitulate to evil. And we cannot "chain" the fierce aspects of ourselves in order to rule efficiently. She has to embrace who she is, all of it, in order to be an effective leader.

Is there an argument to be made that Dany doesn't like the limitations of Queenship? - perhaps. Just like Jon may not appreciate having to be in the role of LC and meeting with Stannis, and facing resentment from his men. However, the alternatives aren't too peachy either. Perhaps Dany will redefine what it means to be Queen after her experiences in Meereen to suit her goals better. The fact remains however that she is (besides Jon) the best person suited to sit the Iron Throne. Maybe she wasn't the best person to do so in AGOT but after ADWD she's grown immensely and truly knows that one cannot sit easily in any position of power.

[CrypticWeirwood]

As it stands, as Kevan noticed, Dany is the only Targ without questioned credentials and has dragons to boot. She also has shown little regard for rules that she deems unfair or unjust (like slavery and hence male succession)

I don't understand why you say that male succession presupposes, or is based on, slavery. There are plenty of instances of cognatic primogeniture that are not an outgrowth of slavery. Are you saying that on Westeros, it is?

Plus the whole male succession thing is a bit dodgier in Westeros than in Europe under Salic Law. It seems closer to the English system, which was never subject to Salic Law and which today is even based on equal primogeniture.

[CrypticWeirwood]

There's another contender, Stannis, who completely feels that he's entitled to the throne

Not exactly. Stannis believes that the throne is his job by right of lawful inheritance. It is not as though he is power-hungry. He sees it as his duty to his fallen brother, who left no legitimate heirs. This is hardly the entitlement thing we see in little Dany.

Stannis shows that he is willing to compromise on a lot — there are many examples of this — but not on doing the job that he feels he has been stuck with. Stannis does not try to save the kingdom by winning the throne: he tries to win the throne by saving the kingdom. He does what he does out of a sense of honor and duty, not out of feckless entitlement grandiosity.He makes mistakes; he compromises; and he learns. There is real growth here. Stannis is a hero doing his solemn duty.

Dany also displays authentic qualities of being a heroïne, but her perverted sense of entitlement has been nurtured by Viserys, the Mad Beggar who though he was a king and a dragon, but in the end was neither. It will take all of Dany’s strength to overcome this terrible handicap. She too makes mistakes, but it is not clear that she learns from them.

[brashcandy]

By growing up in Essos, Dany and Aegon are both at a disadvantage when it comes to Westerosi culture and politics, but Aegon's carers have tried to mitigate that by systematic education and doing their best to replicate a Westerosi heir's lifestyle on the lam (septa, maester, master-at-arms, governance etc). Dany hasn't had that luxury, and I think if she ever makes it to the Iron Throne, she is going to have a very steep learning curve ahead of her. To a large extent, she will be at the mercy of her advisors.</p>

Robert was at the mercy of his advisors, Ete. He had LF and Varys and they were both playing him for a fool. So too was Joffrey and now Tommen, and definitely Stannis, who relies on Melisandre to look into a crystal ball to determine his path forward. What we do know about Dany however is that she may rely on advice, but she also thinks independently of it. She also has honorable people working for her.

[CrypticWeirwood]

What we do know about Dany however is that she may rely on advice, but she also thinks independently of it. She also has honorable people working for her.

Does she, now? I know of just one alone: Ser Barristan, of course. Ok, maybe Missandei, too, but who else? Daario Naharis? Skahaz mo Kandaq (the Shavepate)? Reznak mo Reznak? Her king, Hizdahr zo Loraq? Drogon, her eldest child?

I don’t know that those qualify as honorable people working for her.

[brashcandy]

Not exactly.  Stannis believes that the throne is his job by right of lawful inheritance.  It is not as though he is power-hungry. He sees it as his duty to his fallen brother, who left no legitimate heirs. This is hardly the entitlement thing we see in little Dany.

Stannis shows that he is willing to compromise on a lot — there are many examples of this — but not on doing the job that he feels he has been stuck with.  Stannis does not try to save the kingdom by winning the throne: he tries to win the throne by saving the kingdom.  He does what he does out of a sense of honor and duty, not out of feckless entitlement grandiosity.He makes mistakes; he compromises; and he learns.  There is real growth here.  Stannis is a hero doing his solemn duty.  

Dany also displays authentic qualities of being a heroïne, but her perverted sense of entitlement has been nurtured by Viserys, the Mad Beggar who though he was a king and a dragon, but in the end was neither. It will take all of Dany’s strength to overcome this terrible handicap. She too makes mistakes, but it is not clear that she learns from them.

Cryptic, please don't tell me you've bought into the Great Stannis Charade. Oh my goodness, the man feels he is entitled to the throne and wants it just as much as anyone else. He just cannot bring himself to admit it. As for your assertion that Stannis feels he has a right by "lawful inheritance" please tell me how this is any different from Daenerys. Isn't she a lawful inheritor to the Throne? This whole idea that Stannis is somehow long-suffering and just trying to do the right thing by Westeros is hogwash. He's a stubborn mule that doesn't mind stooping to nasty, underhanded tricks to win a crown. It pleases him to have a red priestess on hand to serve his cause, and the only repulsive thing he won't consider is sleeping with his own wife. Now I'm not trying to crucify the man. He does have some dignity and he does listen at times to what Davos is telling him. But he's no hero. If he was so interested in bringing peace to the realm he would have joined with his brother Renly (who was the people's choice), swallowed his pride and concentrated on beating the Lannisters. Instead he retreats like a petulant kid, after creating a shadow baby monster to defeat his brother, and thinks of who next he can sacrifice with Kingly blood. When he could have told his brother about Cersei's incest, he instead gets mad (over the handship issue) and heads back to Dragonstone, only revealing the incest when he wants to legitimitise his own claim. His rescue at the Wall was very much to further his own objectives and he tries to twist Jon's hand in everything to get what he wants. Dany has no perverted sense of entitlement at all. She recognizes she's the rightful heir, but she's also focused on fixing the injustices that she comes across, before rushing across the sea to sit a throne. Stopping slavery in Essos helps her not one bit in Westeros because Westeros doesn't even have slaves, but it's a principled thing with her. Stannis does nothing unless he can see how it benefits it.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Can we get back on topic? The Aegon/Young Griff = legit? stuff has been rehashed plenty of times. I'm definitely not convinced he's real - but real or not I still think he's doomed to die. I think it would be most interesting if we never find out the truth. I think we'll only ever know if Varys/Illyrio reveal it.

Perhaps Illyrio will - his sadness about Aegon in Tyrion II is still (to me) the most convincing evidence that Aegon isn't who he says he is (rather I'm almost certain he's Illyrio's son by the last Blackfire "princess").

So what does everyone think Aegon's battleplan will be in the short term? I suppose the first step will be to Ally with Dorne. Many have discussed the possibility of a Vale/Littlefinger alliance but I think JonCon won't allow someone like Littlefinger near his precious Aegon. I'm also not sure that Dorne will immediately ally - they won't have heard about Quentyn before they meet Aegon, and might prefer a Daenerys+Quentyn match to Aegon+Arianne. There's still the matter of holding Storm's End and Griffon's Roost as well, which no doubt the Tyrell-Lannister forces will quickly attack.

Then what will he atatck next? You have ironborn attacking the Reach, which Aegon would be wise to let continue. Then you have Stannis in the north. It might be worth attacking KL as fast as possible to try to achieve a quick victory (whilst the Tyrell-Lannister forces are still occupied elsewhere). However I think Tyrell-Lannister is still way more powerful than JC/Aegon's army, even with Dorne added. Thoughts?

Alas, the rabid Dany-lovers seem to have had their way with it; don’t they have their own thread somewhere? }-;

This is ridiculous. We were happily discussing Aegon until the haters began ranting - apropos of nothing - what a whore and terrible queen Daenerys is.

E.g. see this post on p 3, which was entirely about Daenerys, and responding to absolutely nothing regarding the Aegon discussion (which was still quite lively at the time):

I still laugh at people who say that Dany deserves to be queen and she is a good ruler . Did anyone even read ADWD and not see that she is a TERRIBLE ruler and she does not care about politics and only her horny teenage crushes ?

If you all would like to make a Dany hate thread to spout such nonsense, feel free. It's been done before, and I promise to stay out of it. But you can't expect to say such things off topic in other threads and not be called on it.

[Été]

Robert was at the mercy of his advisors, Ete. He had LF and Varys and they were both playing him for a fool. So too was Joffrey and now Tommen, and definitely Stannis, who relies on Melisandre to look into a crystal ball to determine his path forward. What we do know about Dany however is that she may rely on advice, but she also thinks independently of it. She also has honorable people working for her.

Barristan, and maybe Jorah too. The rest of her advisors are as ignorant about Westeros as she is. In any case, honour and pragmatism are not the same thing. It was honourable of Ned Stark to send men to apprehend Gregor Clegane for his crimes, but politically it was not smart: if there were any bridges left between the Starks and the Lannisters, that action burnt them.

I don't understand your comparison. Robert and Joffrey are not examples of successful kings. Robert was so reliant on his Small Council that he didn't bother turning up for meetings. The realm was bankrupted, corruption became rife, and the factions at court brought the Seven Kingdoms to civil war. Joffrey had advisors, but his real trouble started when he tried to put his own stamp on his reign, and we all know what a just and merciful ruler he turned out to be.

But under the tractable Tommen, with Kevan's hand on the tiller, things finally seemed to be looking up. LF and Varys are gone, Cersei's influence is crippled and the Small Council are doing their best to pick up the pieces. Tommen is himself a weak ruler, but he's Robert's ostensible heir - it's not his fault he's nine.

Stannis is increasingly reliant on Melisandre for counsel, but he is confident enough in his own abilities to leave her behind when he marches with his army. He and Dany both believe the Iron Throne is their duty and bluster tiresomely about their right to it (Robert's true heir vs blood of the dragon), but at least Stannis is doing something about it. He's trying to build alliances so he can challenge the Lannisters and Tyrells again, whereas Dany sits on the other side of the world deciding that "Westeros can wait". Aegon seems a bit more placid about the prospect.

[Gogossos]

I don't understand why you say that male succession presupposes, or is based on, slavery.

My 'hence' perhaps could've been outside the brackets but I was trying to link her desire to change rules (like slavery) to her likely desire to change the succession issue. She has dragons here and I don't see how she couldn't want to rule unless it's a personal matter (like continuing her slavery struggle or desire to live in the dothraki sea) but that would be at the end of the series.

Dany made Hizdahr a King which gave him control over Mereen. It's precisely why Daario asked her what kind of Queen she wanted to be.

Hizdahr's crown derived from Dany and Dany wasn't deposed in Meereen (despite what you'll read in this thread). That's why Barristan locks up Hizdahr under Dany's authority and none in the Council object (in the open at least). That's also why Barristan wonders how such a young girl can hold such a disparate group together. It's this same group that will fight the Yunkai'i under Dany's name.

Not exactly. Stannis believes that the throne is his job by right of lawful inheritance. It is not as though he is power-hungry. He sees it as his duty to his fallen brother, who left no legitimate heirs. This is hardly the entitlement thing we see in little Dany.

This is laughable. Stannis isn't entitled but Dany is? One is a brother of Robert (who had 3 children, legitimate for now) and a younger brother who commanded more swords from their homeland (he murdered that one by the way). The other is the daughter of the deposed king whose sister-in-law, nephew and niece were murdered in cold blood by the new regime. Entitlement is something that comes with all the highborn - it's hardly a trait I'd use to criticise a character. Even Aegon feels entitled to marry Dany.

[brashcandy]

Barristan, and maybe Jorah too. The rest of her advisors are as ignorant about Westeros as she is. In any case, honour and pragmatism are not the same thing. It was honourable of Ned Stark to send men to apprehend Gregor Clegane for his crimes, but politically it was not smart: if there were any bridges left between the Starks and the Lannisters, that action burnt them.

She has other advisors because she's currently in Essos, not Westeros. It only stands to reason that when she arrives in Westeros she'll ally herself with decent people there. As for Ned and the Gregor issue, those ties with the Lannisters needed to be broken, and it was Jaime's act of pushing Bran through the window that effectively strained them. I think people are really too invested in the idea that every act has to be the product of some calculated scheming and seeing how it benefits this house and your house etc. Some things are just the right things to do.

I don't understand your comparison. Robert and Joffrey are not examples of successful kings. Robert was so reliant on his Small Council that he didn't bother turning up for meetings. The realm was bankrupted, corruption became rife, and the factions at court brought the Seven Kingdoms to civil war. Joffrey had advisors, but his real trouble started when he tried to put his own stamp on his reign, and we all know what a just and merciful ruler he turned out to be.

My point was exactly that these men were unsuccessful. Relying on a small council to rule is wrong. Dany has never done this and so she should be successful or fail without compromising her values and ethics.

But under the tractable Tommen, with Kevan's hand on the tiller, things finally seemed to be looking up. LF and Varys are gone, Cersei's influence is crippled and the Small Council are doing their best to pick up the pieces. Tommen is himself a weak ruler, but he's Robert's ostensible heir - it's not his fault he's nine

Things were not returning to normal at all. The Tyrell were extremely pissed over Margaery, Stannis was still plotting to overthrow them, they were over their heads in debt, LF and Varys were "gone" but making plans to destroy them all, along with Doran Martell, and the sandsnakes moving into place. There is a monster on the KG, Jaime is lost, and Cersei still has a trial by combat to win. And we have two legitimate heirs - Dany and Jon - fighting their own battles. And I wasn't keen to see the Lannisters picking up the pieces to continue their bastard reign either. The Lannisters were walking a tight rope and it was going to pop at any minute. And Tommen may be 9 but this doesn't excuse him. Bran too is only 9 and he's lightyears ahead of Tommen in terms of being mature and thinking critically, whilst being paralysed mind you.

Stannis is increasingly reliant on Melisandre for counsel, but he is confident enough in his own abilities to leave her behind when he marches with his army. He and Dany both believe the Iron Throne is their duty and bluster tiresomely about their right to it (Robert's true heir vs blood of the dragon), but at least Stannis is doing something about it. He's trying to build alliances so he can challenge the Lannisters and Tyrells again, whereas Dany sits on the other side of the world deciding that "Westeros can wait". Aegon seems a bit more placid about the prospect.

Stannis isn't confident about leaving Mel behind at all. He just doesn't want to appear weak in front of the men, plus he wants to get credit for winning his battles, and most of the men do not like the Red priestess.Dany has other issues to champion over in Essos. She cannot be criticised for staying to make sure Meereen is peaceful instead of flying back to Westeros to secure her claim.

[Tyrionthebest]

If you all would like to make a Dany hate thread to spout such nonsense, feel free. It's been done before, and I promise to stay out of it. But you can't expect to say such things off topic in other threads and not be called on it.

Nah, i rather not bother anymore .