Unpopular Opinions V

[Woman of War]

To Tini: great, this had to be said!

I believe that Hoster Tully arranged Lysas marriage to Jon Arryn not only to get rid of his "soiled" daughter. No, her father explicitly wanted to "teach her a lesson", Catelyn had always been his favorite daughter, he did not care very much for Lysa , only for his precious reputation.

Old lusty men were of course not seen as despiceable in Westeros because men in that society thought access to sex as their given right, may it be paid or taken for free.

So if Jon Arryn had had any decent sense he would have stepped back in his wedding night, seeing that his bride was totally unwilling.......but he did not.

I think of course that sex in old age is something wonderful, if both partners enjoy it and there is no creepy age gap - I would not want my lover to be more than fifteen years younger than I am.

Of course the marriage to a dwarf was meant to be humiliating for reasons of irrational superstitions, this has been discussed several times in these forums. This may have been an extra bonus reward for Tywin but he did not at all care about Sansa's personal humiliation, such irrational considerations were alien to him.

[Bourne]

He made it very clear that he wanted Tyrion to marry her and he would not have happily married her to Lancel. His conversation with Tyrion completely shreds the idea that he didn't care which Lannister she married. He cared... and his response to Tyrion when Tyrion says that it is cruel even for Tywin is quite chilling.

I think the problem here is that Tyrion fans don't want to see that it might be considered sexual humiliation to be married to him but just look how Tywin talks about him. He calls him a vile ill-made creature full of low lusts (paraphrase), tells him that even whores don't want to be in his bed, and gleefully describes how every high-born bride he ever offered him to (with the offer to Elia, at least, clearly intended to insult her mother) turned him down. He goes on to say that he's sure he can eventually find some minor lord willing to sell his daughter for some gold. Tywin thinks that Tyrion is absolutely disgusting.

You're right, he does care which Lannister she marries. He would much prefer it to be Tyrion. I phrased my point incorrectly.

But that's still not really the point. He doesn't want Tyrion to marry Sansa because it would be humiliating for her, he want's Tyrion to marry Sansa so that the Lannisters (specifically his own son) will gain a claim to Winterfell. He would have married her to Lancel if Tyrion had refused, but he would prefer to keep the power in his own immediate family.

His motives for marrying Sansa have nothing to do with sexually humiliating or shaming her. They are purely for Lannister political gain.

And I'm not sure if you're talking about me in the second paragraph, but if so I can totally see why marrying Tyrion would be sexually humiliating. I don't deny that. Tywin doesn't deny that. But he didn't choose Tyrion to be the groom because he was an ill-made creature, he chose him because tyrion was his son and he wanted Winterfell to be in the Lannister family.

Also, I'm not really much of a Tyrion fan. Nor was I even arguing about Tyrion. I was talking about Tywin. But I digress, and yes we agree it is sexually humiliating for Sansa to marry Tywin.

Remember, at this point, Lancel was horribly injured and barely functioning. Not exactly a prize either.

I think he gave Tyrion first priority because he grudgingly acknowledged that Tyrion was competent mentally. That's as far as he will "reward" Tyrion. Give him a barely pubescent girl from a traitorous House.

He doesn't care what Sansa thinks about her prospective husband. She could hate him or love, Tywin doesn't give a damn either way. He just wants her married into his family for her claim.

On a side note, why doesn't this website have the character names entered into it's spellcheck?

Edit: Yes, Tywin knows it's sexually humiliating for Sansa and yes, he does not care. But his goal wasn't to sexually humiliate her. He's aware it will happen and doesn't care, but that doesn't mean it was his purpose.

[Alexia]

I consider an arranged marriage of a young girl to a man 70 years old sexually humiliating as well. Yet nobody comments on that.

Meh, you haven't been on the boards long enough. That's been discussed -- including the possibility of whether or not Hoster saw an older husband as a punishment for Lysa's loss of virginity -- on multiple occasions. In fact, I dare say I've seen more threads about the humiliation of marrying a young girl to a much older man than I have discussing Tywin's motivations in marrying Tyrion to Sansa. Personally, I chalk the recent furor on the board about the marriage up to Tyrion's extraordinarily misogynistic treatment of women in ADWD.

[headtrip_honey]

He doesn't care what Sansa thinks about her prospective husband. She could hate him or love, Tywin doesn't give a damn either way. He just wants her married into his family for her claim.

On a side note, why doesn't this website have the character names entered into it's spellcheck?

I agree, but I think the fact that her Lannister husband choices were, uh, less than ideal for a girl of her station/age/beauty, was probably icing on the cake for Tywin. His prime motive wasn't to humiliate her, but if he did, so much the better.

And I think spellcheck comes from your browser, not the website, or am I mistaken?

[Bourne]

And I think spellcheck comes from your browser, not the website, or am I mistaken?

That would make sense. My mistake.

[Woman of War]

I wonder.....and I know there was a thread somewhere about Tywin staying unmarried.....but

WHY didn't Tywin marry Sansa herself?? No complications and unnecessary debates, he would have fucked her without a second thought, got her pregnant, claimed Winterfell and killed her off - so easy, man....

No stupid objections by that idiot dwarf son who makes a fool of himself at every opportunity.

There will be a plot reason by GRRM behind it why Tywin did not consider this, it would have been so logical

I don't understand....

[headtrip_honey]

Well, it's been pretty well established that Tywin never really looked at women after his wife died (which is why finding Shae in his bed was so...weird. For the longest time I thought Varys or someone must have planted her there.). I also just don't see him as wanting a teenage wife hanging around. It'd probably annoy him to no end.

[Woman of War]

No of course he would not have wanted her around. He certainly would not have fancied her, not more than his right hand, but he would have done what had to be done. He would have kept her somewhere, fucked her until she was pregnant, and after the birth....bam!

[Alexia]

There are a few reasons. First, marriages with huge age gaps are not looked on particularly favorably in Westeros. Sansa is simply too young for Tywin. He look rather monstrous if he did this (married her, raped her, and murdered her), and his own children and the other Lannisters would be furious.

Next, Tywin doesn't want to remarry. He genuinely loved his wife. He has three children, one of whom is a dwarf, and is likely frightened of the possibility of having another dwarf. He has no need for additional heirs if Jaime comes out of the KG, and at worst Tommen can inherit the lordship of Lannister.

A marriage to Sansa would put Stark children in the line of succession for Casterly Rock. He doesn't want that either; the point is to get rid of Tyrion not hand Casterly Rock over to the Starks.

Marrying her to Tyrion is perfect in every sense of the word. It teaches Sansa a sharp lesson, sends a message to the Tyrells, Starks, and realm at large. It gets Tyrion focused on the North instead of Casterly Rock, where at worst Manderly turns him into a pie (and Tywin sends him roses) and at best (even if a long shot) Tyrion succeeds. It was ingenious in the political possibilities and Tywin's trademark cruelty -- from Tywin's perspective, even if he loses, he wins.

Tywin had no way to know that Tyrion would refuse to consummate. He thinks Tyrion is a vile whoremongerer, who was recently forbidden whores.

[headtrip_honey]

...is likely frightened of the possibility of having another dwarf...

A marriage to Sansa would put Stark children in the line of succession for Casterly Rock. He doesn't want that either; the point is to get rid of Tyrion not hand Casterly Rock over to the Starks.

All good points that I hadn't thought of.

[eyeheartsansa]

Well, it's been pretty well established that Tywin never really looked at women after his wife died (which is why finding Shae in his bed was so...weird. For the longest time I thought Varys or someone must have planted her there.). I also just don't see him as wanting a teenage wife hanging around. It'd probably annoy him to no end.

I don't believe this for a second. I think this is just his public image, and what Cercei believed. Taking Shae for himself was a perfectly believable thing for someone like Tywin to do.

[headtrip_honey]

I don't believe this for a second. I think this is just his public image, and what Cercei believed. Taking Shae for himself was a perfectly believable thing for someone like Tywin to do.

Never said you had to believe it.

Other characters testified to how much he loved his wife, and we've heard how he shamed his father's mistress. That, plus his attitude towards Tyrion's whoring is a pretty convincing argument for being anti-purchased pleasure.

Which is why it surprised me, and many others. Not saying that Varys DID put her there, but that was my initial instinct, and I honestly wouldn't be TOO surprised if it turned out to be the case. But I'm also pretty resigned to the fact that that isn't the case.

[Alexia]

Back to unpopular opinions: Am I the only one who finds Tywin's relationship with his wife to be rather inconsistent with his attitudes towards women?

Near as I can tell, Tywin views women as sexual objects and not really as people. If they piss him off, cue BRUTAL SEXUAL PUNISHMENT! He obviously loved Cersei when she was a little girl (that secret smile just for her) but he also used her rather like currency -- and later when he's making a marriage for her, he chooses Oberyn Martell (and Jaime's temper tantrum over that was very well founded) despite knowing what an awful husband he'd make, solely to piss off the Tyrells.

He makes no objections whatsoever to Tyrion's Dornish marriage to Myrcella despite the very clear dangers that it poses to Myrcella and the fact that it had a good chance of making her spend her lifetime as an abused wife. He seems quite pleased about that marriage, in fact.

Then there's the matter of Tysha, his father's poor mistress, Sansa, and Elia (I do subscribe to the belief that he intended for Gregor to assault Elia and is employing plausible deniability).

Yet his wife ruled him in all things. Huh?!

I don't believe this for a second. I think this is just his public image, and what Cercei believed. Taking Shae for himself was a perfectly believable thing for someone like Tywin to do.

I don't believe it either. He made it clear that his anger at Tyrion's whoring was more about the lack of discretion and elevating the women above their proper place than it was about the whoring. Cersei seemed like a daughter romanticizing her father. Shae took me aback, because of how disgusted he seems to be by his hated son, but I don't find it at all unbelievable.

[Alexia]

That, plus his attitude towards Tyrion's whoring is a pretty convincing argument for being anti-purchased pleasure.

He didn't want Tyrion to take a whore as a standing concubine, just to quietly and discreetly visit brothels. That's all his attitude was about... until Tyrion threatened Tommen over Alayaya.

[headtrip_honey]

He didn't want Tyrion to take a whore as a standing concubine, just to quietly and discreetly visit brothels. That's all his attitude was about... until Tyrion threatened Tommen over Alayaya.

Perhaps, but I never got that. I found his attitude towards ANY of Tyrion's whoring to be pretty disgusted. But I think a large part of that is due to his hate for Tyrion. Had it been Jaime, I doubt he would have cared.

My point was more that this anti-whore attitude of his was built into the narrative, whether or not it was his real opinion. So Shae's presence was a shock.

Discretion may have be part of it, but does it anywhere explicitly say that? (honestly curious, I can't remember)

[Woman of War]

Alexia:

"There are a few reasons. First, marriages with huge age gaps are not looked on particularly favorably in Westeros. Sansa is simply too young for Tywin. He look rather monstrous if he did this (married her, raped her, and murdered her), and his own children and the other Lannisters would be furious.

Next, Tywin doesn't want to remarry. He genuinely loved his wife. He has three children, one of whom is a dwarf, and is likely frightened of the possibility of having another dwarf. He has no need for additional heirs if Jaime comes out of the KG, and at worst Tommen can inherit the lordship of Lannister."

The man who organized all those kiilings should have any scruples about the age gap and being involved in another murder??? Infuriating his children - he did that every day! The possibility for another dwarf was much higher if Tyrion did the dirty job.

I don't buy these arguments although I myself have no reasonable explanation for his irrational behavior.

[Bourne]

Back to unpopular opinions: Am I the only one who finds Tywin's relationship with his wife to be rather inconsistent with his attitudes towards women?

To be fair, Tywin doesn't really view anyone as a person in the sense we would use. He has his family and then everyone else. I think He pretty universally treats all people outside of his family, regardless of gender, pretty badly if the displease him or get in his way.

Actually, out of the 5 people we see or hear about Tywin showing affection to (Joanna, Cersei, Jaime, Kevan and Genna), 3 of them are woman. So I don't think it's a gender thing.

Yes, he tries to marry Cersei off for political reasons, but he does that with Tyrion and Jaime too. And he give Cersei a choice in her spouse just like he does to Tyrion.

I'd agree that he doesn't really see women as human, but he doesn't see men as human either. Everyone is just a pawn of his chessboard.

[Alexia]

Perhaps, but I never got that. I found his attitude towards ANY of Tyrion's whoring to be pretty disgusted....

My point was more that this anti-whore attitude of his was built into the narrative, whether or not it was his real opinion.

I think its a misinterpretation of his attitude. He says not to take the whore to court. That is far from an unreasonable request -- and if he hadn't made it, there's a fair chance Tyrion would have installed Shae in the Tower of the Hand. He doesn't ban whores until the threats on Tommen. He doesn't want whores/mistresses getting out of their places and embarrassing the family the way his father's mistress does. That's why he reacts the way he did to Tysha.

But there's no question that he doesn't have a problem with the institution of whoring itself, and he probably built the secret tunnel to Chataya's. He just thinks that Tyrion is a moron who doesn't know how to handle whores (and given the Tommen/Alayaya situation and inappropriate feelings for Shae, I can't say I disagree).

C'mon, does anyone really think he spent his life since Joanna's death perfectly chaste? I thought that was very naive on Cersei's part, personally.

[Sevumar]

Back to unpopular opinions: Am I the only one who finds Tywin's relationship with his wife to be rather inconsistent with his attitudes towards women?

This is something that I hadn't thought about until you mentioned it. Is it possible that his views and personality changed after the death of his wife?

He makes no objections whatsoever to Tyrion's Dornish marriage to Myrcella despite the very clear dangers that it poses to Myrcella and the fact that it had a good chance of making her spend her lifetime as an abused wife. He seems quite pleased about that marriage, in fact.

Now this strikes me as an unpopular opinion. What makes you think Myrcella would be abused? Women in Dorne seem to have the best standing and most freedom compared to their peers elsewhere in the kingdom.

[Alexia]

Now this strikes me as an unpopular opinion. What makes you think Myrcella would be abused? Women in Dorne seem to have the best standing and most freedom compared to their peers elsewhere in the kingdom.

Oh, that's easy. Elia. Doran even wound up concerned about her safety in Sunspear.

We've met the Martells and now know that they aren't (most of them, anyone) the kind of people to abuse a little girl for what relatives did long before she was born. But Tyrion, Cersei, and Tywin didn't know that. That's what Tyrion wanted the marriage kept secret from Cersei as long as he could, and why Cersei freaked out why she heard about it. Its also why Cersei takes measures in AFFC/ADWD to try to get Myrcella back.