Unpopular Opinions V

[Alexia]

The law was an old one that Cersei resurrected to railroad Margaery, in agreement with the Faith. It wasn't anything in current use at the time of Tyrion's trial.

[Canadian Goose]

Oh I see. Didn't catch that the first time, thanks for the help :)

[Winterfell is Burning]

This is yet another reason why I think Tywin is quite like Cersei. Tywin was very good at plotting and is a great military strategist but when he actually became the King's Hand again and effectively Regent, he began to make stupid judgment calls and errors (not on Cersei levels, but he was still setting his House up for a difficult future).

Tywin's problems come from:

1) Arrogance, which became considerably worse when he won at Blackwater. He was seeing himself as a god probably.

2) A lack of general understanding of people's feelings. Something like what the Northmen did in ADWD, uniting and risking their life to save a little girl just because who his dead father was, would make him completely shocked and confused. He would never understand why someone would risk his life just to do the right thing.

Likewise, he didn't understand why Dorne would still try revenge after all this time, simply because forget it would be better politically wise, and also because of point 1- how could they be silly enough to try something against the Lannister demigod?

The law was an old one that Cersei resurrected to railroad Margaery, in agreement with the Faith. It wasn't anything in current use at the time of Tyrion's trial.

That and the fact that Tyrion wasn't being judged by the King or the Queen, but by the Small Council, that doesn't have such restrictions.

[Winterfell is Burning]

This is yet another reason why I think Tywin is quite like Cersei. Tywin was very good at plotting and is a great military strategist but when he actually became the King's Hand again and effectively Regent, he began to make stupid judgment calls and errors (not on Cersei levels, but he was still setting his House up for a difficult future).

Tywin's problems come from:

1) Arrogance, which became considerably worse when he won at Blackwater. He was seeing himself as a god probably.

2) A lack of general understanding of people's feelings. Something like what the Northmen did in ADWD, uniting and risking their life to save a little girl just because who his dead father was, would make him completely shocked and confused. He would never understand why someone would risk his life just to do the right thing.

Likewise, he didn't understand why Dorne would still try revenge after all this time, simply because forget it would be better politically wise, and also because of point 1- how could they be silly enough to try something against the Lannister demigod?

The law was an old one that Cersei resurrected to railroad Margaery, in agreement with the Faith. It wasn't anything in current use at the time of Tyrion's trial.

That and the fact that Tyrion wasn't being judged by the King or the Queen, but by the Small Council, that doesn't have such restrictions.

[1234567]

Tywin's problems come from:

1) Arrogance, which became considerably worse when he won at Blackwater. He was seeing himself as a god probably.

2) A lack of general understanding of people's feelings. Something like what the Northmen did in ADWD, uniting and risking their life to save a little girl just because who his dead father was, would make him completely shocked and confused. He would never understand why someone would risk his life just to do the right thing.

Likewise, he didn't understand why Dorne would still try revenge after all this time, simply because forget it would be better politically wise, and also because of point 1- how could they be silly enough to try something against the Lannister demigod?

Point 1 is excellent. The last time Tywin rode into KL after sacking it, Ned had got there already, Robert was there soon after and the whole situation was tenuous as Ned wanted Jaime to take the black for Oath breaking and was repulsed by the murders of Elia and her children. He gained influence through having Cersei marry Robert, but no out and out power. After the Battle of Blackwater, he was effectively King.

Point 2: This is where he and Cersei are really similar. They just don't get people. The Tyrells played the Lannisters completely and Tywin never really saw it coming. The only time was the Sansa and Willas match which resulted in Tywin pissing off his major ally the Tyrells, technically giving his son a death sentence if he went North (ADWD has proved quite how vicious the North can be, and that is towards a Bolton, who is a Northman, nevermind a Lannister), was surprised the Tyrells' didn't want Cersei and then thought of marrying her to Oberyn despite the fact he had ordered the killing of his sister and her children and that the marriage would further piss off the Tyrells. Littlefinger out played Tywin with the Harrenhal thing, which Tyrion was suspicious of and equally Tyrion tried to advice against Tywin putting Slynt in power at the Wall and Tywin took not a blind bit of notice.

[mediocre cheese]

Putting slynt as commander on the wall wasn't a bad idea, it just didn't materialize. I guess had he supported cotter pyke or someone like that it would have worked out as well, but from the lannister perspective slynt was the best candidate.

Realistically, absent Jon being made commander Stannis would have been finished (as Stannis would have tried to take the dreadfort, and arnolf karstark would have destroyed his forces while stannis was besieging the dreadfort). There was no way to know jon would ever been made commander though.

[1234567]

Putting slynt as commander on the wall wasn't a bad idea, it just didn't materialize. I guess had he supported cotter pyke or someone like that it would have worked out as well, but from the lannister perspective slynt was the best candidate.

Tyrion didn't think he would be a good person in charge because he could be easily bought and was a highly untrust worthy individual. Tywin didn't take this on board and just said he could pay the highest price. Tywin never listened to Tyrion, who had some bloody good advice.

[Shaggydog Stark]

This is yet another reason why I think Tywin is quite like Cersei. Tywin was very good at plotting and is a great military strategist but when he actually became the King's Hand again and effectively Regent, he began to make stupid judgment calls and errors (not on Cersei levels, but he was still setting his House up for a difficult future).

I half agree with this and half disagree. I agree that father and daughter are clueless about how humans react, and all your points on the matter, etc. However, we don't really know if there would have been repercussions to Tywin's decisions had he lived. The difference between Cersei and Tywin is that Tywin inspired fear whereas Cersei, quite frankly is a joke.

I don't think the Sansa/Tyrion marriage was bad from a Lannister point of view because I don't think the Tyrells would have done anything about it. Tywin took Sansa from them and in return offered Garth the Gross, was it? A seat on the Council. So he takes with one hand and gives with another and smoothes and ruffled feathers.

I don't think he would have sent Tyrion and Sansa north until he was quite sure he had secured it. He is a much more cautious player. He is ruthless when he needs to be and generous at other times. He is also a military man and understands war unlike Cersei. But the main difference between him and Cersei is, Tywin surrounds himself with people he trusts and can depend on. And we see from the scene at the crossroads inn that he listens to council.

OTH, Cersei thinks she knows it all, gets irritated if someone points things out to her. She thinks they do this because she is a woman and that pisses her off, which makes her more stubborn. She doesn't seem to understand that in order to rule she needs to surround herself with qualified people whom she can trust. Instead, she surrounds herself with inept people because she wants to ensure that she rules alone and that nobody objects to any of her decisions. She alienates the Tyrells and then goes head to head with them, which is something Tywin would never have done imho. She dismisses Garth the Gross in a way that is insulting. Again I don't think Tywin would have done that.

I really don't think Tywin made any mistakes and I think things would have played out very differently had Tyrion not killed him.

[idreamofpikas]

OTH, Cersei Robb thinks he knows it all, gets irritated if someone his mother points things out to him. he thinks they do this because he is a woman child and that pisses him off, which makes him more stubborn. he doesn't seem to understand that in order to rule he needs to surround herself with qualified people whom she can trust. Instead, he surrounds himse;f with inept people westerlings and umbers because he wants to ensure that he rules alone and that nobody objects to any of his decisions. he alienates the Tyrells Freys/Boltons/Karstarks and then goes head to head with them, which is something Tywin Ned(bit iffy on that one :crying: ) would never have done imho. he dismisses Garth the Gross Edmure the Flacid in a way that is insulting. Again I don't think Tywin Ned would have done that.

Robb and Cersei are soulmates, clearly a OTP who never got a chance to blossom. This whole silly war would of been over if only they realized this in the books,

[Tini]

I think Tywin knew a lot about people, especially about their dark sides, and how to exploit them. He inspired fear, and respect. Everyone was just game pieces for him, to be used and discarded. He used hs children as well, but he couldn't discard and replace them as easily.

[Shaggydog Stark]

Robb and Cersei are soulmates, clearly a OTP who never got a chance to blossom. This whole silly war would of been over if only they realized this in the books,

Nice! Yes Cersei and Robb do seem to have a lot in common! Good analogy.

[1234567]

I half agree with this and half disagree. I agree that father and daughter are clueless about how humans react, and all your points on the matter, etc. However, we don't really know if there would have been repercussions to Tywin's decisions had he lived. The difference between Cersei and Tywin is that Tywin inspired fear whereas Cersei, quite frankly is a joke.

I completely agree that Cersei is a joke compared to Tywin (and certainly was trying to imply they were on the same level) but I do think that some of Tywin's decisions were shortsighted and would have eventually led to houses uniting against them.

I don't think the Sansa/Tyrion marriage was bad from a Lannister point of view because I don't think the Tyrells would have done anything about it. Tywin took Sansa from them and in return offered Garth the Gross, was it? A seat on the Council. So he takes with one hand and gives with another and smoothes and ruffled feathers.

He offered them Cersei first and she was refused (too old and too used). I don't think their feathers were smoothed over much as Tywin believed. The Tyrells were still planning to kill Joffery and I don't know how much they had to do with implicating Tyrion and Sansa in the murder (or how much the QoT helped persuade Mace about Tyrion's guilt). Tywin made the Tyrells into smiling enemies.

I don't think he would have sent Tyrion and Sansa north until he was quite sure he had secured it. He is a much more cautious player. He is ruthless when he needs to be and generous at other times.

He was planning to have Sansa killed / kept prisoner and only send Tyrion and the son North. This is where he seriously misjudged the Northen bannermen as can be seen with the Pies and the North Remembers. tyrion would have had a hunting accident within a month. Tywin didn't see this possibility at all.

[Silverin]

I don't think he would have sent Tyrion and Sansa north until he was quite sure he had secured it.

There is a place called Moat Cailin, which no one ever secured from the south. it is said more than once that the North is able to defend it against way bigger armies coming from the South. The North has never been conquered, not even by the Targs. The Starks decided to just simply accept them as king rather than loosing a lot of life. Tywin thinking he can secure the North, while he has to secure the Riverlands (they hate the Lannisters, plus the BwB is active there), his armies already ragged, while he has to watch out for Stannis and the Tyrells was kinda foolish (since again no one ever managed to acomplish that.).

[Winterfell is Burning]

There is a place called Moat Cailin, which no one ever secured from the south. it is said more than once that the North is able to defend it against way bigger armies coming from the South. The North has never been conquered, not even by the Targs. The Starks decided to just simply accept them as king rather than loosing a lot of life. Tywin thinking he can secure the North, while he has to secure the Riverlands (they hate the Lannisters, plus the BwB is active there), his armies already ragged, while he has to watch out for Stannis and the Tyrells was kinda foolish (since again no one ever managed to acomplish that.).

Plus, as we see iin ADWD, he'd had to fight General Winter.

[Rhaegar Stark]

I don't know if its unpopular but I don't hear it much. I think Dany/Jorah hookin up is not that weird, nor do I think that it would be that bad. A lot of people get freaked out by the age difference, but then again, Westeros is not America.

[voodooqueen126]

I don't know if its unpopular but I don't hear it much. I think Dany/Jorah hookin up is not that weird, nor do I think that it would be that bad. A lot of people get freaked out by the age difference, but then again, Westeros is not America.

I don't have a problem with age difference, but Jorah is a creep.

[Rhaegar Stark]

I don't have a problem with age difference, but Jorah is a creep.

Yep I get that a lot. I think he had a moment when he acted out and went too far.

However, it's hard for a guy to make a move on a girl. I thought Jorah was actually kinda brave to go for it with Dany. Why is it that if a guy gets rejected by a girl, he is a creep? If Jorah and Dany hooked up, would you still call him a creep? I really don't think so.

When Jorah finally gave it a shot I was like "finally! Took long enough!" I knew ever since the first book that Jorah had a thing for her.

[Shaggydog Stark]

I completely agree that Cersei is a joke compared to Tywin (and certainly was trying to imply they were on the same level) but I do think that some of Tywin's decisions were shortsighted and would have eventually led to houses uniting against them.

Okay, maybe I didn't phrase it correctly. What I meant was that we will never know if his decisions were shortsighted or not. Perhaps he had back up plans for different eventualities or he was really and truly shortsighted. The point is we will never really know because he was killed. I do not think the others would necessarily have united against them because Tywin doesn't just use war tactics, he uses terror with his "dogs/brave companions" etc. And people who go against him/Lannisters are made examples of (eg. the Reynes of Castamere).

Secondly, he is binding most families to the Lannisters through marriage. You have Lannisters, marrying into Stark, into Tyrell, into Freys, etc. He is doing this to ensure the future of the Lannister dynasty. To me this seems as though he is looking into the future.

He offered them Cersei first and she was refused (too old and too used). I don't think their feathers were smoothed over much as Tywin believed. The Tyrells were still planning to kill Joffery and I don't know how much they had to do with implicating Tyrion and Sansa in the murder (or how much the QoT helped persuade Mace about Tyrion's guilt). Tywin made the Tyrells into smiling enemies.

Yes he offered them Cersei and they refused so he promptly thought to offer her to the Martells without it ever coming out that the offer was ever made to the Tyrells. We know Oberyn would have refused the offer, in which case he might have offered Cersei to another house. I just think nothing sets Tywin back, he tries to make the most advantageous offers. The Joffrey murder was sealed I think back in Highgarden and only reinforced when Sansa admitted to QOT what a monster Joff was. I don't think it had anything to do with Tyrion marrying Sansa. The only reason I think they wanted Sansa to wed Wilas after her marriage to Tyrion, if they wanted it at all (and this is all conjecture on my part) is because everyone in the Red Keep knew that the marriage was not consummated. However, I have to wonder if they ever wanted the marriage between Sansa and Wilas if they helped in getting her framed for Joff's murder. They and LF were the ones that made Sansa wear the hairnet after all. What if someone noticed the hairnet and what the stones were? The immediate suspect would have been Sansa. I think the Tyrells are just as ambitious as the Lannisters and had the marriage between Tyrion and Sansa not occurred there would have always been plots within plots to undermine the Lannisters.

He was planning to have Sansa killed / kept prisoner and only send Tyrion and the son North. This is where he seriously misjudged the Northen bannermen as can be seen with the Pies and the North Remembers. tyrion would have had a hunting accident within a month. Tywin didn't see this possibility at all.

I don't think that he would have harmed Sansa but he would have kept Sansa as a hostage while sending Tyrion north with their child. It would have been extremely stupid to kill his only hold on the north. By keeping her hostage he would ensure that Tyrion did not have any hunting accidents. Even Manderly only moved against the Lannisters and Freys after his son was set free. The north would have stayed its hand as long as Sansa's life was on the balance scales imho.

[Shaggydog Stark]

There is a place called Moat Cailin, which no one ever secured from the south. it is said more than once that the North is able to defend it against way bigger armies coming from the South. The North has never been conquered, not even by the Targs. The Starks decided to just simply accept them as king rather than loosing a lot of life. Tywin thinking he can secure the North, while he has to secure the Riverlands (they hate the Lannisters, plus the BwB is active there), his armies already ragged, while he has to watch out for Stannis and the Tyrells was kinda foolish (since again no one ever managed to acomplish that.).

But Roose Bolton, Tywin's new Warden in the North did make it pass Moat Cailin, because they didn't take it from the south but from the north through Ramsay. I didn't mean that Tywin would go and secure the north himself. He is a player and has his pawns.

Had Tyrion and Sansa not been framed, Tyrion eventually would have gone north according to plan with his "Stark" son. It is only after Sansa disappears that they need to use a fake Stark (Jeyne/Arya) to try and bind the north. That didn't work so well because Ramsay is a sick psycho, Cersei released Manderly's son because of the genius Manderly plan to execute Davos. And most importantly, Manderly knows of at least one real Stark that is still alive namely Rickon. Not only is he a Stark but he is a male issue, which means he takes precedence over any female issues, so now Manderly can make his move.

[1234567]

Had Tyrion and Sansa not been framed, Tyrion eventually would have gone north according to plan with his "Stark" son. It is only after Sansa disappears that they need to use a fake Stark (Jeyne/Arya) to try and bind the north.

The fake Arya was set up way before that. When Jaime has his meeting with Roose in ASOS, he mentions that Arya has been found.

I think Sansa would have "died" in childbirth, or at least that's what the official story would be. Manderly only held back because it was his son. I hate to say it but I don't think the North would have accepted Tyrion, even if they held Sansa hostage.

You are right that we didn't see if Tywin had back-up plans to certain things and try may have worked out. But I think trying to marry your offspring into every important family, and in some instances by force, would have eventually led to widescale rebellion amongst the Bannermen and other important families. There is an example Oberyn uses in his talk with Tyrion, but I can't remember it right now.

Also I think the Tyrells are way more ruthless and calculating than the Lannisters, but are better at doing it behind the scenes.