Unpopular Opinions V

[Sevumar]

C'mon, does anyone really think he spent his life since Joanna's death perfectly chaste? I thought that was very naive on Cersei's part, personally.

I agree. He seems the type to use "lesser" women as he sees fit to meet his "needs" and knowing that no one can ever equal his wife. And let's face it, is Cersei so different than most of us in not wanting to imagine her parents having sex?

[headtrip_honey]

I think its a misinterpretation of his attitude. He says not to take the whore to court. That is far from an unreasonable request -- and if he hadn't made it, there's a fair chance Tyrion would have installed Shae in the Tower of the Hand. He doesn't ban whores until the threats on Tommen. He doesn't want whores/mistresses getting out of their places and embarrassing the family the way his father's mistress does. That's why he reacts the way he did to Tysha.

But there's no question that he doesn't have a problem with the institution of whoring itself, and he probably built the secret tunnel to Chataya's. He just thinks that Tyrion is a moron who doesn't know how to handle whores (and given the Tommen/Alayaya situation and inappropriate feelings for Shae, I can't say I disagree).

C'mon, does anyone really think he spent his life since Joanna's death perfectly chaste? I thought that was very naive on Cersei's part, personally.

These are good points. I acquiesce to your logic. :)

[Sevumar]

Oh, that's easy. Elia. Doran even wound up concerned about her safety in Sunspear.

It seemed to me that was for political reasons, because the dynasty she belonged to was illegitimate in the eyes of many Dornish. She did get hurt in the end because of the crazy scheme Arianne and her radical friends tried to carry off. I don't think it meant that she'd end up being the target of spousal abuse, though.

[Winterfell is Burning]

True, from our point of view. But I don't think it is so from his. I think it was the best marriage he could offer Tyrion. The daughter of one of the Great Houses of Westeros, to marry one of his sons. He could do this because they were at war with the Starks and didn't have to care about what they thought. Under normal circumstances the Starks would have rejected the offer. We know from his conversation with Tyrion that all the other houses he had approached on Tyrion's behalf had rejected him.

By this point, I think his plans with the Freys were already put in motion with regard to the RW. He was ensuring that once Robb died, the Lannisters would hold the north in Sansa's name. So I don't think shaming the Starks comes into it. To be honest, I also don't think Sansa's feelings mattered to him. I don't think he went out of his way to sexually humiliate her. She is nothing but a piece to him to be used in the best interest of house Lannister.

This was a very political decision quite different to what he did to Tysha and his father's mistress, which were very personal in nature.

ETA: Just wanted to add, that Tywin only marries Sansa to Tyrion after he discovers the Tyrell plot and realizes that left unmarried she was dangerous and could be used against house Lannister.

He had political reasons, sure, but seeing all the episodes that involved sexual humilliation with him, to me seems virtually impossible that publically humilliate Sansa wasn't one of his reasons.

Why would he care about witnesses? He claimed to have ordered the children killed himself.

To Tyrion, in private. In public, he always denied it and put the blame in Lorch when he died.

[Shaggydog Stark]

He had political reasons, sure, but seeing all the episodes that involved sexual humilliation with him, to me seems virtually impossible that publically humilliate Sansa wasn't one of his reasons.

Yeah I have concurred that this is a possibility, but I still don't think it is his primary reason.

[brashcandy]

Back to unpopular opinions: Am I the only one who finds Tywin's relationship with his wife to be rather inconsistent with his attitudes towards women?

Near as I can tell, Tywin views women as sexual objects and not really as people. If they piss him off, cue BRUTAL SEXUAL PUNISHMENT! He obviously loved Cersei when she was a little girl (that secret smile just for her) but he also used her rather like currency -- and later when he's making a marriage for her, he chooses Oberyn Martell (and Jaime's temper tantrum over that was very well founded) despite knowing what an awful husband he'd make, solely to piss off the Tyrells.

He makes no objections whatsoever to Tyrion's Dornish marriage to Myrcella despite the very clear dangers that it poses to Myrcella and the fact that it had a good chance of making her spend her lifetime as an abused wife. He seems quite pleased about that marriage, in fact.

Then there's the matter of Tysha, his father's poor mistress, Sansa, and Elia (I do subscribe to the belief that he intended for Gregor to assault Elia and is employing plausible deniability).

Yet his wife ruled him in all things. Huh?!

I have long been puzzled over this inconsistency myself. When I first read it I thought GRRM was trolling. I mean it makes absolutely no sense to me and I can't envision Tywin being any less than a brute to his wife given his treatment of women. I don't know if Johanna was the world's greatest actress or not, but I really wonder how she felt about Tywin truly.

[Tini]

I don't consider this contradictory. He probably believes that women who are mistreated by their husbands are to blame for it. They bring it on themselves by improper behavior. His own wife would never have done that. I'm certain Randyll Tarly subscribes to this theory.

Maybe his wife was the only woman Tywin ever considered as something else than a pawn in the game of thrones?

[brashcandy]

I don't consider this contradictory. He probably believes that women who are mistreated by their husbands are to blame for it. They bring it on themselves by improper behavior. His own wife would never have done that. I'm certain Randyll Tarly subscribes to this theory.

Maybe his wife was the only woman Tywin ever considered as something else than a pawn in the game of thrones?

Well, it's just something that's always nagged at me. For instance, I could believe that Sandor treats everyone else like shit, but Sansa, based on the fact that Sandor has never really cared much about anyone or anything. However, Sandor (despite what he might say) is kind not only to Sansa, but to Arya as well, and I think he would have rescued Lollys from that riot. It's not that I don't think Tywin could have only cared for Johanna and treated her well, it's that his particular penchant for sexually abusing and humiliating women really calls into question GRRM's assessment of their relationship.

[Shaggydog Stark]

Well, it's just something that's always nagged at me. For instance, I could believe that Sandor treats everyone else like shit, but Sansa, based on the fact that Sandor has never really cared much about anyone or anything. However, Sandor (despite what he might say) is kind not only to Sansa, but to Arya as well, and I think he would have rescued Lollys from that riot. It's not that I don't think Tywin could have only cared for Johanna and treated her well, it's that his particular penchant for sexually abusing and humiliating women really calls into question GRRM's assessment of their relationship.

Maybe, he only started his abuse after his father died, with his mistress. He did speak out against Genna's marriage to Emmon Frey when he was 10. So maybe this is something he developed later in life.

[Hound's She-wolf]

I have long been puzzled over this inconsistency myself. When I first read it I thought GRRM was trolling. I mean it makes absolutely no sense to me and I can't envision Tywin being any less than a brute to his wife given his treatment of women. I don't know if Johanna was the world's greatest actress or not, but I really wonder how she felt about Tywin truly.

I always thought that maybe Tywin had mentally built her up into the pefect woman-just like Robert and Lyanna, he's had 25 years or so of only memories. Or maybe, since they were cousins, he did feel that she really was just that much superior compared to other women since she came from his same family line.

No, I don't think Tywin stayed celibate after his wife's death either, I think he just kept that very private, because it's just business for him, unlike his son, he's not looking for love between someone's legs.

[kephv]

No, I don't think Tywin stayed celibate after his wife's death either, I think he just kept that very private, because it's just business for him, unlike his son, he's not looking for love between someone's legs.

Someone suggested that the underground tunnel to Chataya's was built for Tywin. I originally thought Jon Arryn but Tywin makes sense as well.

[Geddus]

If that was a way of sexually humiliating Sansa, then he must have been even more bent on sexually humiliating his own daughter. She was humiliated (and not only sexually) in her marriage with Robert.

Robert was quite the catch back then: he was very handsome, one of the better warriors of the realm (if not the best) and the freaking king. Cersei herself says that she was happy about her marriage, and no wonder, how could she have scored better? Sure, he liked to sleep around but it seems it's acceptable in Westeros, as long as it's done in a discreet way and the eventual bastards are kept out of sight.

Then Robert became a fat, drunk, bumbling idiot but that's another matter.

To Tyrion, in private. In public, he always denied it and put the blame in Lorch when he died.

I thought he brought the corpses to Robert as a gift. Isn't it an admission of responsibility?

And anyway, no one ever denied that Tywin's men were the murderers, so a witness wouldn't have changed anything.

[oba]

Maybe, he only started his abuse after his father died, with his mistress. He did speak out against Genna's marriage to Emmon Frey when he was 10. So maybe this is something he developed later in life.

I know Genna was appreciative of Tywin speaking up for her with respect to the marriage to Emmon, but I'm not so sureit's inconsistent with the attitudes we see from Tywin as an adult. Tytos agreeing to a marriage of his only daughter to a younger son of Walder Frey was just another example of Tytos showing weakness (note the reactions from Lord Reyne and Ellen Tarbeck [he left the hall in anger and she laughed out loud]). It may have had more to do with Tywin standing up for Lannister pride and opposing another of Tytos' "follies" than any desire to protect his sister or her feelings.

[Hound's She-wolf]

Someone suggested that the underground tunnel to Chataya's was built for Tywin. I originally thought Jon Arryn but Tywin makes sense as well.

Tricky bastard, I never thought of that about the tunnel.

[DoomPancakes]

Here's an unfavorable opinion I don't think I've shared...

Tysha was a gold digging whore. No where in the book (at least that I've found, someone can prove me wrong if they wish) does it state she was horribly upset about the whole barracks gangbang that happened. Tyrion was tore up, but Tysha left with a ton of money, and didn't seem too upset about the whole deal.

Maybe not literally a whore, but she was.

[kephv]

Here's an unfavorable opinion I don't think I've shared...

Tysha was a gold digging whore. No where in the book (at least that I've found, someone can prove me wrong if they wish) does it state she was horribly upset about the whole barracks gangbang that happened. Tyrion was tore up, but Tysha left with a ton of money, and didn't seem too upset about the whole deal.

Maybe not literally a whore, but she was.

I don't recall it being mentioned how she felt, but considering she was raped by half his guard barracks, I'd say the feeling was 'not too good'.

[DoomPancakes]

From what I remember, at least how I read it, Tyrion basically said "Tywin gave Tysha a silver for each guard, and had me pay her a gold coin afterwards, when she left, her hands were overflowing with coin."

I dunno, I just never got the impression it was rape. Dirty, wrong, yes. Rape? Dunno.

[Lemon Cake]

Tysha was a gold digging whore. No where in the book (at least that I've found, someone can prove me wrong if they wish) does it state she was horribly upset about the whole barracks gangbang that happened. Tyrion was tore up, but Tysha left with a ton of money, and didn't seem too upset about the whole deal.

Tysha's reaction wasn't mentioned for a couple of reasons. One, Tyrion had already written her off as a whore who betrayed him, based on Jaime and Tywin's lie, so he wasn't looking to see if she was upset. Two, Tyrion is spectacularly self-absorbed and doesn't spend much time thinking of anyone's misery but his own; he was too busy thinking about the wrong done to him to spare a thought for what Tysha might have been going through.

The fact her reaction wasn't mentioned is proof of nothing. Try again. Or not.

[Lemon Cake]

I dunno, I just never got the impression it was rape. Dirty, wrong, yes. Rape? Dunno.

Tyrion himself called it rape.

[Many and More]

No where in the book (at least that I've found, someone can prove me wrong if they wish) does it state she was horribly upset about the whole barracks gangbang that happened.

No, it doesn't state that Tysha was horribly upset about being gang raped. It doesn't state this for the same reason it doesn't state that people fall down rather than up when they fall off the battlements. Or that rain makes things wet, or that live people breathe all the time, or that it hurts to get punched in the head. These things are self-evident and do not require explanation by an author. Or at least up until now, I thought they didn't.