Unpopular Opinions V

[Tini]

There is no evidence that Sansa would have been killed after giving birth to a child. Tyrion would not have been okay with it, and I don't think Tywin gave it any thought. Because Sansa didn't interfere with his plans. I think the North would have accepted Tyrion if he had moved to the North with Sansa. As long as the North could see that Sansa was treated well. Just as they accepted the Boltons for Arya, but not if Arya was abused.

[idreamofpikas]

Doubtful. The Karstarks would be aghast at Lannister influence in the North. It would be a case of the Boltons and Karstarks waging a bloody civil was(with the other Lords taking respective sides) and Tyrion and Sansa stuck in the middle.

Far easier for Tywin to make deals with Bolton and various other Northern Lords and keep Sansa and her offspring south till the children reach adulthood.

[Orlov]

Just as they accepted the Boltons for Arya, but not if Arya was abused.

That sure wasn't why they accepted this marriage

[Tini]

Doubtful. The Karstarks would be aghast at Lannister influence in the North. It would be a case of the Boltons and Karstarks waging a bloody civil was(with the other Lords taking respective sides) and Tyrion and Sansa stuck in the middle.

Far easier for Tywin to make deals with Bolton and various other Northern Lords and keep Sansa and her offspring south till the children reach adulthood.

The Boltons would no longer be an issue. When Tywin Lannister made them Wardens of the North to pacify the North, he was quite sure that the job would weaken them considerably. I'm sure that he would have taken care of surviving Boltons. And there weren't that many Karstarks left, Robb killed some for treason, others didn't survive the war. The rest was fighting over the line of succession.

It might seem easier to keep Sansa south but that would increase rumors that she was a hostage, and mistreated. Sending her North might appease the Northern Lords - as Tyrion noted during Joffrey's wedding, she was good at it. Keeping her children south until they reached adulthood would keep them ignorant of Northern customs, and that would render them unacceptable to the Northern Lords - causing problems for them if they come into their inheritance. Ruling he North remotely is not feasible due to distances.

Assuming that Tywin didn't intend Tyrion and Sansa's children to fail up North, I think he might have established Tyrion and his family in the North before the Lords forget about the Starks. Making sure that the children would still be instructed on how to be proper Lannisters, and probably fostering at least some of them at Casterly Rock... thus making sure that the Lannister-Starks wouldn't try to shake off his control.

[Shaggydog Stark]

The fake Arya was set up way before that. When Jaime has his meeting with Roose in ASOS, he mentions that Arya has been found.

Right, however, I think she became the back-up plan after Sansa got away. I think initially, "Arya" was a bone thrown to one of Tywin's dogs to cement the Boltons to the Lannisters. She later became very important because Sansa went missing. That's what I meant, "Arya" gains importance only after Sansa is gone.

I think Sansa would have "died" in childbirth, or at least that's what the official story would be. Manderly only held back because it was his son. I hate to say it but I don't think the North would have accepted Tyrion, even if they held Sansa hostage.

I agree with you on the north issue. I too don't think they would have accepted Tyrion but as we see with the Ghost in Winterfell, there are ways of undermining the enemy without coming out in the open. Besides, we see the northerners really loved Ned and are loyal to his memory, so I think that they would have stayed their hand if Sansa's life was in peril. Btw, on a side note, am I the only one loving the northerners? Prior to ADWD I didn't find them terribly interesting except for the Greatjon, but after ADWD I really fell in love with the north and northerners.

You are right that we didn't see if Tywin had back-up plans to certain things and try may have worked out. But I think trying to marry your offspring into every important family, and in some instances by force, would have eventually led to widescale rebellion amongst the Bannermen and other important families. There is an example Oberyn uses in his talk with Tyrion, but I can't remember it right now.

Agreed. But the only family that Tywin forced a marriage on was the Stark family which he believed was wiped out and he believed he held the last living heir and he had the fake Arya, both his basically to do with as he pleased. He didn't know that the boys are still alive. The northerners on the other hand know better. Some of them know that Sansa is not the heir and that the entire family is not wiped out so they can plan rebellion. However, if Sansa had truly been Ned Stark's heir, I don't think they would have made any move that might endanger Sansa's life. Even with one son alive, Sansa immediately loses her value and becomes less of a bargaining chip. Anyway, this is a moot point since Sansa "escaped" and Tywin died, but that is how I see it had Sansa not escaped and Tywin remained alive.

Also I think the Tyrells are way more ruthless and calculating than the Lannisters, but are better at doing it behind the scenes.

I absolutely agree with this. I think the Tyrells would always try to outmaneuver the Lannisters because they are just as ambitious as the Lannisters. That is why I don't think it was the Tyrion/Sansa marriage that turned the Tyrells into smiling enemies. I think the Tyrells came into this whole affair wanting to dislodge the Lannisters. Basically, I think when it comes right down to it, what theTyrells want is as much power as they can lay their hands on. They want the throne!

Who is standing between them and this ambition? The Lannisters. However, Tywin and later Kevan were able to appease them to a certain extent, to keep them happy with important official posts while trying to ruin their bigger plots. The Tyrells and Lannisters could have continued playing this game with each other while being allies against all others. Cersei ruined the delicate balance when she started ruling.

That's how I look at it, who knows I may be wrong :dunno:

[Shaggydog Stark]

Doubtful. The Karstarks would be aghast at Lannister influence in the North. It would be a case of the Boltons and Karstarks waging a bloody civil was(with the other Lords taking respective sides) and Tyrion and Sansa stuck in the middle.

Far easier for Tywin to make deals with Bolton and various other Northern Lords and keep Sansa and her offspring south till the children reach adulthood.

The Karstarks were allies of the Boltons/Lannisters. Arnolf Karstark didn't give a damn that Jaime killed Lord Rickard's sons.

[brashcandy]

Emotionally speaking, Sansa Stark is the strongest person in Westeros.

[brashcandy]

double post edit

[Bourne]

I think your view of Tywin's decisions is skewed because he died. In the end it didn't work out for him, which makes it seem like he wasn't successful. But in reality, he only made two mistakes.

The first, was being cruel to Tyrion.

The second, was forgetting Jaime loved Tyrion.

If he doesn't do those things he doesn't die. He didn't make any political mistakes. It just seems like he did because he ended up dead. But that was because of his failures as a father, not a political failure.

The idea that he's on the same level as Cersei is preposterous. I don't see him making any mistakes after he comes to kings landing. He may not have been very considerate of peoples feelings, but that isn't really a mistake. Remember, he ruled as Hand under Aerys for almost two decades when westeros was at it's most prosperous. It's really kinda silly to question his abilities as a ruler.

Now I do think he's an overrated battle commander. He's very good, but everybody transposes his political abilities into his military abilities. He's more than capable at boht, but his true talent lies in politics.

[Winterfell is Burning]

I think your view of Tywin's decisions is skewed because he died. In the end it didn't work out for him, which makes it seem like he wasn't successful. But in reality, he only made two mistakes.

The first, was being cruel to Tyrion.

The second, was forgetting Jaime loved Tyrion.

If he doesn't do those things he doesn't die. He didn't make any political mistakes. It just seems like he did because he ended up dead. But that was because of his failures as a father, not a political failure.

The idea that he's on the same level as Cersei is preposterous. I don't see him making any mistakes after he comes to kings landing. He may not have been very considerate of peoples feelings, but that isn't really a mistake. Remember, he ruled as Hand under Aerys for almost two decades when westeros was at it's most prosperous. It's really kinda silly to question his abilities as a ruler.

Now I do think he's an overrated battle commander. He's very good, but everybody transposes his political abilities into his military abilities. He's more than capable at boht, but his true talent lies in politics.

No, he made several mistakes politically wise. Alienating the Tyrells unnecessarily and giving too much power to Littlefinger after being told he's extremely dangerous specially, but also get too close to the Freys, underestimate the Northern loyalty to the Starks and disgust with the Red Wedding, overextend his army in the Riverlands, underestimate the Martells hate and desire for vengeance- he actually wanted to marry Cersei to Oberyn!, etc.

Of course, many of those are flaws that come from the fact he doesn't understand people too well, or doesn't try too, but they are mistakes that many people wouldn't make- who else would offer his daughter to a man whose sister you had raped and killed, and well aware that he knows or at least suspects that?

[Bourne]

How did he alienate the Tyrells unnecessarily? It was necessary for him to marry Sansa to Tyrion if he wanted to stay more powerful than the Tyrells. If he lets Willas marry her the Tyrells gain the North. It's better for him to marry Sansa to a Lannister and gain some Tyrell resentment than to lose the north to Willas. He had no choice about letting LF go to the Vale. It was his only course if he wanted to control the Vale. And I'm not quite sure how it backfired.

And as for the Freys, North and the Red Wedding, I don't think that he underestimated anything. It was the best way to neutralize the Starks. Sure, the North hates him for it. But if he doesn't do it he's at war with the North. Now he's in control of the North (admittedly tenuous). It's a much better position.

Not sure about overextending, but that's a military decision. And again, he didn't really have much of a choice. He needs to control the riverlands, the only way to do that is with a military. I also don't know how it hurt him.

And yes, he may have underestimated the Martells hate, but again, how did that lead to a mistake? Actually marrying Cersei to Oberyn would be a great political move. And if they say no, well that's not a mistake. Thats just a rejection...

And Tywin didn't rape and murder Oberyn's sister.

[Winterfell is Burning]

How did he alienate the Tyrells unnecessarily? It was necessary for him to marry Sansa to Tyrion if he wanted to stay more powerful than the Tyrells. If he lets Willas marry her the Tyrells gain the North. It's better for him to marry Sansa to a Lannister and gain some Tyrell resentment than to lose the north to Willas.

He could simply have denied the request of Sansa going to Highgarden. Marrying her off first, and specifically to his dwarf son, just sends a message they are at war, even if it wasn't the intention, not to mention it says "Hey, look at the girl you judged to be fit to your son's bride- to me, she's just a toy to an ugly dwarf", which also implies that they are inferior to him.

He had no choice about letting LF go to the Vale. It was his only course if he wanted to control the Vale. And I'm not quite sure how it backfired.

The Vale would have remained neutral. Sending LF there made him out of Tywin's sight, and Tywin made him Lord Paramount of the Riverlands and Warden of the West, this is an absurd amount of power for a man he was specifically told that was dangerous and untrustworthy.

And as for the Freys, North and the Red Wedding, I don't think that he underestimated anything. It was the best way to neutralize the Starks. Sure, the North hates him for it. But if he doesn't do it he's at war with the North. Now he's in control of the North (admittedly tenuous). It's a much better position.

For one thing, Robb would have gone North to deal with Iron Born and the wildlings, both of them also problems for Tywin. And while it gives short-term gain for him, in the long run it causes much more resentment and problems. The North went to war because of a Stark being killed, did he really think he could control them after killing two Starks and hundreds of men in the most coward way possible? That's short-sighted. NOBODY can keep their power based on strength alone forever.

Sooner or later the North would rise again, and it would be much worse this time. If they simply decide to declare independence and keep themselves in the North, Tywin's only choice would be fight them in the North, something no one ever did successfully.

Not sure about overextending, but that's a military decision. And again, he didn't really have much of a choice. He needs to control the riverlands, the only way to do that is with a military. I also don't know how it hurt him.

He spends too much soldiers, time and money; his army is melting away, something noticed even in the far North. He also puts too many Lannisters with their own castles- Darry, Riverrun, I think Daven would get something too if I'm not mistaken, in an area nearly impossible to defend, and marries them all to the hated Freys, making his participation in the Red Wedding undeniable.

Plus, in the future, it can lead to conflicts since too many people with Lannister blood would have military power and possible claims.

Compare with Aegon the Conqueror- he had DRAGONS, and yet he didn't removed every lord there was out there and put Targaryens as lords. They kept themselves to KL and Summerhall only, and yet they still had lots of wars between themselves; imagine if there was a Targaryen controlling the Reach, another controlling the Riverlands, a third in the Vale, etc.

And yes, he may have underestimated the Martells hate, but again, how did that lead to a mistake? Actually marrying Cersei to Oberyn would be a great political move. And if they say no, well that's not a mistake. Thats just a rejection...

Offering Cersei was an unnecessary insult. If he did not underestimated the Martells hate, he wouldn't have brought Gregor to fight whoever Tyrion choose to be his champion, because he knew Oberyn would take the chance, whether by fighting or killing him in some ways. Of course, the trial by combat put him in a lose-lose situation- further alienating either the Dornish (like it happened) or the Tyrells (if Oberyn had survived).

As for the effects- besides giving the Martells a chance to destroy them from inside, it will only increase their desire for vengeance, and I think we'll see more of that in TWOW.

And Tywin didn't rape and murder Oberyn's sister.

No, Gregor did, on Tywin's orders- unless if we're led to believe that the man that ordered the mass rape of his 13 year old son's wife, tries to sexually humilliate Sansa and the Starks by putting their beautiful 12 year old daughter with an ugly dwarf would never do such a thing.

[Bourne]

1) He could have. But that would have been even more insulting since it implies he doesn't trust the Tyrells. If he doesn't marry her to someone he has to insult them by refusing to let her go. Instead he pretends to not know and conveniently marries Sansa off so she's no use. The Tyrells can't be offended because they never let their intentions about Sansa be know.

It was the better solution.

2) He can't be sure the Vale stays neutral. They have no reason to love him. If they do go to war most likely it will be against him. He needs their knights to if not fight for him, at least be sure they won't fight against him. Sending LF to corral them was better than doing nothing. It was the wiser move. You're viewing this from the point of the all-knowing reader. Tywin can only see so much. He weighs each situation and does what he thinks best. Even if his actions don't work out for the better, it's only a mistake if he chose to do the wrong thing based off of his personal knowledge. Sending LF to the Vale was the best thing based off of what he knew.

3) Well they're doing a pretty good job of controlling it so far. But your point about the North declaring independence is exactly why he has to go through with the Red Wedding. If he lets them go back North he's in a lot worse position to regain control of them. It would be almost impossible to invade the North. It's pretty much his only chance to control them.

And he's the enemy... there is going to be resentment no matter what he does.

The Red Wedding isn't a long-term solution, but it puts them in a better position than they would be in the long-term trying to invade the north.

4) He put a Frey in Riverrun. Daven was Warden of the west (which was Cersei's doing), and was engaged to another Frey. He rewarded those who were Loyal to them. That's kinda important to maintain loyalty. It's not as if he sent the Lannister armies to hold those castles. The personal armies of the respective lords were supposed to do that.

Anyway you're thinking too long-term. I'm not even going to touch your premise, but even if it does cause problems down the road it's still better for them to be in power with problems than exterminated. Would you rather have civil wars to determine which of your descendants is the king, or would it be better for them to be farmers?

5) It wasn't an insult. He was offering to let them into the most powerful family in the family. Even better, it was the Queen regent of the seven kingdoms.

But bringing Gregor was Cerseis work, not Tywins.

6) In SoS Tywin specifically tells Tyrion that he didn't order Gregor to rape or kill Elia.

[kephv]

6) In SoS Tywin specifically tells Tyrion that he didn't order Gregor to rape or kill Elia.

Yes but the Red Viper seems to think otherwise. He considered it his payback for the whole Rhaegar/Cersei ordeal. Now whether or not Tywin was telling the truth I find it hard to say.

[Bourne]

Yes but the Red Viper seems to think otherwise. He considered it his payback for the whole Rhaegar/Cersei ordeal. Now whether or not Tywin was telling the truth I find it hard to say.

I think it's the truth. We obviously know about the Tysha incident, so does Tywin seem like the type of guy who would be ashamed of ordering Elia raped and murdered? Why would lie to Tyrion about it? He's already trusted Tyrion with the truth about Gregor being responsible and his plan to lie and say it was Lorch, and he's obviously not worried about Tyrions's opinion of him. I don't see any reason for him to lie about Elia. He even says there was no reason for Elia to die. It would actually be worse for her to die (as we've obviously seen).

[ARYa_Nym]

"Elia need not have been harmed at all, that was sheer folly. By herself she was nothing." "Then why did the Mountain kill her?" "Because I did not tell him to spare her. I doubt I mentioned her at all. I had more pressing concerns."

He didn't know what he had with Gregor and Lorch. The children were killed in a brutal manner and Elia was raped and killed.

[dem]

1. I don't know if this is an unpopular opinion or not, but why the hell is Arys Oakheart a POV character?

Seriously, he was a background character at BEST in the first three books. Then shortly after his first and only chapter as a POV in AFFC he gets his ass foolishly handed to him by Areo.

His only chapter as a POV could have easily been told through Arianne's POV, giving her one more additional chapter in AFFC and entirely removing IMO a frivolous POV character. His thoughts let us know that he's extremely ashamed of breaking his oath with Arianne, but that could have easily been perceived through her POV because she is smart enough to know the simultaneous shame and lust that he is feeling.

2. On the otherhand my likely unpopular opinion is that Areoh Hotah is bloody awesome and I'm hoping to see a lot more POV chapters from him in the next two books. Something about him just fascinates me. He seems instantly able to size up the abilities of a potential opponent. He assumes that he and Arys will come to blows and that he will kill Arys. Sure enough, he is proven right and kills him with ease. Then in ADWD he sizes up Ser Balon Swann and sees immediately that he would be a more worthy opponent, but doesn't actually assume they will come to blows like he did with Arys. Something about this aspect of his character really tickles my fancy even though it will probably prove to be a very minor thing in the long run. Either way, I'm hoping this SOB explodes onto the page in TWoW!

3. Starting with AFFC; but especially in ADWD, the POV chapters become infuriatingly off-balance! I understand that certain characters are going to be a lot more important in the long run and I can live with that. But in an interview with EW, GRRM said he wanted the story in ADWD to go further than it did. Do you know how you could have done that? Cut out 2 or 3 chapters EACH from Jon, Dany and Tyrion. Then you would have a lot more room for more chapters from the other POVs.

Jon and Tyrion are in my top 5 characters. Even so I think that some of their chapters were fairly dull and on the lengthy side. A few chapters could have easily been removed or at least truncated by mentioning the events in PASSING in some of the other existing chapters for those characters. Jon has 13 chapters, Tyrion 12. Neither one of them needed to have more than 10 each.

Dany is not one of my favorites at all but I don't hate her in the slightest. But I tend to like her character a lot more when used sparingly. In AGoT Dany has 10 chapters and I dreaded stumbling upon a new one if only because it was keeping me away from Westeros. Despite being interested with her storyline, I suspected from book 1 that she wouldn't be merging with any of the other characters anytime soon. In ACoK and ASoS she had 5 and then 6 chapters respectively which I felt to be a much greater balance for her character. Then in ADWD she is back up to 10 chapters and just...ugh. IMO 4-5 of her chapters could have been cut to serve a much better book(her final chapter was pretty awesome). But if I were Martin's editor I'd have been willing to let him keep 7-8 of them intact. :P

What bugs me a lot more than what I said above is that GRRM seems to be putting certain characters in situations that allow him to not have to write about them for a great deal of time. Take Davos(another of my top 5) in ADWD. After 4 chapters in the first half of the book his role at this point in the story is just heating up. But Martin knows well enough that he has enough travelogue characters as it is... so he is absolved from writing more Davos. I was practically begging for at least one more Davos chapter to pop up near the end of ADWD but... no dice.

[1234567]

6) In SoS Tywin specifically tells Tyrion that he didn't order Gregor to rape or kill Elia.

And you believe him?

You don't send Gregor Clegane to smother a baby. You send Gregor Clegane to cause carnage and terror.

Given he had Tysha raped horrifically (that whole phrase Tyrion says on his wedding night about silver and gold coins on a bloody sheet, suggests it was particularly brutal), forced Sansa into marriage and demanded that Tyrion consummate it, had his father's mistress walk naked through Lannisport and burnt and destroyed the Riverrlands, I think he definetely took revenge on Areys marrying Elia to Rhaeghar by having Gregor rape her. Sexually humiliating women does seem to be kind of a thing Tywin does.

[Shaggydog Stark]

And you believe him?

You don't send Gregor Clegane to smother a baby. You send Gregor Clegane to cause carnage and terror.

Given he had Tysha raped horrifically (that whole phrase Tyrion says on his wedding night about silver and gold coins on a bloody sheet, suggests it was particularly brutal), forced Sansa into marriage and demanded that Tyrion consummate it, had his father's mistress walk naked through Lannisport and burnt and destroyed the Riverrlands, I think he definetely took revenge on Areys marrying Elia to Rhaeghar by having Gregor rape her. Sexually humiliating women does seem to be kind of a thing Tywin does.

I can't believe I am defending Tywin :ack: .

Yes Tywin is a monster and he does sexually humiliate women. However, he seems to do that sort of thing with common women not noble ladies. I honestly don't think he ordered Elia's rape because he saw no political gain from it and as Arya_Nym has pointed out he did not know what kind of monster he had in Lorch and Gregor Clegane. By the time Gregor rapes and kills Elia, Aerys was already dead. What is the point of taking revenge on someone when they are not around to see it?

He wanted the children dead and he does not deny it to Tyrion but Elia, on her own, was of no value to him.

[Tini]

Shaggydog, I totally agree. He wanted the children dead. He didn't order Elia's death. He knew that Dorne would be upset about the children's deaths, no matter if Elia lived or died, therefore I don't think Tywin was upset about her death; he was upset about the manner of their dying. Because he knew that the circumstances of their deaths would infuriate Dorne further. He knew that even people who agreed with his orders would blame him for the atrocious manner in which they were killed.