European debt deal

[The Iceman of the North]

It's a very strong convention in the Westminster systems that to be a minister you need to be an MP (more specifically, in the UK if you're getting appointed to the Prime Ministership, it's the House of Commons, hence Sir Alec Douglas-Home quitting the Lords to sit in the Commons on his appointment). In New Zealand, we've codified that convention so that by statute (more specifically, the Constitution Act 1986), a minister of the crown needs to be a member of the House of Representatives.

Greece does not have a Westminster system, so how you do things in a Westminster system isn't very relevant here. In Norway for instance, the cabinet members, including the PM, lose their seat in parliament while they sit in the cabinet. As a consequence there's plenty of cabinet members in Norway that where never a MP, but I guess you don't value competence in your cabinet members.

But, yes, what is now happening in Greece is incredibly disturbing from a democratic viewpoint. It's times like this where you can't help but wonder whether the old Communists were right, and that Western "democracy" is really a sham to trick ordinary people into believing that they have a say in a system that is really all about protecting the ruling class.

Why? The Greek elected a parliament, the new government have support from this parliament, so what is disturbing about it? Greece is a representative democracy, not a direct democracy, thus until the next election, it's up to the elected representatives to deal with whatever situation occours.

[paddington]

post #241

It's a little disturbing in Greece, because it seems like interests foregin to Greece have basically blackmailed the Greek Parliament, into excepting a non-elected leader. Thats the perception, not necessarily the reality.

In Italy it's a little disturbing because a non-elected leader is going to conduct a smash and grab raid on Italian assists. Those assists may in-fact need to be sold off, however the leadership has not allowed the Italian electorate a say in the matter.

I just get the feeling it's going to end with a lot of resentment towards other EU memeber states, and an increase in social unrest in both those countries.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Greece does not have a Westminster system, so how you do things in a Westminster system isn't very relevant here.

Your words were: To be a PM in a parliamentary system, you need the support (or lack the opposition) of half the parliament, you don't actually have to be a member of the parliament.

I was simply pointing out that in a significiant sub-section of parliamentary systems (i.e. those deriving from the Westminster tradition), you do have to be a member of parliament to be a PM. It was an utterly harmless clarification.

but I guess you don't value competence in your cabinet members.

Eh? Please don't turn this into "my political system is better than your political system".

Why? The Greek elected a parliament, the new government have support from this parliament, so what is disturbing about it? Greece is a representative democracy, not a direct democracy, thus until the next election, it's up to the elected representatives to deal with whatever situation occours.

You're missing the point: no-one elected this new PM, and he will probably never have to stand for election, or even be answerable to the Greek population at all. Indeed, he is under quite clear instructions to ignore the will of the Greek people, and simply accept what ever diktats get handed down from Brussells and Berlin.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Iceman,

If we value competence over popluar election why have elections at all? (Says the guy who's nation has an entire "fourth branch" of government that is completely unelected and below department heads completely out of even the tangential control of the electorate)

[Altherion]

If we value competence over popluar election why have elections at all?

Now you're getting it. This is one of the policies of EU leadership:

By the end of the week, not only was Berlusconi finished, so was the very idea of holding a vote to replace him. The markets had spoken, and they didn't like the idea of going to the electorate. "The country needs reforms, not elections," said Herman Van Rompuy, president of the European Council on a visit to Rome Friday.

He's talking about Italy, but the same goes double for Greece. Incidentally, Berlusconi's most likely replacement is currently Mario Monti who was made Senator for life last week. Monti is an economist who was formerly part of various European Commissions and an international adviser to Goldman Sachs. He's also the member of a bunch of think tanks and the like (conspiracy theorists are going to love this: he's both the European chairman of the Trilateral Commission and on the steering committee of the Bilderberg Group). Now, Italy is not Greece: it's not guaranteed that he will actually become the PM. However, there's definitely a tendency to keep major decisions as far away from the electorate as possible in a democratic system.

[The Iceman of the North]

I was simply pointing out that in a significiant sub-section of parliamentary systems (i.e. those deriving from the Westminster tradition), you do have to be a member of parliament to be a PM. It was an utterly harmless clarification.

Sorry, I misconstrued your meaning.

You're missing the point: no-one elected this new PM, and he will probably never have to stand for election, or even be answerable to the Greek population at all.

The Greek PM is never 'elected'. Greece got a parliamentary system, which means that the parliament appoint the PM. The PM is answerable to the parliament, while the MP's are answerable to the people.

If we value competence over popluar election why have elections at all?

Do tell me. In most cases they are either appointed by a the parliament, or by an elected head of government. Do you have any examples of governments that are directly eelected?

[ants]

It's a very strong convention in the Westminster systems that to be a minister you need to be an MP (more specifically, in the UK if you're getting appointed to the Prime Ministership, it's the House of Commons, hence Sir Alec Douglas-Home quitting the Lords to sit in the Commons on his appointment). In New Zealand, we've codified that convention so that by statute (more specifically, the Constitution Act 1986), a minister of the crown needs to be a member of the House of Representatives.

But, yes, what is now happening in Greece is incredibly disturbing from a democratic viewpoint. It's times like this where you can't help but wonder whether the old Communists were right, and that Western "democracy" is really a sham to trick ordinary people into believing that they have a say in a system that is really all about protecting the ruling class.

The UK minister for business under Brown wasn't elected. Can't remember his name off the top of my head though.

Generally think the idea has merit. After all, most politicians aren't actually elected because they have prior experience running big departments/businesses etc. Yet they're expected to do so if their party wins government.

And as has been mentioned, in the US the cabinet isn't elected.

[paddington]

The UK minister for business under Brown wasn't elected. Can't remember his name off the top of my head though.

Peter Mandelson. Also the House of Lords is not elected in the UK.

It isn't a meritless idea, however considering how unpleasent it may become for both normal Italians and Greeks, I can't help but feel it's a bad idea. Which will only lead to trouble. It also looks like both appointements are to appease foregin interests/ diplomatic pressure.

If the UK had joined the Euro, we could be looking at the very same kind of appointement, I suspect that would not end particularly well.

[KAH]

Bureaucrats were given the power in some other European country a few years ago. Although, can't remember which one...

Belgium, perhaps? I believe they've been on and off administrative interregnum for a few years now...

[Padraig]

If the UK had joined the Euro, we could be looking at the very same kind of appointement, I suspect that would not end particularly well.

Only if you think the UK would be in the same economic state as Greece or Italy.

It isn't a meritless idea, however considering how unpleasent it may become for both normal Italians and Greeks, I can't help but feel it's a bad idea. Which will only lead to trouble. It also looks like both appointements are to appease foregin interests/ diplomatic pressure.

Any option they take will lead to trouble. There is no good options.

And you may only dislike the idea of a bureacrat becoming PM because it is alien to the democratic system in your country. In other systems it isn't so strange.

It isn't difficult to understand why reform is a more important right now than elections. Whatever your feelings on the matter, this is a serious time. I hope there are elections soon in those countries but I can see why some sort of stability would be appreciated first.

Belgium, perhaps? I believe they've been on and off administrative interregnum for a few years now...

Belgium did cross my mind but somehow it didn't seem right to me. But perhaps it is them since I can't think of another possibility except somewhere in Eastern Europe

Indeed, he is under quite clear instructions to ignore the will of the Greek people, and simply accept what ever diktats get handed down from Brussells and Berlin.

What should the Greek government do then? I feel it is too easy for people to condemn since the Greek government is in a really terrible position. There are other options but nobody would say they are painless.

[Lyanna Stark]

If the UK had joined the Euro, we could be looking at the very same kind of appointement, I suspect that would not end particularly well.

While I agree that it is better for the UK to be outside the Euro (at least for the present), comparing the UK to Greece is like comparing apples and oranges, The UK economy may have its faults, but it is a large and powerful economy, taxation works smoothly, corruption is not a problem and a lot of sectors are competitive internationally. Greece's economy is small, it cannot tax its subjects and has a host of other problems the UK hasn't got.

While the UK needs to sort out its debt issues, apart from that there really aren't any major hurdles compared to Greece and some other southern EU countries. Unfortunately, saving every penny I think may *create* problems in the UK, since money for education is being cut, University fees are increasing, youth unemployment is sky high etc.

And you may only dislike the idea of a bureacrat becoming PM because it is alien to the democratic system in your country. In other systems it isn't so strange.

Our PM was elected, but the reason he was so is because he is a proper grey bureaucrat. It's not always bad to have one of those at the top. They may lack visions, but what they often can do is take care of the administrative bits, which is what is needed in recession times. Our Chancellor was brought in 100% as a bureaucrat. George Osborne wants to be this guy (or at least steal his methods to run a stable economy).

EDIT: I might add that Sweden's economy is nearly impeccable, which is very unlike how it was during the crash in the 90s where we basically turned into the northernmost banana republic on the planet.

[Shryke]

If the UK were on the Euro, it would be like France right now, not like Greece. So ... probably fucked eventually as this whole situation collapses, but not right now and not for certain if the Eurozone someone magically gets it's shit together and actually solves the issues at hand.

[ants]

Peter Mandelson. Also the House of Lords is not elected in the UK.

It isn't a meritless idea, however considering how unpleasent it may become for both normal Italians and Greeks, I can't help but feel it's a bad idea. Which will only lead to trouble. It also looks like both appointements are to appease foregin interests/ diplomatic pressure.

If the UK had joined the Euro, we could be looking at the very same kind of appointement, I suspect that would not end particularly well.

How would that differ to Osborne anyway?

[paddington]

I tend to agree, every option looks quite unpleasent for Greece and Italy. I am I guess just like a lot of people in Europe right now, I don't have a great understanding of economics; I've been reading up though, which probably doesn't help. I am not overly sure on who to trust about the information thats handed out.

I am just worried that this is all going to end in a huge mess that no-one foresaw, an no-one can fix. I also worry that I am not been told the whole truth about the situation.

Edit:- Osbourne is elected, it was reasonably clear that he would be Chancoller before the election. It was also quite clear there would be some austerity measures brought in if the Tories won that Election.

His selection to cabniet wasn't due to external pressure. We generally know when we can unelect the sitting government. We sort of knew what we were going to get when we voted.

Neither Greece or Italy know what they are going to get, or how long they are getting it for. It could be that it's the best thing.

[Horza]

I am just worried that this is all going to end in a huge mess

'end in?' :P

that no-one foresaw,

Quite a few people did. (Hereward has a list longer than space itself)

an no-one can fix.

'can' is different from 'will'

I also worry that I am not been told the whole truth about the situation.

Goldman's (1983) first principle applies.

[paddington]

Great link to Nouriel Roubin's article Horza, thanks. He even got pretty close to predicting the date.

I don't actually see this as the end, I have an awful worry that this mess is just the starting mess.

Also the adverse reaction he received is not unexpected, I tend to keep my opinon about closer EU integration to myself, as I like to not think of myself as a little Englander.

[Horza]

Also the adverse reaction he received is not unexpected, I tend to keep my opinon about closer EU integration to myself, as I like to not think of myself as a little Englander.

This is quite interesting for an outsider as I think it speaks to one of the reasons this thing is such a godawful mess.

I'm supposed to be writing an essay on the federation of the Australian colonies, and one of the themes that I've picked up on is the role of imagination and the romance of nationhood in overcoming the gritty conflicts of interest that blocked previous attempts to unite these relatively compatible states.

Simple pragmatism alone wasn't going to do it, as minimal projects to create customs unions had stalled when they ran up against powerful local vested interests, so paradoxically the process had to be inspired by more than what made economic sense: prestige, national recognition, a place on the world stage - all these intangible, invaluable consequences of federation were what got these guys over the hurdle, and I think something similar has happened with the Euro, only this time it's really bollocks.

The idea seems to have been 'yeah, we'll get monetary union and then the fiscal stuff will come later' and the romance of the project - supranationalism, eternal peace and prosperity has been such that it's been so easy for politicians and policymakers to wave away sensible criticisms by charging critics as wreckers and lumping them with the Union Jack waistcoats brigade.

[Artas]

Aaaand our populist party has ordered an investigation into the costs and benefits of returning to the Dutch guilder...

I guess it was only a matter of time. :rolleyes:

[Padraig]

Neither Greece or Italy know what they are going to get, or how long they are getting it for. It could be that it's the best thing.

Greece is looking at elections for next February last I heard. Or has that changed? The idea is that we get a unity government in Greece, strive for some sort of stability and then have elections. (Reasonable in theory at least). While Papademos is a banker, not a politician, the rest of the cabinet is full of the usual MPs but they range across the parties. We are certainly in extraordinary times and a unity government is appropriate. Most countries aren't so fixed on the one party in power rule.

[Altherion]

The idea is that we get a unity government in Greece, strive for some sort of stability and then have elections.

"Some sort of stability" is a strange way to put it. The idea is that Papademos & Co. implement the terms of the debt deal and then leave before the rioting in the streets gets out of hand.