Occupy Wall Street - Winter is Coming Edition

[Tempra]

It would appear that Zuccotti Park is a privately owned public-access plaza, created in 1968 by a City Planning special permit issued pursuant to then existing authority of the New York City Zoning Resolution, which encouraged the creation of space for public use in exchange for additional or “bonus” development rights given to the owners of adjoining properties.... [T]he special permit requires that Zuccotti Park be open to the public and maintained for public use 365 days per year.... ome time after the Occupy Wall Street began, [the park owner] promulgated rules which prohibited, among other things,

“Camping and/or the erection of tents or other structures.

Lying down on the ground, or lying down on benches ...

The placement of tarps or sleeping bags or other covering on the property

Storage of placement of personal property on the ground, benches, sitting areas or

walkways which unreasonably interferes with the use of such areas by others”

The parties dispute whether the First Amendment applies to the actions of the owner [of Zuccotti Park] in enacting the rules [against sleeping in the park].... Assuming arguendo, that the owner’s maintenance of the space must not violate the First Amendment, the owner has the right to adopt reasonable rules that permit it to maintain a clean, safe, publicly accessible space consonant with the responsibility it assumed to provide public access according to law....

[M]ovants have not demonstrated that the rules adopted by the owners of the property, concededly after the demonstrations began, are not reasonable time, place, and manner restrictions permitted under the First Amendment.

To the extent that City law prohibits the erection of structures, the use of gas or other combustible materials, and the accumulation of garbage and human waste in public places, enforcement of the law and the owner’s rules appears reasonable to permit the owner to maintain its space in a hygienic, safe, and lawful condition, and to prevent it from being liable [to] the City or others for violations of law, or in tort. It also permits public access by those who live and work in the area who are the intended beneficiaries of this zoning bonus.

The movants have not demonstrated that they have a First Amendment right to remain in Zuccotti Park, along with their tents, structures, generators, and other installations to the exclusion of the owner’s reasonable rights and duties to maintain Zuccotti Park, or to the rights to public access of others who might wish to use the space safely.

http://www.cbsnews.c...ain;contentBody

[tzanth]

A trial court in NY just ruled that protestors cannot camp out in the park indefinitely. Specifically, he ordered that they may protest during the day but cannot return with tents and generators.

So what? :dunno:

What authority does this judge have, other than the authority of the violence of the state, which is already being used against the occupiers?

[Crazydog7]

The NYPD, in the process of the eviction, destroyed over 5000 books in the OWS library.

Dontcha love a little book burning on a Tuesday morning?

This pisses me off more then anything else that has been done oddly enough. I'm an Amazon bookseller it will not buy a house but it does pay my bills right now (link is below and I would appropriate any business yadda yadda)

the thought of books instruments of learning being thrown out by agents of a callous and corrupt oligarchy makes me want to puke. Its not bad enough that the population in large is growing less and less literate and by extension less and less creative. The fact that it was all done with such two faced smarmness oh yes lets conduct a raid to preserve public space and property and then not give a shit that personal property of OWS protesters gets destroyed.

Also while I'm at it is there any word on what happened to all of the confiscated generators, medical supplies and clothing? No. Didn't think so. Reminds me of all the stories of missing valuables at the World Trade Center site.

Hey NYPD since you're already half way there with the book burnings why not bring back jackboots and brown shirts?

I'm sorry OWS but its been clear for some time that as goes New York so goes the nation with these protests a by and large peaceful series of demonstrations will be busted up on exaggerated claims or claims that was just made up. For the love of God native New Yorkers vote next time if you are fed up with this and toss Bloomburg out on his ass.

[Horza]

Apparently the collection wasn't totally destroyed, but what % are salvageable remains to be seen.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Tzanth,

If you buy into Marbury and McCullough courts have the power, inherently, to clarify the specific meanings of Constitutional provisions.

[Tempra]

So what? :dunno:

What authority does this judge have, other than the authority of the violence of the state, which is already being used against the occupiers?

Anarchists are cute.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

If you buy into the concept that government use of force is inherently illegitimate, then how can you enforce any regulations, or collect taxes from corporations?

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

If you buy into the concept that government use of force is inherently illegitimate, then how can you enforce any regulations, or collect taxes from corporations?

It is not a threat of violence, but the threat of loss of money or liberty that enforces regulations. I don't know anyone who is afraid they will be beat with billy clubs or tear gassed for failing to pay their taxes.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

They made me get a flu shot

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Er, that was supposed to be a text to my wife. I hate Research in Motion.

[Tempra]

It is not a threat of violence, but the threat of loss of money or liberty that enforces regulations. I don't know anyone who is afraid they will be beat with billy clubs or tear gassed for failing to pay their taxes.

Err, threats of judgments and/or imprisonment are a use of force.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

FLOW,

:lol:

I'm sorry that was funny. :)

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

Er, that was supposed to be a text to my wife. I hate Research in Motion.

:lol: It made me think how flu shots were mandatory when I was in the army

[Verboten]

Flu shots are mandatory for all health care workers and their families. God damn this socialist dictatorship.

[Balefont]

Ha. I think you give them too much credit.

Especially since you have a lot of mayors cracking down on the protests who hardly fit the profile of the 1%.

Sam Adams being a prime example.

:P

Actually, in all seriousness, there seems to be a vast percentage of people who are not of the 1% but persist in defending the 1%.

[sologdin]

He conveniently ignored the fact that every protest I've seen has a huge ecological and anti war component.

let's not get our unwashed thong panties in a twist, dude. consider my comments to be comradely criticisms between lefties, rather than stupid HAHAHA LUK AT THE DUMM LEFTARS!!!1 that we are getting from the rightwing. i don't want to be misunderstood--i like the fact that the protest exists and generally approve of what they're doing.

but like i said, a vague populism and anti-corporate position isn't very distinctive; recall the naderite position of "anti-corporate but not anti-capitalist," whatever that might mean. neither, in fact, is environmentalism (which is an ancient prerogative of property-owners, when it was called "conservationism") or even anti-war protests (recent anti-war movement is composed of all non-fascist groups, basically). the cocktail of these four items is civilized, supportable, good, &c--but it's nothing particularly arousing. horza's got me right that i'm flanking the occupation from the far left.

i doubt that i was arguing that the occupiers are wrong because no programmatic manifesto has been issued. all i was saying is that i am personally lukewarm. i regard the action as positive--but the action is not an end in itself. all tactics must be adopted to reach an end--which end is typically compelling the state to address some particularized issue, or maybe an abbie hoffman step to draw attention to an issue, or a saul alinsky maneuver to piss off the adversary. if the end here is simply to camp out in public parks and shit all over the place while drumming hippy drums and smoking weed, then the occupiers are no different than the motherfucking rainbow gathering.

all of the above is void if it turns out that the occupation is led by fucking hipsters.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

FLOW,

:lol:

I'm sorry that was funny. :)

If you actually own one of those cursed Blackberries, you wouldn't think so.

Anyway, I was just messing with my wife because they pushed her into getting a flu shot a few weeks ago and she got really sick. She was pissed (she's Sicilian, I might add....) at the hospital for pressuring her into it. I was in today (more FUCKING foot surgery for FLOW, dammit), and wanted to mess with her by telling her they made me get one too....

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Does it really matter where EITHER movement came from? My impression (and please, if I am mistaken, enlighten me) is that both movements, whatever their origins, are not currently [mostly] comprised of paid schills of anyone. Both movements express a deep dissatisfaction with the economic realities facing the United States [and the world, to the extent relevant] right now. I, personally, see both movements as a broader expression of economic dissatisfaction.

No, I agree with you on this. I really don't care either way. I see nothing inherently wrong with having leadership or organization. But someone attempted to attack the legitimacy of the tea parties as being "astroturfed", in contrast with the allegedly more organic and spontaneous OWS, so I wanted to point out that on that score, there wasn't much room to pick and choose between them.

The tea party movement got more organized as time went on, and it doesn't look as grassroots now as it did two and a half years ago. But then, we don't know what the Occupy movement will look like in another two and a half years either.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

IMO, this movement is just a forerunner. The police will shut this down this fall and winter, with varying degrees of success, but if the SF Fed is correct and we're in a recession next year (due to "europe", hah!), we will have a very hot summer, and you will see more pointed goals.

The thing is that the more pointed the goals get, the greater risk you run at alienating people who may have shared the more general bitch that something was just "wrong". There's been people point to some overlap between the tea partiers and OWS people. But an awful lot of people don't like the tea parties (including the vast majority here), objecting to the "no more tax increases/cut spending" mantra. In general, tea partiers want the government less involved in the economy (they hated the bailout, not necessarily "Wall Street" in general), whereas a lot of the OWS don't want less government, but rather redirected government. So I think as the OWS movement gets more pointed/focused, they'll become more effective to some extent, but also aligned more clearly with a leftist agenda. Whether they can sell that agenda to enough people to affect significantly the legislation enacted in this country is an open question.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

So, this coordinated police action by city governments and their police departments has people investigating the possibility of coordination between those entities and FBI/DHS.

In a few days, particularly after tomorrow, I think we will find that this coordinated police action was a really fucking horrible idea.

Heard some quotes on the radio today from protestors, including one guy talking about bombs, and another talking about Molotov cocktails in the windows at Macy's.