OWS- what happens next?

[Paladin of Ice]

I think many people here agree that the tactics chosen by OWS have been enormously successful. We're all talking about the movement, the medias talking about it, politicians are talking about it; they certainly have done a good job of seizing the national narrative, which at this point, is the main thing that they are after.

Yep. The first step to getting your ideas to spread into the mainstream is usually seizing that national narrative and then getting the people to be aware of your ideas.

After getting your ideas/viewpoints out there and enough people willing to agree to it and/or act on it, that's when those ideas and goals have to get at least partially adopted by the mainstream.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

I think many people here agree that the tactics chosen by OWS have been enormously successful. We're all talking about the movement, the medias talking about it, politicians are talking about it; they certainly have done a good job of seizing the national narrative, which at this point, is the main thing that they are after.

ETA:

My point exactly! If they are succeeding in annoying you, they are clearly doing something right! :)

The Hare Krishnas were annoying when they came up to you in the airport. A dog that yaps at 2:00 a.m. is annoying. But in the larger picture, they're also irrelevant.

[Paladin of Ice]

The Hare Krishnas were annoying when they came up to you in the airport. A dog that yaps at 2:00 a.m. is annoying. But in the larger picture, they're also irrelevant.

Wouldn't Civil Rights movement preachers and bus strikes have been nothing but an irrelevant annoyance to the power structure as it existed at the time?

But with time, perseverance, and gaining sympathy due to the overreaching of their opponents...

[awesome possum]

Do you really think these protesters are a legitimate threat to the "status quo"? Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of the status quo either. But these protesters aren't scary. They'e annoying.

The "status quo" likely was a lot more worried about this a couple of months ago, before all the good will was blown by people crapping in parks and annoying other citizens. The protesters have given the status quo a win. They just don't know it.

Here is where I would say you just don't get it, but it's been glaringly obvious for about two months that you don't want to get it.

You know who has spent the most time in these threads bringing up crapping in parks or hippies and trying to make the thread a discussion of that? Here's a clue: it's not a single person who supports the OWS movement.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Wouldn't Civil Rights movement preachers and bus strikes have been nothing but an irrelevant annoyance to the power structure as it existed at the time?

Yes, but they managed to massively broaden their base of support, in large part because the manner in which they went about their protests was above reproach. Had they pitched tents in public parks for months, taken shits on public property, let garbage pile up, and generally annoyed their fellow citizens by their tactics, their message likely would not have been as well received. As it was, you had people marching singing hyms, etc.

Right now, OWS is going on two months. From where I'm sitting, you'd be hard-pressed to claim objectively that the movement has grown signficantly since those first few weeks. It is still limited to a few hundred, and in some cases, just a few dozen, people camping out in various public spaces.

But with time, perseverance, and gaining sympathy due to the overreaching of their opponents...

Keep telling yourself that. But again, yesterday (or was it the day before?) was the big crackdown, and the outpouring of outrage and sympathy from the general populace has been underwhelming to say the least.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

: lol : I really can't take your criticism seriously, because it doesn't matter what their numbers are: you will continue to claim that they are merely annoying, despite the overwhelming police response.

And no matter how small those numbers remain, you'll continue to argue that it is wildly successful.

And you measure how much the movement has grown not by numbers of people in the streets, but by how many "Facebook Likes" it gets? Oh, I'm sure those "Facebook Likes" have the 1% pissing in their pants. Really, those are far stronger expressions of support than the hundreds of thousands who marched in the Civil Rights marches, etc.

C'mon Coco, you're usually pretty sharp on this stuff. I mean, I understand your heart is in it, but you've gotta admit that the radical upsurge you want just isn't happening.

[tzanth]

C'mon Coco, you're usually pretty sharp on this stuff. I mean, I understand your heart is in it, but you've gotta admit that the radical upsurge you want just isn't happening.

And this, my friends, is what we call epistemic closure.

[paddington]

Honestly I imagine the powers that be have slighty more pressing concerns. Probably trying to see how tied up they all are in European debt.

Although the City of London posted eviction notices today on our protest outside St Paul's. Going to be interesting, some of it's owned by the Church, some by the City and some of the area no one know who owns it.

Certianly in the UK I suspect the protest is going to get over taken by events in Europe. Overall I'd say theres sympathy for the protest, but not a lot interest.

The fact their not camped outside the Exchange doesn't help much.

[tzanth]

Certianly in the UK I suspect the protest is going to get over taken by events in Europe. Overall I'd say theres sympathy for the protest, but not a lot interest.

Aren't the occupy cause and the debt crisis nearly completely overlapping issues? Looking more broadly, you could easily argue that all of these populist movements in Europe, the Middle East, and North America over the past year have their root cause in the gaping social inequality caused by international wealth finance.

ETA: This is also what makes statements like FLOW's that a "radical upsurge isn't happening" so ridiculous. Unfortunately, things seem quite likely to get a lot worse before they get better. I expect to see a lot more angry people on the streets over the coming year.

[TerraPrime]

root cause in the gaping social inequality caused by international wealth finance.

Stop talking crazy!!

[paddington]

Aren't the occupy cause and the debt crisis nearly completely overlapping issues? Looking more broadly, you could easily argue that all of these populist movements in Europe, the Middle East, and North America over the past year have their root cause in the gaping social inequality caused by international wealth finance.

Pretty much, but the arguements in Europe are better news. So the media are concentrating there. We are also probably going to have more dramtic social unrest in Europe in the next few months. Also I imagine the public sector strikes on the 30th are going to be huge. The occupy thing has not really taken off too much here. It may yet. However protest and the such are pretty routine in London.

[Caliban2]

have their root cause in the gaping social inequality caused by international wealth finance.

I think thats a made up concept. Though im in the 99%. I read the 1% have like 10 million dollars and there are like 50 congressmen in the 1%.

[Crazydog7]

Do you really think these protesters are a legitimate threat to the "status quo"? Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of the status quo either. But these protesters aren't scary. They'e annoying.

I typically try to ignore most of what you say but this is at least correct in part. The trend of this movement to do this long repeat chant technique is annoying and was old by the middle of the 2nd day. However I can never tell if you believe the crap you're spouting or just playing devil's advocate.

It wasn't so long ago you were posting links about these people being a threat to public order and private property. I'm still not convinced that you read any link you post before you post it. I don't know how "scared" the 1% is of these protests I would have to say not very but nothing says "hey these dudes are just a few malcontents" like a disproportionally aggressive police response. The only destruction of private property I've seen during this whole series of demonstrations is the fact the destruction of the private property of OWS protesters.

The concept of changing the definition of unlawful assembly is a trend I find disturbing reminds me of the debates over the "Free Speech" Zones from a few years ago.

[awesome possum]

I don't know how "scared" the 1% is of these protests I would have to say not very

Oh, they're plenty scared. Hiring of private security by Wall Street and corporate big wigs has jumped a few dozen percent since OWS started.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

I typically try to ignore most of what you say but this is at least correct in part. The trend of this movement to do this long repeat chant technique is annoying and was old by the middle of the 2nd day. However I can never tell if you believe the crap you're spouting or just playing devil's advocate.

99% of the time, I believe it. Heh. In this case, while there is some extent to which I like making fun of some of the campout shit for its own sake, I also happen to believe it does not help them gain wider public support. And btw, I don't like the chanty shit when it comes from conservatives, either.

It wasn't so long ago you were posting links about these people being a threat to public order and private property.

In a micro sense, that's entirely true. Anarchists who threw bricks through windows in some of the G7 protests were a threat to public order and private property as well. But that doesn't mean they had much hope of actually accomplishing their political goals.

Look, you can argue over the numbers. But the momentum that existed two months ago has not continued on that same trajectory. If the numbers are larger, it's not by much, and there is no sign that this is really getting beyond the core grop of activists and traditional left-wing groups.

I'm still not convinced that you read any link you post before you post it. I don't know how "scared" the 1% is of these protests I would have to say not very but nothing says "hey these dudes are just a few malcontents" like a disproportionally aggressive police response. The only destruction of private property I've seen during this whole series of demonstrations is the fact the destruction of the private property of OWS protesters.

The stated goal of the protesters for today was to shut down business on Wall Street so that people could not work. There was a protester yesterday talking about throwing Molotov cocktails through the windows of Macy's, another talking about having bombs. NYC is one of the world's great cities, and there was no way that the Administration was going to let any group of people prevent other people from going to work. So the cops came out in an overwhelming show of force to ensure that none of that shit happened.

Which I'd say is exactly what should have been done.

The concept of changing the definition of unlawful assembly is a trend I find disturbing reminds me of the debates over the "Free Speech" Zones from a few years ago.

I'm not sure what you're talking about here. Federal courts have never found a right to pitch tents in a permanent occupation of public land as being a protected form of assembly under the First Amendment. That's nothing new.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Oh, they're plenty scared. Hiring of private security by Wall Street and corporate big wigs has jumped a few dozen percent since OWS started.

Yeah, okay, they hire a few more security guards as a precaution. So what? Now, if they'd said "we're going to stop doing "X" because we're scared", you'd have something. But as it is, you don't.

[Mlle. Zabzie]

I think thats a made up concept. Though im in the 99%. I read the 1% have like 10 million dollars and there are like 50 congressmen in the 1%.

I think it depends on how you define 99%. Net worth, probably. Income, I think it scrapes in people making less than $1 million per year. Definitions are so troublesome.

Honestly I imagine the powers that be have slighty more pressing concerns. Probably trying to see how tied up they all are in European debt.

This. I don't know if this is the right or wrong answer, but I doubt the President's morning briefing has the threat to social stability caused by OWS as the #1 item. I doubt it's on there at all, but I could be wrong.

Staging a protest in a city that has one of the most, if not the most, militarized police forces in the world means the odds are against my side. this is the police department that got in trouble for colluding with our international spy agency! Hell, the police DEPLOYED AN LRAD!

haha, I mean, really? a bunch of dirty hippies come out and you have to use the experimental sonic weapons in order to disperse them?

Shit, the fact that there was a protest at all is a testament to how strongly people feel about this. The police response is, again, telling in that it shows how terrified they are of something, anything, changing.

You must have misread what I said. You claim sympathy for the movement is decreasing. This is definitely untrue, and that's a pretty objective measure.

The fact that this is happening at all today is absolutely amazing. It was only a few days ago the police departments of all the major occupied cities got together to abuse their powers and end the movement.

Cocoa - maybe I have the wrong perspective. Totally possible. However, I think when you live on a 25 sq mi island where approx 3 million people live and 11 million people work (I'm doing those numbers by memory), all in extremely close quarters, that has a history of high (violent) crime and terrorism (yeah, I know not a popular sentiment to acknowledge here) aimed against it is justified in having a sophisticated police force capable of various sorts of responses above and beyond what might be necessary somewhere else. Whether the force used against the protestors is necessary or appropriate is a different question from the question of what the appropriate level of police presence in the city should be. You and I will disagree on this, which is fine, but I live here and I WANT the police to be sophisticated. In my mind, only the application of that sophistication should be up for debate.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Aren't the occupy cause and the debt crisis nearly completely overlapping issues?

That strikes me as really interesting. I thought the OWS was just against those people who got wealthy through financial manipulations. I don't see at all how that is the same thing as people being pissed because the governments they elected overspent, and had to borrow money. If they really hate the banks that much, then the very simple solution for them is to not borrow any more money, default on the debt that exists, and they're free of the "debt crisis".

[Crazydog7]

Oh, they're plenty scared. Hiring of private security by Wall Street and corporate big wigs has jumped a few dozen percent since OWS started.

So it turns out they are job creators after all.

[Ser-Arthur-Dayne]

Update from Redditor Aniadrift:

Sorry for gushing, but I feel the need to right now. When the mass evictions started happening, I was filled with a sense of despair. Now that I see this, that despair has been replaced with inspiration. My heart bursts with it. I want you people to know, all of you who have been in the streets fighting, that you have given me hope for the country that I never thought I would have before. That before this movement started, I was one of the apathetic, ready to give up on the system and just try to leave the country as soon as possible. That because of your movement, I am now alive again, ready to fight for my country, ready to change this corrupt system. That because you have done this for me, I know you have done this for millions of others as well. People will tell you that you fight in vain, that you are accomplishing nothing, that you have no direction, that your actions are pointless. But your actions are far from this. You have destroyed the greatest enemy to freedom, and the greatest ally of the ruling class: Apathy. I see these people out in the streets and I know now that this movement cannot be stopped. That this is the climax of a decades-long battle for the soul of humanity itself. Cynics will laugh at me for saying this, and the loyalists will call me a dirty hippie and a criminal and all the other things they have grown fond of calling us. But these people do not matter. To history, they will be irrelevant. To history, there is only you. Ignore the loyalists, ignore the cynics, keep fighting. Shut them down. Shut the entire god damn system down. No one can stop this. I love you all.