Fishy lines in the ADWD epilogue

[DurararaFTW]

1. At the moment Randyll Tarly seems to be the best battle commander

Why? He has the best army, I don't remember him winning any major battles. Robb, Blackfish, Ned and Robert have all done a LOT with a lot less.

[the Scorpion Knight]

Why?

he won the ONLY major victory in robert rebellion

I think he'll betray Mace in a matter that hurts mace ,the iron throne AND the Faith

[jon rr stark]

I dont think he's done anything to prove being a good battle commander, other than the fact that he's still alive. A fact which, may be attributed to the lack of battles he's fought.

He nearly stopped roberts rebellion with just the Tyrell van, He commanded the flank in stannis's defeat at KL, he cleaned out the remenant northern army (admittedely they were set up by bolton) he restores law and order to the riverlands around duskensdale. He is feared and respected by his captains. Also with Mace shown as an ineffectual battle commander, his mother would make sure the No2 in the army is the real deal.

yes he has not had many battles, but the action he has been in is significant and he is seen as the force behind the reachs army

[The Great Cornholio!]

He nearly stopped roberts rebellion with just the Tyrell van, He commanded the flank in stannis's defeat at KL, he cleaned out the remenant northern army (admittedely they were set up by bolton) he restores law and order to the riverlands around duskensdale. He is feared and respected by his captains. Also with Mace shown as an ineffectual battle commander, his mother would make sure the No2 in the army is the real deal.

yes he has not had many battles, but the action he has been in is significant and he is seen as the force behind the reachs army

Nearly stopped is not stopping. Blah blah blah.

All I hear is just some somewhat good stuff he's done.

[jon rr stark]

Nearly stopped is not stopping. Blah blah blah.

All I hear is just some somewhat good stuff he's done.

The point I think was that at Ashford (i think) with just the tyrell van he ground roberts rebellion to a halt and if robert hadn't got awat before the main army arrived he would have been finished. It was this exchange which almost lead connington capturing him. Ok it was a draw with similar forces but Robert was certainly a successful battle veteran by then, so the implication was that tarly was equally as good and if allowed to pursue robert might have finished him. http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Randyll_Tarly the wiki shows some notably achievments. The last line ' Kevan Lannister thought that Tarly is more dangerous than Mace Tyrell.' and Kevan is a shrewd judge hence Varys had to get rid of him.

[DurararaFTW]

Jon Connington NEARLY got Robert too.

He got exiled because it was seen as a horrible failure that he didn't succeed. Tarly is lucky he wasn't the Hand at the time.And i don't know that Ashford is such a crucial position that it was the ONLY major victory of that entire war, I know that he and Mace were parked outside Storm's End for a whole year afterwards though.

[Darius23]

First time poster, so go easy on me :P.

Nearly stopped is not stopping. Blah blah blah.

All I hear is just some somewhat good stuff he's done.

1. In a world where even the most best commanders endure failures, it seems a little narrow minded to write off a commander because simply because they don't have a 100% success rate. Sure, nearly stopping isn't stopping - but nearly stopping is pretty formidable when your opponent is Robert Baratheon.

2. In Westeros, being able to consistently achieve small victories is not something most commanders can claim. You seem to write him off because he did not manage to achieve victories the way that a commander like Robb did (who by the way, has the tactical advantage of being a warg), but small victories are still victories. And in Westeros, those that are competent soldiers are not usually the greatest politicians (Robb Stark, Ned Stark, and Robert Baratheon are all great examples of this). Tarly is competent in both respects, and in my opinion that makes him a very significant dark horse at this stage in the game.

Jon Connington NEARLY got Robert too.

He got exiled because it was seen as a horrible failure that he didn't succeed. Tarly is lucky he wasn't the Hand at the time.And i don't know that Ashford is such a crucial position that it was the ONLY major victory of that entire war, I know that he and Mace were parked outside Storm's End for a whole year afterwards though.

I don't really think that is a fair statement to make because if Tarly WAS the hand at the time, wouldn't he have had significant more resources at his avail? For all we know, he could have succeeded if provisioned with the resources that Connington had.

[cybroleach]

1. Three or four times in rapid succession, Randyll Tarly inserts lines dismissing Connington, Aegon, and the sellsword company as "adventurers" or pretenders. As if trying to draw attention away from them, or such was my feeling when reading it.

Is this not Randyl Tarly's MO find me a quote where he's not dismissive?

I have a hard time seeing this betrayal Tarly is supposed to be planning. By my reckoning they're a weak house that has rose to prominence under Randyl who owes this to Mace giving him commands before other higher ranking Reach Lords or kin, maneuvering to have him at his side in the council. If not for Mace, Randyl would be pretty low on the Reach pecking order with Mace he's his strong right hand.

[Michael Jon Snow]

Is this not Randyl Tarly's MO find me a quote where he's not dismissive?

I have a hard time seeing this betrayal Tarly is supposed to be planning. By my reckoning they're a weak house that has rose to prominence under Randyl who owes this to Mace giving him commands before other higher ranking Reach Lords or kin, maneuvering to have him at his side in the council. If not for Mace, Randyl would be pretty low on the Reach pecking order with Mace he's his strong right hand.

You are right CL, there hasn't been anything Randyl Tarly has done that indicates he is going to betray the Tyrells. The idea that he might betray his liege is pieced together from a bunch of other information.

1. JonCon tells Tyrion that Aegon has"friends" in the reach. If not Tarly, then who? I think that it is an attempt to figure out who is the Targ loyalist among the flowers that drives much of the speculation.

2. Tarly's attitude toward Sam would suggest that he would prefer to follow a king that is more of a fighter. This might suggest that Tarly would chose Aegon + JonCon over Tommen + Mace. It is a stretch, but not an unreasonable one.

3. Given that Mace took credit for Randyl's accomplishments during the Robellion, it is reasonable to think that Randyl might not be entirely pleased with his liege. He might be thrilled with his station, and he might not be. Really no proof either way.

When you put the above together, Tarly as an Aegon supporter is not a huge leap of faith. While Randyl hasn't done anything overly that would suggest he is disloyal, he is certainly intelligent enough to hide his true intentions either way.

I kinda like the idea. I hope Tarly switches to Aegon's side. But at this point, it is conjecture either way.

[Candor]

Is this not Randyl Tarly's MO find me a quote where he's not dismissive?

I have a hard time seeing this betrayal Tarly is supposed to be planning. By my reckoning they're a weak house that has rose to prominence under Randyl who owes this to Mace giving him commands before other higher ranking Reach Lords or kin, maneuvering to have him at his side in the council. If not for Mace, Randyl would be pretty low on the Reach pecking order with Mace he's his strong right hand.

And what better reason to not trust him? The two most likely explanations for such behavior are either A: he is being dismissive for a reason, perhaps betrayal being that reason. B: He is overconfident, which if I were his liege lord lady, I would dislike on the principle that he might pull something stupid with my resources. Keep that guy on a leash.

[Drunkenspeton]

Tarlys a good commander but in affc Kevan states he'd be a poor hand for peace time.

We know from Sam and Brienne what sort of man he is. Cold, hard and mean.

Good soldiers often make piss poor politicians.

Tywin was a very intelligent man but dismissive of foreigners and sellswords. In that context I can easily see Tarly being dismissive.

As to the chair. Mace hinted in affc to Cersei about being hand. He had carpenters make it as soon as Tywin died. Its in keeping with his pompous character.

[NotSoSilentSister]

Wow!

I always despised Tarly as a violent brute, shortsighted enough to feel that talent in his own job is the only measure of people's worth, capable of killing a son for not being like him.

I also overlooked that he could very well be plotting something, being a stupid sadic not stopping him from having feelings about how the things "should" be.

Tarly may very well be following that great Westerosi tradition to choose a king from how he rides and bloody the whole seven kingdoms for that. We see something like that in the "Mistery Knight" for example.

Mace could betray his King and Lord because Aegon rides way better than Tommen and Mace summed up. And Mace is too much in love of his daughter to be manly enough to be allowed to rule.

I do not know - nor I feel it matters - if Tarly is indeed homosexual. If he is, he probably does not recognize it nor to himself and lives a sad, angered life, hating his wife and whatever comes from her. In any case, Tarly despises all and everything that does not seem like to his own ideal of warrior male.

He is quite capable of killing people just because he feels Aegon a more virile ruler than any of the Tyrrell supported candidates.

On a different matter, a metanarrative one, someone pointed out that Randyll will end up having his son as an enemy.

It could be, but I do not agree with the option proposed: Sam is with "the" dragon, so Tarly has to be against Aegon.

• Sam is not supporting "the" dragon: Sam is with the Watch, whatever that could mean.
  
• A "the dragon" does not exist: there are at least two self proclaimed dragons out there.
  
• There is no need for two people to be enemies to stand in opposite camps.
  

In the end: thanks to the opening poster and to everyone who posted here. I wasn't so clear with myself on why I so disliked Randyll Tarly until now!

Wouldn't it be delicious if Randyl Tarly finally followed his homophobic heart's desire to ditch the insufficiently manly Tyrells in favor of succesful warrior Aegon and his golden company only to get hit on by JC?

I agree that Tarly seems like exactly that kind of idiot who would choose a King based on who looks most badass on horseback.

And he can probably fuck things up for the Tyrells for a while.

But he'll be backing the wrong Targ.

Because Dany is apparently fated to repeat the dance of dragons, and since she actually has dragons.... Sam is primed to take Dany's side, I'd assume Maester Aemon's dying words left an impression.

That's going to be an interesting family reunion....

Calling it now: Tarly is toast.

BTW, it's hilarious how Catelyn gets shit for not being sufficiently affectionate with Jon - her husband's bastard, a constant reminder of Ned's betrayal and a potential threat to the birthright of her own children, see Ramsay Snow - while physically and emotionally abusive "Chains? I'll give you chains!" Tarly, who threatens his own son with murder, is "not such a bad parent", I mean, he had legitimate dynastic concerns and stuff and the murder threats, well he did not really mean it anyway. (Dynastic concerns? Well Cat couldn't have any, not in the face of a cuddly cute baby, that's unnatural. For a woman. All the dynastic concerns melt away in the face of cuteness, it is known, that's the estrogen, it's evolution or something. And not traumatizing your kids is clearly a mother's job, you can't fault the dad. It all makes perfect sense.)

[Ser Leftwich]

Snip

2. Mace Tyrell had a chair ready for himself the day Kevan granted him the Handship. The chair was said to be an extravagance, shaped like a big Hand (oh clever). How did he have it made so fast, unless he was sure he had the "promotion" in the bag?

Discuss.

My initial reaction was that he had it made when Renly was still in the running, on the slow trek up the Roseroad. Not sure if there is anything in the books about this, but Mace would be a natural choice for Renly to make as Hand. (Not a good choice in my opinion, but a natural choice.)

[Victor227]

My initial reaction was that he had it made when Renly was still in the running, on the slow trek up the Roseroad. Not sure if there is anything in the books about this, but Mace would be a natural choice for Renly to make as Hand. (Not a good choice in my opinion, but a natural choice.)

Eh, for peacetime, Mace wouldn't be such an awful Hand. It's not like he's running the Reach into the ground economically, and he's got clever people around him that have a ton of good ideas when he bothers to listen to them (which is surprisingly often).

That aside, the move to bind his house to a pro-Dragon fief may have implications, or it may just be a power grab. Likewise with his dismissal of JC and the Golden Company as a minor nuissance not worth getting upset about. There's a few reasons why he'd do that. He may not actually think they're a threat. He may be deflecting a potential move of one of the Tyrell forces from King's Landing, or he may be helping to serve Aegon.

He undoubtably doesn't think much of Mace, and he's portrayed by Kevan as a man who's loyal to his duty first (hence the Hand idea to bind him away from the Tyrells). If he still sees himself as a loyalist, his duty to Aegon may take precedence over Mace, and what's more, it'll give him the opportunity to advance his house in ways he couldn't under him.

After all, as Littlefinger says, men will do things for their sons and grandsons that they won't do for themselves. I'm sure we'll be seeing a lot more of that too.

[the Scorpion Knight]

Eh, for peacetime, Mace wouldn't be such an awful Hand. It's not like he's running the Reach into the ground economically, and he's got clever people around him that have a ton of good ideas when he bothers to listen to them (which is surprisingly often).

The clever people are only of able of damage control. he pushed willas in in a turney when he wasn't ready and the lad should consider himself lucky to be alive

[Im no Ser]

2 Randyll Tarly points:

1) The Iron Born respect him as a warrior. I don't see them just respecting his southron reputation. It's likely that he had key commands in the campaign against Balon Greyjoy.

After all, as Littlefinger says, men will do things for their sons and grandsons that they won't do for themselves. I'm sure we'll be seeing a lot more of that too.

2) He's setting his son Dickon up to be defacto lord of Maidenpool. While in control of the town he is arranging Dickon's wedding to the heiress of House Mooton.

[thewingedwolf]

I happen to think it goes deeper than that. I think this ties in to what Loras Tyrrell found on Dragonstone. This might sound carezy but what if the "injury" suffred by Loras Tyrrell as just an excuse to research and discover that Cersei's children are the product of incest. If it were discovered, then it would make it would free Marg Tyrrell to marry someone else . . . someone like Aegon perhaps. The Tyrrells would love nothing more than to have Marg queen (again) and to stick it to the Dornish and their wedding pact with the Targaryens.

[scurvy]

Tarly wouldn't have betrothed Dickon to Moonton's daughter without something else being involved. He considers Lord Mooton a weakling. But, Lord Moonton's brother Myles had been Rhaegar's squire and was killed by Robert at the Battle of the Bells. This ties in the Connington connection to the Moontons. Tarly having dealt Robert the only loss of his Rebellion makes him a high choice by Jon Connington to lead Aegon's cause in the South and Tarly could see this as an opportunity to unseat his overlord and become Warden of the South.

Both the Moontons and Tarlys were among the last houses to surrender to Robert.

It would seem to me, Tarly's capture of Lord Moonton and taking of Maidenpool was a bit of a ruse to get the two together to plot for Aegon and Jon Connington, not unlike the ruse of a wedding tournament to bring together Black Dragon supporters during the second Blackfyre rebellion.

Let me also add that I think part of the reason Tarly didn't want Samwell to be a Maester is that the Maesters killed the dragons and he, being a Targaryen supporter, likes dragons.

[scurvy]

I dont think he's done anything to prove being a good battle commander, other than the fact that he's still alive. A fact which, may be attributed to the lack of battles he's fought.

Let's see: He defeated Robert in the field- only time that's happened.

He captured Renly's provisions when Renly was dead and his army in chaos- and killed part of the host that was joining Stannis.

He joined with Tywin and was part of the defeat of Stannis on the Blackwater.

He defeated the Northern Foot at Duskendale and crushed them completely when the Mountain cut off their retreat. Then, he captured Maidenpool.

I'd say it's hard to deny how great he is as a warrior and battle commander.

[NotSoSilentSister]

Let me also add that I think part of the reason Tarly didn't want Samwell to be a Maester is that the Maesters killed the dragons and he, being a Targaryen supporter, likes dragons.

Na, he's just anti-intellectual and gets off on Sam's misery.

When Sam came to him with the Citadel-plan, Randyl couldn't even know that dragons would ever be an issue again. For all he knew, they were extinct. So there were no pragmatic reasons for the Maester-hate. If he's just holding a grudge out of principle, that's obviously stupid and hypocritical, because you can bet that Mr. Greatest Soldier of the Realm does not coordinate his campaigns without the help of Maesters and their ravens.

A smart man, who was truly concerned about the possibility of dragons returning and getting killed by the Maesters yet again, would welcome - nay, encourage! - his son's choice to join the Citadel. Easier to prevent anti-dragon Citadel plots when you've got someone on the inside....

But Randyl Tarly's intelligence is very limited to specific domains. He's a bit of a one-trick pony, good for campaigns and nothing else.