Fishy lines in the ADWD epilogue

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Y'all are obsessed with Tarly but he is at best a minor player. The intrestin stuff is Varys and Illryio.

[Bajaz]

Maybe Tarly is minor player but he is strong figure.

[jon rr stark]

I feel like the ADWD was a wealth of information if the reader was paying attention. That aside, I ran into some fishy lines (in my opinion) and wanted to hear what everyone else took them as. It's possible there's a reasonable explanation that i have missed.

1. Three or four times in rapid succession, Randyll Tarly inserts lines dismissing Connington, Aegon, and the sellsword company as "adventurers" or pretenders. As if trying to draw attention away from them, or such was my feeling when reading it.

2. Mace Tyrell had a chair ready for himself the day Kevan granted him the Handship. The chair was said to be an extravagance, shaped like a big Hand (oh clever). How did he have it made so fast, unless he was sure he had the "promotion" in the bag?

Discuss.

1. At the moment Randyll Tarly seems to be the best battle commander and hardest b*****d in westeros. He is effectively in command of the biggest best equiped army in westeros. Unless Connington does some deal with him, which I think is a possibility, he would see a sellsword company as easy prey.

2. Kevan is organised and wise enough to have tapped up Mace before announcing him as hand. Alternatively Mace suggested it to Kevan and given their importance Kevan would have little choice but to make him hand.

Or he could just be an avid collector of chairs and had this one to hand.

[mediterraneo]

Wow!

I always despised Tarly as a violent brute, shortsighted enough to feel that talent in his own job is the only measure of people's worth, capable of killing a son for not being like him.

I also overlooked that he could very well be plotting something, being a stupid sadic not stopping him from having feelings about how the things "should" be.

Tarly may very well be following that great Westerosi tradition to choose a king from how he rides and bloody the whole seven kingdoms for that. We see something like that in the "Mistery Knight" for example.

Mace could betray his King and Lord because Aegon rides way better than Tommen and Mace summed up. And Mace is too much in love of his daughter to be manly enough to be allowed to rule.

I do not know - nor I feel it matters - if Tarly is indeed homosexual. If he is, he probably does not recognize it nor to himself and lives a sad, angered life, hating his wife and whatever comes from her. In any case, Tarly despises all and everything that does not seem like to his own ideal of warrior male.

He is quite capable of killing people just because he feels Aegon a more virile ruler than any of the Tyrrell supported candidates.

On a different matter, a metanarrative one, someone pointed out that Randyll will end up having his son as an enemy.

It could be, but I do not agree with the option proposed: Sam is with "the" dragon, so Tarly has to be against Aegon.

• Sam is not supporting "the" dragon: Sam is with the Watch, whatever that could mean.
  
• A "the dragon" does not exist: there are at least two self proclaimed dragons out there.
  
• There is no need for two people to be enemies to stand in opposite camps.
  

In the end: thanks to the opening poster and to everyone who posted here. I wasn't so clear with myself on why I so disliked Randyll Tarly until now!

[Silmarien]

I feel like the ADWD was a wealth of information if the reader was paying attention. That aside, I ran into some fishy lines (in my opinion) and wanted to hear what everyone else took them as. It's possible there's a reasonable explanation that i have missed.

1. Three or four times in rapid succession, Randyll Tarly inserts lines dismissing Connington, Aegon, and the sellsword company as "adventurers" or pretenders. As if trying to draw attention away from them, or such was my feeling when reading it.

2. Mace Tyrell had a chair ready for himself the day Kevan granted him the Handship. The chair was said to be an extravagance, shaped like a big Hand (oh clever). How did he have it made so fast, unless he was sure he had the "promotion" in the bag?

Discuss.

Cool catch with number 1. I think you're onto something. "Friends in the Reach", indeed.

But Tywin had already promised Mace Tyrell the position of Hand (didn't he? while Tywin would've been Regent and Lord Protector). Cersei rudely turned him down outside the sept after Tywin's wake, causing a scene in AFFC.

So he had probably already had it made, or it was in the process of being made, when Kevan stepped in and asked him to take the position. That's my IMHO. Mace Tyrell is just an arrogant puff fish. His mother is far more interesting.

[Lord Varys]

I already cleared the chair thing up. Mace was already Renly's Hand. Time enough to have that stupid chair made.

[Silmarien]

I already cleared the chair thing up. Mace was already Renly's Hand. Time enough to have that stupid chair made.

Oops, sorry. Should've read the whole thread. :blush:

[The Great Cornholio!]

As I mentioned in another thread, what if Illyrio is anticipating the fall of Pentos to the Tattered Prince, and NEEDS to flee to Westeros? And wants a nice, cushy job as part of that bargain?

Or maybe it's not just specifically the Tattered Prince. What if V+I know they've made powerful enemies, who will eventually come back to haunt them?

So...they know they have to get out of Essos, just not when. Illyrio is the one set up already with a huge mansion and more than enough gold to protect himself for awhile.

Varys goes onto Westeros ahead of Illyrio and hatches his little plan at the first opportunity he sees - the Aegon baby switch. Either it just so happens that Illyrio has a baby with Valyrian features that is about the right age to pass as Aegon. Or, Aegon is really Rhaegar's son, and this ploy is a desperate attempt for both of them to raise the next monarch, and have enough influence for them both to remain in Westeros in total safety for the rest of their lives (as long as they succeed in placing him on the throne).

Varys feeds Aerys' madness and manipulates the situation in KL so that the Targaryens fall (except for baby Aegon, if he's real). Varys obviously knows Tywin Lannister's reputation, so his advice to NOT open the gates makes sense (Varys would fear Tywin would have him executed, but lucky for him, Robert is forgiving, and pardons him).

The two remaining Targaryens (Viserys and Daenerys) are set up as targets for Robert to focus upon while their "Aegon" is raised in secret.

When "Aegon" comes of age and takes the throne, Illyrio has a safe and cushy ticket out of Pentos, and a job as Master of Coin. But it's the SAFETY he's most concerned about - remember, what good is money if you are killed by your enemies (there are old sellswords and bold sellswords, but no old, bold sellswords...)???

ETA: Sorry if this is the wrong thread for my theory, or if I'm off topic. Please ignore, if I am!

First off. His training has nothing to do with personal decisions he might make. Aegon seems rather head strong. I could easily see him making a Robb Stark type mistake.

Second off. Illryio has an offly elaborate plan when he could easily hop on a ship and buy a mansion somewhere.

[Fire Eater]

Ser Laswell Peake said they still had friends in the Reach, or former Blackfyre supporters. It's been put out there that Tarly may be one of those friends. I recall in the First Blackfyre Rebellion that one reason men followed Daemon Blackfyre was because of his martial prowess, unlike his half-brother, Daeron II, who was a scholar not a warrior. The motto of House Tarly is "First in Battle"; so they could have a tradition as soldiers. If Tarly's forebears were anything like him, I wouldn't be surprised if they were Blackfyre supporters. The men of the Golden Company sound like Tarly's kind of men: disciplined warriors.

[irishtemper]

First off. His training has nothing to do with personal decisions he might make. Aegon seems rather head strong. I could easily see him making a Robb Stark type mistake.

Second off. Illryio has an offly elaborate plan when he could easily hop on a ship and buy a mansion somewhere.

I don't know about that, I think it's different because it's like Ned being in all his councils and battles as opposed to Catelyn only sounding like a mother in his councils...I think he won't be able to make a Robb mistake until Jon Connington dies of greyscale/battle

[The Cocky Wolf]

The Tyrells are for sure major political players they really do want more power. The Tyrells have become a lot more active in going on's in Kings Landing. Ever since they declared for Renly they have had more of a role, and having Meagery as Queen and having multiple family members on the small council and other important offices can only help them in the end. I think Randyll dismissing Connington is just a generalized feeling that some of the lords of westeros have towards Conningtion and Co., that they think they arent really much of a threat. This mindset might be some of these lords downfall in the end.

[LadyoftheNorth72]

Well you're not supposed to. He's gallant and rushes into the fray is the only thing we know about him, and he's Aegon Targaryen until proven otherwise. Tyrion, your namesake, believes he's real.

I am not at all convinced that Tyrion believes Aegon is real. I think he recognized who the people on the boat believed he was, by sussing out Griff's true identity and putting it together from there. But that does not necessarily mean he believes Aegon is the real deal. Certainly for Tyrion he is very convenient ...a way to start seeing Cersei & Co sweat, and intel to make himself useful to Dany. Tyrion is now the only person alive in a position to give Dany all the goods on all the players she may come up against, which will probably make him invaluable to her, much as she may despise his name or personality or personal history.

[LadyoftheNorth72]

Also, try as I might, I just can't get on board with liking Tarly. Anyone who would threaten to gut his son like a butchered deer just does not win a lot of points with me.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Also, try as I might, I just can't get on board with liking Tarly. Anyone who would threaten to gut his son like a butchered deer just does not win a lot of points with me.

You must consider the times. A weak heir could mean the ruin of your entire house. We don't know if he would have actually killed Sam, we can only assume.

That being said, I think people like him for what he is and not necessarily who he is. Tarly is the finest soldier in the realm and the type of man you need to win/hold a crown.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

I am not at all convinced that Tyrion believes Aegon is real. I think he recognized who the people on the boat believed he was, by sussing out Griff's true identity and putting it together from there. But that does not necessarily mean he believes Aegon is the real deal. Certainly for Tyrion he is very convenient ...a way to start seeing Cersei & Co sweat, and intel to make himself useful to Dany. Tyrion is now the only person alive in a position to give Dany all the goods on all the players she may come up against, which will probably make him invaluable to her, much as she may despise his name or personality or personal history.

I think you analysis is correct. Tyrion is far from convinced, but he is more than willing to go along as it will get him Casterly Rock. the West and his sweet revenge.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I am not at all convinced that Tyrion believes Aegon is real. I think he recognized who the people on the boat believed he was, by sussing out Griff's true identity and putting it together from there. But that does not necessarily mean he believes Aegon is the real deal. Certainly for Tyrion he is very convenient ...a way to start seeing Cersei & Co sweat, and intel to make himself useful to Dany. Tyrion is now the only person alive in a position to give Dany all the goods on all the players she may come up against, which will probably make him invaluable to her, much as she may despise his name or personality or personal history.

I agree with this. Tyrion figured out who he was "meant" to be, and even went so far as to humor him (i.e. refer to Dany as his aunt). Tyrion exploited the boy's desire to see action by convincing him to more or less ditch Dany for the time being and go ahead and hit Westeros. But that shouldn't suggest that Tyrion thinks he's actually Aegon.

As for Tarly, try as I might, and despite having many good reasons to, I just can't dislike the guy. I tend to think that his threat to Sam was mostly empty — he fully expected him to take the black — but even if it wasn't, he had good dynastic reasons to displace his heir. Cruel and immoral, yes, but it fits with that society. He's also one of the few truly competent men in King's Landing and I get the impression that his tolerance for bullshit is pretty low.

[LuisDantas]

2. Mace Tyrell had a chair ready for himself the day Kevan granted him the Handship. The chair was said to be an extravagance, shaped like a big Hand (oh clever). How did he have it made so fast, unless he was sure he had the "promotion" in the bag?

I'm not sure of how it fits exactly, but as of the second Cersei POV (Chapter 7 of AFFC) he was indeed certain that he would be made Hand. Or so he insisted to tell Cersei, at least.

[LuisDantas]

As for Tarly, try as I might, and despite having many good reasons to, I just can't dislike the guy. I tend to think that his threat to Sam was mostly empty — he fully expected him to take the black — but even if it wasn't, he had good dynastic reasons to displace his heir. Cruel and immoral, yes, but it fits with that society. He's also one of the few truly competent men in King's Landing and I get the impression that his tolerance for bullshit is pretty low.

I'm still at Chapter 7 of AFFC and have precious little to go on for building an opinion on Lord Randyll Tarly other than "he is a competent military commander that doesn't go out of his way to get the credit" and "he is also a less-than-acommodating father that wasn't nice to Samwell".

However, I don't hold that against him. It may well be that I will if I learn more about Randyll, but not yet. By any reasonable predictions, Samwell is ill-fitted for the rule of first son and future Lord of Horn Hill. Randyll would be doing Sam no favors in sparing him for such a life. Maybe he should have directed Sam towards Oldtown instead of the Wall, but by Westerosi standards he is just not that bad a parent, and I can take no issue with the complaints proper; Sam would make a terrible Lord Tarly, and a miserable, unhappy one as well.

Come to think of it, I wonder what his mother Melessa Florent is like. She has been remarkably absent from even Sam's thoughts, and I can't help but feel that she failed to give Sam the emotional support that he needed. Even today, such support is much more a motherly task than a fatherly one.

[Lord Calway]

I think it's not a coincidence that Tarly is brought into the picture after Tywin dies.

They have much in common. And they will probably share a similar fate.

[The Great Cornholio!]

1. At the moment Randyll Tarly seems to be the best battle commander and hardest b*****d in westeros. He is effectively in command of the biggest best equiped army in westeros. Unless Connington does some deal with him, which I think is a possibility, he would see a sellsword company as easy prey.

2. Kevan is organised and wise enough to have tapped up Mace before announcing him as hand. Alternatively Mace suggested it to Kevan and given their importance Kevan would have little choice but to make him hand.

Or he could just be an avid collector of chairs and had this one to hand.

I dont think he's done anything to prove being a good battle commander, other than the fact that he's still alive. A fact which, may be attributed to the lack of battles he's fought.