The Official Appreciation Thread for Sansa, Queen in the North v. 3

[Candor]

As for the Ironborn, I have a few shameful things to admit.

1. Try as I might, I cannot make myself dislike Victarion! There is every reason to -- wallowing in self-pity after he was "forced" to beat his wife to death, burninating virgins, overall idiocy. But I can't quit him.

2. And I can't stand Asha! I just can't stand her.

3. But the worst is that I am starting to like the Damphair.

Please somebody get me help! I am in need of a serious intervention.

SHAME UPON YOUR HOUSE!

ETA:

1. "

!" - :blushing:

2. I think I liked her because I needed some Ironborn to like to not die of angst over having to read their chapters, and she was hte most likely candidate.

3. Well a lot of people hate Stannis, but I like him. I guess we all have to have our "guilty pleasure" character. :devil:

Just you wait though, I would not be surprised if I end up liking the Ironborn come next book. I didn't like Stannis until he went to the wall, but now on my re-read I'm like Stannis is da KING :commie:

[Raksha the Demon]

Sansa is in an interesting position in that she's got her foot in three very big doors, depending on the vulnerability of various kinfolk:

1. Sansa becomes Lady Stark of Winterfell if Rickon and Bran remain lost (providing her marriage to Tyrion is annulled). If either brother is found, she can become Regent and heir until the young lord marries and sires children.

2. Sansa becomes Lady of the Vale. She can only get it through marriage; though; but the question is to which heir? I would love to see Sansa as the Falcon Queen; but I don't know if she would be as happy, the Eyrie is not somewhere she has felt comfortable; she seems to yearn for the North now.

3. Sansa has a strong claim to Riverrun. The last Tully lord, her uncle Edmure, surrendered lordship to save his people. and is a Lannister captive along with his Frey wife and unborn child. We don't know if the child will survive. It could be that Tully loyalists might prefer Catelyn's daughter to inherit instead of a man with a Frey wife. And the Blackfish lives!

I could see Sansa allowing herself and Rickon to be used to rally the retaking of the North from the Boltons - a pretty Stark daughter, her little brother and his direwolf - what could be more inspiring to Stark loyalists...

Write, George, write!!!!

[Zar Lannister]

Asha is one of those charcaters that doesn't fall middle of the road.

As for Damphair... Why exactly you like him? Because DH, Moqorro and Patchface are just creepy.

[Candor]

Please somebody get me help! I am in need of a serious intervention.

Please sit down, littlespider, we have something we want to talk to you about. This......is an intervention.

[littlespider]

As for Damphair... Why exactly you like him? Because DH, Moqorro and Patchface are just creepy.

For some perverse reason, I like reading about religious ascetics. I really like it. I also, uh, sort of like reading penitential theology. I am not remotely religious myself, though. So the religious side of Damphair's perspective was interesting that way. I was also pretty interested in the conversion side of him, the contrast between the guy who could piss so much he would put out a fire, now serving as a kind of high priest.

Please sit down, littlespider, we have something we want to talk to you about. This......is an intervention.

What?!? Seriously, I don't have a problem. It's NOT A PROBLEM!!! Like, it's not like I'm interested in the Shavepate or the Tattered Prince or anything.

:crying:

I... I... I think I need help.

[voodooqueen126]

I think its awesome that Sansa is the only character to get a third appreciation thread -- because she is a great character who is poised to do something awesome in the next book.

She loves to read, she is a better reader than her brothers, and she reads romance novels. :lol: A detail that I didn't find very realistic for a supposedly medieval era young lady, but nonetheless hilarious.

I have said before that Sansa's lack of a proper Medieval Education bothers me.

[headtrip_honey]

But this isn't a proper medieval world...

(null)

[Grail King]

Obviously with her brothers dead, she has the claim. I think the North is as good a place as any for a woman to take over. Sansa is a Stark, which counts for a lot around there. The North Remembers, and the North likes their Starks. If they can have her, I think they would. They'd want to get rid of her marriage, but who doesn't honestly? If the bannermen believed Bran and Rickon dead, and they got ahold of a living Sansa, they'd put her forth as their liege lady, if not QITN. At this point in time, it'd be infinitely more palatable to some lords to have Sansa rather than "Arya" who is married into the Boltons. Sansa is the eldest girl so she would knock fake-rya down a peg, and by extension, the Bolton's being in charge. It would be important for ambitious lords to have control of the Sansa (yes, THE Sansa lol).

The problem is, the more ambitious and better positioned northern lords, ahem, Manderly, know they have a trail on at least Rickon. No one has any idea what happened to / where Bran may be, if they even think he's alive. Winter Has Come, and if Theon didn't kill Bran, something else could have easily done the job. Manderly might want to get guardianship over Sansa if he knew, but as a backup to Rickon. Not coming before Rickon in the succession.

Sansa's claim depends on who her allies and guardians are, and the status of her siblings.

But we have one other fly in the ointment and this could change everything - Jeyne Westerling I think she's with the BF and she may well be carrying Robbs child, and if she is, how is it proven?

I'll give a crackpot thought.

Dannaery's dragons can sense if someone has targ blood, who's to say that the Direwolves can't do the same thing so Jeyne is produced claims she has Robb's heir there is an attempt on her life in front of Stark supporters and one or all of the Direwolves rush to protect Jeyne this is taken as a sign and the North has another rally point.

Any how just a thought.

[littlespider]

I have said before that Sansa's lack of a proper Medieval Education bothers me.

And what is a "proper medieval education"? There is no such thing, unless you're referring to standards set up by early universities: the trivium and quadrivium. Prior to early universities and cathedral schools, one was educated in a monastery, or by priests/monks in the household if one was super rich.

[Grail King]

I have said before that Sansa's lack of a proper Medieval Education bothers me.

Isn't this just loosely based on medieval history as a back drop, education in this world is done by Maesters and Septas, which the Stark house uses and all their children have access to.

[Candor]

For some perverse reason, I like reading about religious ascetics. I really like it. I also, uh, sort of like reading penitential theology. I am not remotely religious myself, though. So the religious side of Damphair's perspective was interesting that way. I was also pretty interested in the conversion side of him, the contrast between the guy who could piss so much he would put out a fire, now serving as a kind of high priest.

What?!? Seriously, I don't have a problem. It's NOT A PROBLEM!!! Like, it's not like I'm interested in the Shavepate or the Tattered Prince or anything.

:crying:

I... I... I think I need help.

I am interested in some of the religions in here, but the Damphair could not get me started on his.

YES YOU DO! Shut up and sit down, kid, you have a lot to fix. I'm thinking your penance is ten Bugger-thats and one Bugger-all prayers. Are we clear? Good, child. May the Sandor sit in justice upon you, and may the Sansa have mercy on your soul.

:bowdown:

[voodooqueen126]

And what is a "proper medieval education"? There is no such thing, unless you're referring to standards set up by early universities: the trivium and quadrivium. Prior to early universities and cathedral schools, one was educated in a monastery, or by priests/monks in the household if one was super rich.

Not the Trivium and quadrivium-that was for priests etc.

but I mean an intensely religious education that saw sex as evil.

I am also curious as to why Cersei didn't receive the same education.

Apparently this sort of education was designed to keep women chaste and celibate before marriage and prevent them from straying afterwards.

http://www.amazon.com/Sex-Kings-Adultery-Rivalry-Revenge/dp/B000GH2YQ0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1325059857&sr=8-1

Apparently either Catherine of Braganza or Catherine of Aragon was accompanied by nuns who refused to sleep on any bed that had previously occupied by a man.

[Zar Lannister]

I am also curious as to why Cersei didn't receive the same education.

Apparently this sort of education was designed to keep women chaste and celibate before marriage and prevent them from straying afterwards.

Summoned me, Voodooqueen? :grin:

Well, Cersei's case is peculiar. It's beyond her to understand why she should be any different from men or should have been raised differently from her twin, and thus continues to constantly defy the standard.

[Zmeischa]

Not the Trivium and quadrivium-that was for priests etc.

but I mean an intensely religious education that saw sex as evil.

I am also curious as to why Cersei didn't receive the same education.

Apparently this sort of education was designed to keep women chaste and celibate before marriage and prevent them from straying afterwards.

http://www.amazon.co...25059857&sr=8-1

Apparently either Catherine of Braganza or Catherine of Aragon was accompanied by nuns who refused to sleep on any bed that had previously occupied by a man.

I think the War of the Five Kings loosely corresponds with High Middle Ages, and both Catherines you mentioned lived several centuries after. Before the AFfC I didn't have the impression that people in Westeros regard sex as evil - their wedding rituals are too much suggestive for that. And the songs Sansa listens to (and sings) often tell about adultery, which was typical for the courtoise literature. Maidenhead is greatly valued, indeed, but I doubt that people who set such score on the girl's first period are really so sure about the evils of sex :D.

[Zmeischa]

ETA: one more question. Any thoughts on your impressions of women holding power in the North? They're certainly not Dorne in that they follow standard primogeniture inheritance practices. And it's rumored that the Umbers practice the charming "lord's right" during weddings (though hopefully this is just a rumor). OTOH, we have the Mormont women. Who are awesome.

Hard to say. Mormont women are awesome, and lady Dustin rules over her lands just fine. On the other hand, Donella Hornwood was not considered as a ruler, but rather as a commodity that goes with her lands. It depends on the woman, I guess.

On the whole, I guess, a woman who wants to rule something in Westeros needs either a husband or a Mormont personality, otherwise she will be constantly threatened.

[littlespider]

Not the Trivium and quadrivium-that was for priests etc.

but I mean an intensely religious education that saw sex as evil.

I am also curious as to why Cersei didn't receive the same education.

Apparently this sort of education was designed to keep women chaste and celibate before marriage and prevent them from straying afterwards.

http://www.amazon.co...25059857&sr=8-1

Apparently either Catherine of Braganza or Catherine of Aragon was accompanied by nuns who refused to sleep on any bed that had previously occupied by a man.

Catherine of Aragon isn't a medieval woman. And, there is no standard education for medieval women, even aristocrats. Many of them are very well educated, yes, but there's nothing like a prescribed set of texts, aside from lots of gospel readings, the psalms, more psalms, and yet more psalms, and other religious texts that were either long-held classics (Boethius' Consolation of Philosophy, Aug's Confessons, et al.) or popular contemporary religious texts. There's also lots of evidence that women read chivalric romances and other types of secular literature, if they were wealthy enough to have access to books.

But a lot of this also depended on a woman's sensibilities. So someone like Birgitta of Sweden, for example, both had access to an extraordinary number of texts and experts (clerks), and the intellectual interest in reading them. Wealthy women who could afford it had fabulously illuminated psalters made for them.

In terms of sex, the Judeo-Christian juggernaut that sees sex as shameful and sinful is just that, Judeo-Christian. Westeros isn't, though GRRM has incorporated some of its concepts of gender into the books: women as more connected to their bodies/hearts rather than their minds, aggressive and sexually active women as sinful, the annoying tendency to either slut-shame women or talk endlessly about their hymens. But I think the reason we see this is because Martin's picked up these traditional concepts of gender and incorporated them without really thinking about how historically and culturally influenced they are. Westeros does not harbor the same attitudes towards sex that the medieval Church held.

Sansa's pretty well educated: she knows how to read, she enjoys reading, she knows a lot of the popular songs and stories, and she's very well-versed in the doctrines of the Seven. Getting her to this point was Septa Mordaine's job.

Hard to say. Mormont women are awesome, and lady Dustin rules over her lands just fine. On the other hand, Donella Hornwood was not considered as a ruler, but rather as a commodity that goes with her lands. It depends on the woman, I guess.

On the whole, I guess, a woman who wants to rule something in Westeros needs either a husband or a Mormont personality, otherwise she will be constantly threatened.

This makes sense to me, that it depends on the force of the personality of the woman in question.

YES YOU DO! Shut up and sit down, kid, you have a lot to fix. I'm thinking your penance is ten Bugger-thats and one Bugger-all prayers. Are we clear? Good, child. May the Sandor sit in justice upon you, and may the Sansa have mercy on your soul.

:bowdown:

Okay but, since we're operating under the edicts of the Ecclesia Sandori, I can haz booze plz as part of my penance?

[headtrip_honey]

Catherine of Aragon isn't a medieval woman. And, there is no standard education for medieval women, even aristocrats. Many of them are very well educated, yes, but there's nothing like a prescribed set of texts, aside from lots of gospel readings, the psalms, more psalms, and yet more psalms, and other religious texts that were either long-held classics (Boethius' Consolation of Philosophy, Aug's Confessons, et al.) or popular contemporary religious texts. There's also lots of evidence that women read chivalric romances and other types of secular literature, if they were wealthy enough to have access to books.

But a lot of this also depended on a woman's sensibilities. So someone like Birgitta of Sweden, for example, both had access to an extraordinary number of texts and experts (clerks), and the intellectual interest in reading them. Wealthy women who could afford it had fabulously illuminated psalters made for them.

In terms of sex, the Judeo-Christian juggernaut that sees sex as shameful and sinful is just that, Judeo-Christian. Westeros isn't, though GRRM has incorporated some of its concepts of gender into the books: women as more connected to their bodies/hearts rather than their minds, aggressive and sexually active women as sinful, the annoying tendency to either slut-shame women or talk endlessly about their hymens. But I think the reason we see this is because Martin's picked up these traditional concepts of gender and incorporated them without really thinking about how historically and culturally influenced they are. Westeros does not harbor the same attitudes towards sex that the medieval Church held.

Sansa's pretty well educated: she knows how to read, she enjoys reading, she knows a lot of the popular songs and stories, and she's very well-versed in the doctrines of the Seven. Getting her to this point was Septa Mordaine's job.

Thank you!

:bowdown:

[1234567]

Going a little into crackpottery again. On another thread they were mentioning that Tyrion maybe a Targ and linked a theory about Duncan the Small, who was known as the Prince of Dragonflies. I haven't read the Dunk and Egg stories, but it said in the thread that

he was called the Prince of Dragonflies because he was small and he was disinherited from the line of succession due to marrying the common born Jenny of Oldstones.

Now in the TV series, Sansa has her clothing covered in Dragonflies. I wonder if this will relate to her future in the story. Again this goes back to possible marriage options.

a) She is disinherited by her family for marrying Tyrion. Which is similar to the spoiler above.

B) It could tie into a possible marriage with Aegon, as he is a Targ Prince. Also with his increasing impetuous I can possibly foresee a situation where Aegon doesn't marry who he is expected to and decides to marry her instead.

c) Well, I can also think of her marrying a certain Clegane else who would be considered to low born for her.

[Lord Calway]

I'm still bothered about Jeyne Westerling. I fear somehow she will come back to threaten the Stark's claim over Winterfell.

[Zar Lannister]

I'm still bothered about Jeyne Westerling. I fear somehow she will come back to threaten the Stark's claim over Winterfell.

Hard that anybody from the North will follow JW's lead, though... with other Starks around.