And the Iron Thrones goes to...

[Chris High]

LOL, his brother openly declared war against him and stole his bannermen which were Stannis by right of marriage to the House Florent.

Renly had it coming.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

LOL, his brother openly declared war against him and stole his bannermen which were Stannis by right of marriage to the House Florent.

Renly had it coming.

Renly was granted SE and all of its rights and incomes by Robert. It was not Renly's fault that Robert passed him over, if Stannis had issue, it was with Robert. Stannis' marriage to House Florent is irrelevant to ruling the Stormlands. Renly's right derived from Robert who had the power and authority to name whatever successor he chose. He chose Renly.

Renly declared open war against Joffery and the Lannisters. He tried to make peace with Stannis and give SE. I agree that Stannis had the better claim in truth, but instead of fighting on the battlefield he chose to use the dark arts to murder his brother in his tent.

[Queen Elsa]

Renly declared open war against Joffery and the Lannisters. He tried to make peace with Stannis and give SE. I agree that Stannis had the better claim in truth, but instead of fighting on the battlefield he chose to use the dark arts to murder his brother in his tent.

...and many are saying he's not guilty of kinslaying. It's crystal clear to me.

[Yakman]

#1 - i do not believe we are going to get to see the end of the political chaos resulting from the death of Robert Baratheon and the subsequent War of the Five Kings. So, who knows?

#2 - STANNIS UBER ALLES!

#3 - By the time Dany and the Golden Company and Dorne and Littlefinger get done in the South, there isn't going to be anyone from there with sufficient stature to rise to the top... that leaves only the guy with the Lightbringer in the North and Littlefinger in the South, who is going to wake up with his throat slit open.

[cup_of_tea]

I have no idea if this will transpire but I'd like to see Dany win the throne. I would like her to do so through a mix of ruthless ambition and clever merciful diplomacy, only to be betrayed and murdered Caesar style, at the end, by a faction of people closest to her. Perhaps Tyrion, Mormont as the leading two. I don't suspect anything will be particularly wrapped up at the end, except to determine the fates of the characters, the broader picture will be left in the air. Perhaps ending with the threat of future war. After all history never wraps up nicely, and GRRM seems to have a certain ironic and fatalistic world view, and not a happy one.

[Knight errant]

I know it would be cliche, but if Jon does not end up on the iron throne I will be sorely disappointed. It will feel like the 20+ years it took to bring this series to a conclusion would be wasted. Who really wants Stannis, Aegon Mopatis, or Little Finger ruling the Seven Kingdoms?

Well...Me.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Well...Me.

To each his own...I guess.

[Bold Barry Whitebeard]

...and many are saying he's not guilty of kinslaying. It's crystal clear to me.

Well, for starters there's the question of whether he knew the shadow baby was going to kill Renly. It's not clear that he did, according to the text, in fact most of the evidence in the text says that he did not. If one of his followers decided that the best course of action was to assassinate Renly, and did it without Stannis' knowledge, that doesn't make him a kinslayer.

Second, is it still considered kinslaying if someone else does the deed?

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Well, for starters there's the question of whether he knew the shadow baby was going to kill Renly. It's not clear that he did, according to the text, in fact most of the evidence in the text says that he did not. If one of his followers decided that the best course of action was to assassinate Renly, and did it without Stannis' knowledge, that doesn't make him a kinslayer.

Second, is it still considered kinslaying if someone else does the deed?

You have to look at intent. What was going to happen the next morning? The hosts of Renly and Stannis were going to do battle. If one of Stannis' bannerman had killed Renly, it would have been the same thing. Stannis brought about an environment that would have facilitated his brother's death.

Would Mel have acted if Stannis did not want his brothers death? Stannis was perfectly willing to kill his brother for his army. Would Stannis not have lamented and felt guilty about his brothers death if he was not in fact guilty? Stannis is not the man you think he is. He is no more deserving of the throne than Joffrey.

[paradoarify]

I dont like this idea.

Too symbolic.

I want things to be more realistic rather that symbolistic stuff that would be to fairytale-ish.

Well I'm inclined to believe Aegon Blackfyre wins the throne.

Henry Tewdyr, a descendant of a distant formerly legitimized bastard line eventually takes the throne and wins the War of The Roses. Also, I believe that Aegon is a Blackfyre and not a Targ.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Well I'm inclined to believe Aegon Blackfyre wins the throne.

Henry Tewdyr, a descendant of a distant formerly legitimized bastard line eventually takes the throne and wins the War of The Roses. Also, I believe that Aegon is a Blackfyre and not a Targ.

I agree that Aegon Mopatis is in all probability not a Targaryen. Whether is a Blackfyre is still up for debate. I know GRRM is a student of history and is following many parallels of the War of the Roses, but he is not unoriginal. I agree that Aegon will sit the throne by the end of TWOW, but his will not stay there. There are too many other powerful story arcs that will engulf him in the end. What if Jon (Snow) is really named after Jon Connington?

[Tini]

Well...Me.

Me, too.

Jon should be dead after what happened to him at the end of ADWD.

Maybe we will see him again as one of the undead - revived by his unyielding desire to save the realm from the White Walkers. And after the final victory, he'll choose to pass on.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Me, too.

Jon should be dead after what happened to him at the end of ADWD.

Maybe we will see him again as one of the undead - revived by his unyielding desire to save the realm from the White Walkers. And after the final victory, he'll choose to pass on.

A more likely scenario is that Stannis will complete his decent into darkness and emerge as the new "Night's King." Jon (The true prince that was promised) will be healed by Melisandre and go on to slay Stannis the Menace.

[teej6]

There is a notion in political philosophy that establishes a different between the justice of obeying the laws, and the justice in the law itself. If a certain law prevents you from doing the right thing, technically you would be right in ignoring such law and seeking justice through different means. In certain ways, that applies to the three cases you mentioned: Jon, Jaime, Daenerys. They were all going against what was expected of them in order to do what they believed was the right thing. I understand that deciding what is right is really subjective, but if no one was guided by that notion, we would all simply blindly obey laws that were created under very different circumstances from those we face today. Laws get old too. And if we blindly follow them, no social change is possible, no adjustment to new situations that the legislators couldn't have foreseen.

Anyway, I still think there is a difference in the three cases. Jaime knew he was going against the law, his vows, his duty as a kingsguard, but Aerys was planning on exploding a whole city and all its inhabitants. Was he that wrong? And I don'tt know if he really believed back then that people would thank him for breaking his vows or if that arised from his anger at how everyone rejected him later, but the funny thing is, he was around the same age as Jon and Daenerys when that happened. So, anyway, let's go with the "knew what I was doing was wrong but wanted to be thanked for it" possibility.

Daenerys feels she is above the law, no matter where she is, since she's a Targaryen,, their last heir, and as arrogant as some of her predecessors. So, she things what she did was right and wanted to be thanked for it (or, rather, relished being thanked for it).

Jon, finally, knew what he did was wrong, took full responsibility of his actions and didn't force any NW man to follow him and become a traitor alongside him. Considering the first chapter he appears in AGoT he witnessed what happened to NW traitors, what he did was go in a mysterious suicide mission. So, he knew what he was doing was wrong, in the sense as against the law, thought it was the right thing to do, and certainly expected no one would thank him for that.

And that's the difference in the three cases.

An amazing response.

[Knight errant]

You have to look at intent. What was going to happen the next morning? The hosts of Renly and Stannis were going to do battle. If one of Stannis' bannerman had killed Renly, it would have been the same thing. Stannis brought about an environment that would have facilitated his brother's death.

Would Mel have acted if Stannis did not want his brothers death? Stannis was perfectly willing to kill his brother for his army. Would Stannis not have lamented and felt guilty about his brothers death if he was not in fact guilty? Stannis is not the man you think he is. He is no more deserving of the throne than Joffrey.

But Renly was happily planning on killing him, first. Stannis was in the right and he still made Renly a good offer. More than could be said in return. He clearly wasn't aware what would happen at first - but regretted it in his own way, he realized.

Of course he would have to kill him, Renly was planning on killing him! To say that isn't an acceptable motive is ridiculous. He is waaaaay more deserving of the Throne than pretty much every other character.

[Knight errant]

Me, too.

Jon should be dead after what happened to him at the end of ADWD.

Maybe we will see him again as one of the undead - revived by his unyielding desire to save the realm from the White Walkers. And after the final victory, he'll choose to pass on.

I think he will come back, I just don't want him sat on the throne at the end, it's a shitty ending same with Dany. I'm reading because I want to be surprised not because I want to see harry Potter and his auntie mcInstant-win-nuke-dragon-card just sweep in and win as predicted 5 books ago.

Stannis the Mannis. I thought GRRM himself said it wasn't a fairytale, that'd be an awful fairy tale ending...

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

But Renly was happily planning on killing him, first. Stannis was in the right and he still made Renly a good offer. More than could be said in return. He clearly wasn't aware what would happen at first - but regretted it in his own way, he realized.

Of course he would have to kill him, Renly was planning on killing him! To say that isn't an acceptable motive is ridiculous. He is waaaaay more deserving of the Throne than pretty much every other character.

It was Stannis who besieged Storm's End (Renly's castle). It was Stannis who refused Renly's offer of Storm's End. Like it or not, Stannis was passed over by Robert. I have no doubt Robert would have named Renly his heir if he knew about Cersei and Jaime. It was Stannis who left Renly with no recourse but to do battle.

Renly could have simply bypassed Stannis and marched to KL, but it would have left Stannis free to plot and scheme against him.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

I think he will come back, I just don't want him sat on the throne at the end, it's a shitty ending same with Dany. I'm reading because I want to be surprised not because I want to see harry Potter and his auntie mcInstant-win-nuke-dragon-card just sweep in and win as predicted 5 books ago.

Stannis the Mannis. I thought GRRM himself said it wasn't a fairytale, that'd be an awful fairy tale ending...

Just because an ending is cliche, does not make it a bad ending (see the Lord of the Ring). All that is required is the journey to get there, and that journey continues to be filled with surprises and unhappy endings for many major characters.

[cup_of_tea]

Just because an ending is cliche, does not make it a bad ending (see the Lord of the Ring). All that is required is the journey to get there, and that journey continues to be filled with surprises and unhappy endings for many major characters.

well back when Lord of the Rings was written such endings weren't cliched. Lame maybe, but not cliched.

Also given all thats happened thus far, I'd say it's pretty much impossible to have a happy ending for anyone. As long as its not predictable, it should be worthwhile.

[aryagonnakill]

It was Stannis who besieged Storm's End (Renly's castle). It was Stannis who refused Renly's offer of Storm's End. Like it or not, Stannis was passed over by Robert. I have no doubt Robert would have named Renly his heir if he knew about Cersei and Jaime. It was Stannis who left Renly with no recourse but to do battle.

Renly could have simply bypassed Stannis and marched to KL, but it would have left Stannis free to plot and scheme against him.

On a technical level, the heir to the Iron thrown was always lord of Dragonstone. Robert naming Stannis lord of Dragonstone could be seen as making him heir to the Iron throne. While Renly was lord of Storms End, that does not give him rights to being Roberts heir, Stannis the older brother and lord of Dragonstone was still Roberts heir.