Stannis Baratheon becoming a Northman

[Turgid furgison]

I

wonder if bran ever thinks about the time theon saved his life. I dont recall him doing so in clash. I would think it may come into play with theon.

[Vandalism]

He is very Northman-like, because of his rigid, stubborn views about absolute justice and also his honour. He's like a colder, less sociable version of Ned Stark.

About your observation regarding the cold, well I agree with it but I think it's a bit vague. The author does not necessarily need to describe the character flinching at the cold to show his dislike for it. Any how, after living such a dreary life at Dragonstone I doubt Stannis flinches at anything.

As for Theon, well I do not think he will die. Along with Stannis himself, Theon is my favourite character and I do not think GRRM would mention the importance of Theon to dethroning Euron just to have him beheaded.

[Turgid furgison]

New lord of Dreadfort, why not?

Stannis' problem is that he can hardly change god's for the third time, and we don't know big crime burning weirwood is. But maybe he can become all for religious tolerance.

luckily the old gods arent the ones with all the rules. I doubt they cae how many other gods you worship. One think they dont like is certainly burning we shall see how stannis is judged for that

[modehead]

I can't buy any theory regarding the future of the North without an appearance by Mr. Reed.

I don't know what role he'll play. But eventually Greywater Watch has to get involved, right?

[Lady of Long Lake]

I can't buy any theory regarding the future of the North without an appearance by Mr. Reed.

I don't know what role he'll play. But eventually Greywater Watch has to get involved, right?

Reed has Robb's will so we have to see him at some point! I think Mr. Martin has said in interviews that we will meet Howland.....some day.

[Celeste Greyjoy]

As for Theon, well I do not think he will die. Along with Stannis himself, Theon is my favourite character and I do not think GRRM would mention the importance of Theon to dethroning Euron just to have him beheaded.

I'm sorry, you actually like Theon as a character? He went from being Robb's best friend to pillaging Winterfell to impress his father. He took Winterfell because he wanted it. He didn't run to Winterfell to secure Bran & Rickon in the face of an Ironborn invasion. He didn't send a raven to Robb to let him know what's going on. Through his incompetence, he gave the Boltons control of Winterfell. And then he was tortured into being Bolton Jr's Reek for a couple of books. And what is his redeeming quality? He killed two innocent boys so that his goddamn incompetence in pillaging & securing Winterfell wasn't known to his Ironborn buddies?

I mean, geez, I'd like to see Theon get redeemed & then die, but at the same time, the idea of anything other than that is so absurd. Theon is for all intents & purposes just as Stannis said in tWoW chapter, a murderous turncloak. He betrayed people who accepted them into their family. Yes, it was to earn the respect of his marauding family, but that doesn't justify the means to get that respect. I'm perfectly okay with Theon being sacrificed to Rh'lor or used as a pawn by Asha for the Seastone Chair. <_<

[Ski the Swift]

I'm sorry, you actually like Theon as a character? He went from being Robb's best friend to pillaging Winterfell to impress his father. He took Winterfell because he wanted it. He didn't run to Winterfell to secure Bran & Rickon in the face of an Ironborn invasion. He didn't send a raven to Robb to let him know what's going on. Through his incompetence, he gave the Boltons control of Winterfell. And then he was tortured into being Bolton Jr's Reek for a couple of books. And what is his redeeming quality? He killed two innocent boys so that his goddamn incompetence in pillaging & securing Winterfell wasn't known to his Ironborn buddies?

I mean, geez, I'd like to see Theon get redeemed & then die, but at the same time, the idea of anything other than that is so absurd. Theon is for all intents & purposes just as Stannis said in tWoW chapter, a murderous turncloak. He betrayed people who accepted them into their family. Yes, it was to earn the respect of his marauding family, but that doesn't justify the means to get that respect. I'm perfectly okay with Theon being sacrificed to Rh'lor or used as a pawn by Asha for the Seastone Chair. <_<

Do you like Jamie or The Hound as characters? They have done the same deeds for themselves but everyone loves them. Mance Rayder is an oathbreaking murderer as well, he flew down from the wall and then starts attacking his past brothers and murdering them. How does that make him any different from Theon? Theon was at least acting in the best interest for his family, it doesn't really matter that his family are a bunch of dicks. People love other characters for acting for their family and they get no troubles from us readers.

[Celeste Greyjoy]

The Hound: Killed an innocent boy based solely on Joffrey's command. Was Joffrey's enforcer for all intents and purposes. We're made to pity him because he was abused when he was younger. Fine. I feel a little bad for the guy but his actions thus far have been utterly shameful.

Jamie Lannister: Killed the Mad King as he was going to burn King's Landing to the ground with wildfire. Didn't take the throne for himself or his family. Committed to the Kingsguard despite loathing Robert Baratheon. Did the right thing for the Seven Kingdoms, and put up with the shit he got for going beyond his honor to do what was RIGHT. Along the way he lost himself and he committed many acts, such as pushing Bran out of a tower. Reprehensible. Unforgivable, but this man is seeking redemption for what he did. He didn't betray anybody. He broke his oath and dealt with the repercussions of it for far too long. Be told something long enough and you'll start to believe it yourself and act accordingly.

Mance Rayder: Was a brother of the Night's Watch, and abandoned it because he felt their ideology was far too strict for his tastes. His character is that of the charismatic leader. I don't like him personally, but I do so the appeal. He's just as bad as Theon. This one has no excuse and has not attempted to redeem himself.

Theon: As I stated above. It's through his incompetence that he's been tortured by Ramsay. He didn't fight off Ramsay. He was fooled by Ramsay and tortured by a bigger bastard than he himself was. I can't pity him for that. No, I don't like reading about people being skinned alive. I'm a fairly normal human being, so I feel bad for that alone, but it's such bullshit to shill that out to us anyways. Theon is the sum total of his character though, and Theon was written to suffer. All of these characters have or had roles to fulfill and they've done so. I don't particularly like any of them. I like Victarion, Asha, Davos, Dany, Eddard Stark, and Tyrion. The rest can burn.

[Lyanna Stark]

Do you like Jamie or The Hound as characters? They have done the same deeds for themselves but everyone loves them. Mance Rayder is an oathbreaking murderer as well, he flew down from the wall and then starts attacking his past brothers and murdering them. How does that make him any different from Theon? Theon was at least acting in the best interest for his family, it doesn't really matter that his family are a bunch of dicks. People love other characters for acting for their family and they get no troubles from us readers.

Well, "oathbreaking murderer", with your definition you could argue that Ned Stark is an oathbreaking murderer as well, since he rebelled against Aerys, his rightful king and killed lots of people on the battlefield.

There's a difference between what Theon did and what people such as Mance Ryder and the Hound did, I think, since it's on different level of "oathbreaking murderer". Mance clearly had his reasons for leaving the Nights Watch and the Hound was royally fed up with the corruption and random brutality of the Lannisters, but what reasons did Theon have, apart from a personal play for power? Neither Mance nor the Hound sacrificed people who were like family to them (unless you want to argue that the Nights Watch was like Mance's family). While Jaime throwing Bran out the window, Bran wasn't part of his family. In fact, Jaime doing that is meant to *protect* his family and doesn't have anything to do with jockeying for power.

As for Theon's destiny, won't it be ironic if after all, he gets the Seastone Chair, but now in a state where he cannot appreciate it as he once could? I hope Asha and Theon manage to work things out with Stannis and/or Jon since otherwise, I can't really see the point of their characters so far (yes, no fan of Victarion, Euron or Damphair here).

The Hound: Killed an innocent boy based solely on Joffrey's command. Was Joffrey's enforcer for all intents and purposes. We're made to pity him because he was abused when he was younger. Fine. I feel a little bad for the guy but his actions thus far have been utterly shameful.

Really? Apart from killing Mycah (which btw was his job and he was ordered to do it, and he can't question the word of the Queen or a Prince as he is only a retainer), what has he done that is so shameful? Topic for another thread probably, but in comparison to men like Stannis, Jaime and Mance, why is the Hound's actions more "shameful"?

[CrypticWeirwood]

The Hound: Killed an innocent boy based solely on Joffrey's command. Was Joffrey's enforcer for all intents and purposes. We're made to pity him because he was abused when he was younger. Fine. I feel a little bad for the guy but his actions thus far have been utterly shameful.

Jamie Lannister: Killed the Mad King as he was going to burn King's Landing to the ground with wildfire. Didn't take the throne for himself or his family. Committed to the Kingsguard despite loathing Robert Baratheon. Did the right thing for the Seven Kingdoms, and put up with the shit he got for going beyond his honor to do what was RIGHT. Along the way he lost himself and he committed many acts, such as pushing Bran out of a tower. Reprehensible. Unforgivable, but this man is seeking redemption for what he did. He didn't betray anybody.

I like most of what you’ve said, but perphaps you forget that Jaime twice betrayed his king whom he was sworn to give his life for. Yes there were conflicting oaths in the case of Aerys, but it was also high treason against Robert for Jaime to plant his own bastards in line for Robert’s throne.

When Ser Lucamore Strong of Jaeharys I’s Kingsguard was discovered to be a trigamist with children on the side, he was gelded by his fellow whitecloaks and sent to the Wall. When Ser Terrence Toyne of Aegon IV’s Kingsguard was found to be having an affair not with the queen herself but “merely” with Aegon’s mistress du soir, he was duly and swiftly executed.

Just what part of “Thou Shalt Not Cuckold Thy King” didn’t you understand, Ser Jaime?

That said, Jaime’s attempted murder of Bran, despicable as it was, was an — ahem, “precipitous” decision brought on by the sudden realization that it was either Bran’s life or his own, his sister’s, and their three children’s, all of which would have been forfeit in a trice had Robert learnt the truth.

So while his rash act against young Bran cannot be forgiven, it can be understood. And since that time, Jaime’s hard journey has been that of the penitent, albeit one of only limited success thus far. He would see no more harm come to Lady Catelyn’s children by his hand; yet another oath he has sworn, and thus far he has made good on it — although he could perhaps make better. Sometimes good is not enough.

Perhaps more importantly, if Jaime One-hand had now his own way in this, he would publicly claim Myrcella and Tommen for his own and retreat with Cersei, his would-be sister-wife, back to Casterly Rock forevermore.

Of course, the Mad Queen will have none of this. If she acquiesced to her penitent brother’s wishes here, she would perforce cede the throne to Stannis, be shorn of all semblance of royal power as queen dowager, incur the hate and humiliation of smallfolk and great alike, and forsake all claim to the Iron Throne for any of her golden children.

That may be now her brother’s dream, but all her own dreams would crumble into ash in her mouth, bitter as death. No, than that would Cersei Lannister fain die first — which, in the fullness of time, shall doubtless be arranged.

Though Jaime has dutifully kept faith with Cersei, she has never perceived any duty to keep faith with him, and has certainly not done so. Being true to his sister is yet another of Ser Jaime’s many conflicting oaths that paralyse his will till at last he again cracks and leaves lives and loves riven in the wake of his tattered oaths.

[Hear Us Roar]

he could have also killed Asha who is a "princess". Not sure it matters since they were Lord's 5 minutes ago. Does declaring yourself king make you one?

[MikeDC]

The Hound: Killed an innocent boy ...

Jamie Lannister:... pushing Bran out of a tower.

Mance Rayder: Was a brother of the Night's Watch, and abandoned it because he felt their ideology was far too strict for his tastes. His character is that of the charismatic leader. I don't like him personally, but I do so the appeal. He's just as bad as Theon. This one has no excuse and has not attempted to redeem himself.

Theon: ...

murdered a couple of kids.

I find it a little odd that Mance Rayder, who rebelled against not being able have a thread of red silk in his cloak, is lumped in with three guys who've willingly murdered or tried to murder children.

[girlfrommonday]

Jamie Lannister: (...) Committed to the Kingsguard despite loathing Robert Baratheon.

haha, because he was such a dutiful man, and his sister had nothing to do with that :lol:

[Lord Damian]

I do not think Mel is legit force for good, if I am right, sooner or later, Stanis will figure this out. That and along with him whitnessing something real in the North, through the trees or whatever might let him see some truth. I think he has gained some respect for most northmen, especially Mormont. He fits in better with them up their anyway.

[QuaitheTheShadow]

This is what I think happened, judging by ramsay's letter:

Stannis lost the battle but escaped. He lost his sword in the process and Ramsay now has it. Theon, Asha, and the Mormot She-Bear escaped with Stannis. Jeyne Poole escaped with the Banker already.

Ramsay has no motive to lie to Jon about Stannis losing the battle. If Stannis didn't lose, why would Ramsay want to drawn more enemies into Winterfell and make it an even harder seige? That doesn't make sense.

Now that Ramsay has Stannis' sword he can claim that he killed him in battle. The only person who could dispute that is Stannis himself - and he probably won't since his army has been smashed.

[Wyman_Manderly]

I think Stannis is going to die. Just a feeling though, partially based on the "no heir" thing and how little importance Shireen got in the tv series

[escargotini]

Mance Rayder: Was a brother of the Night's Watch, and abandoned it because he felt their ideology was far too strict for his tastes. His character is that of the charismatic leader. I don't like him personally, but I do so the appeal. He's just as bad as Theon. This one has no excuse and has not attempted to redeem himself.

So sneaking into Winterfell to rescue "Arya" wasn't an attempt at redemption for Mance?

At some point I think Mel will realize that Stannis was a red god herring. When she asks to see AA but all she is shown is Jon? Can it be spelled out any better for her?

[rmanoj]

Remember, Mance was brought up by the Night's Watch. That life was the only life he knew, and I don't know how much choice they gave him when it came to taking the oath (an oath sworn under duress is of questionable validity even in Westeros, although I suppose that applies to most of the NW). You could see it as a case of a soldier who was indoctrinated from childhood having an epiphany and realising that perhaps this faction isn't that great after all.

Also, I don't see why people are saying Stannis is going to bend the knee to anyone. He found it hard to justify rebelling against Aerys, but in the end decided it was the right thing to do and that Aerys should no longer be King. Why should he care about some other Targaryen claim derived from Aerys after all these years? And remember what Donal Noye said - "he'll break before he bends" (not sure if that's the exact quote).

[Dark Rider]

No. Stannis was born in the light of the Seven and does not keep the Old Gods. He is a southerner and I don't believe he would be embraced as a permanent Lord of the North especially with four Stark children still alive.

[CrypticWeirwood]

No. Stannis was born in the light of the Seven and does not keep the Old Gods. He is a southerner and I don't believe he would be embraced as a permanent Lord of the North especially with four Stark children still alive.

Or five Stark children still alive even, given the hypothetical Stark for forum-convenience named “Ned Robbson”, being Jeyne Westerling’s secret son by Robb.

But then why would Martin have needed Rickon as a spare Stark to continue the male line once Robb was murdered and Bran crippled? Just to muddy the waters? I somewhat doubt it, but maybe.