Why is Jeor Mormont on the Wall?

[PrinceHenryris]

If "Longclaw" really is the ancestral blade of House Mormont, why didn't Jorah take it with him when he fled? He could have sold it for enough cash to keep Lynesse in silks and spices for decades.

I don't know if it's the product of too many re-reads or too much time on these forums, but I don't buy Jeor's story.

[Arkantos]

If "Longclaw" really is the ancestral blade of House Mormont, why didn't Jorah take it with him when he fled? He could have sold it for enough cash to keep Lynesse in silks and spices for decades.

I don't know if it's the product of too many re-reads or too much time on these forums, but I don't buy Jeor's story.

Oh, I don't know, maybe Jorah had a shred on honour?

[Esa1996]

I am much more interested in the reason why Jeor has Longclaw with him. It's supposed to be that big family sword (Valyrian Steel!) yet he says that when Jorah went into exile, he had the decency to leave Longclaw behind. Fine, but why Jeor has the sword? Bringing the sword with him in the Night's Watch meant "stealing" away the family sword forever. Why didn't he give it to his sister Maege ? Afterall, Valyrian steel is pretty rare, it's a family treasure and Tywin Lannister tried and failed on numerous occasion to buy one from poorer houses. I know it's a way to give a valyrian steel blade to Jon, but still.

I read that part just yesterday and IIRC Maege sent the sword to Jeor. Jeor was already in the NW when Jorah escaped and left Lonclaw behind. Maege didn't have use for it so she sent it to Jeor.

[The Mountain That Posts]

Wasn't it somewhat implied that when Jorah brought shame to his family(and fled) that Jeor was too embarrassed, and decided to take the black to partially atone for his son's crime and so that the men of Bear Island could follow Maege, someone they could respect, instead of Jeor? Pretty sure he never flat out said this, but didn't he throw a few hints around? (mainly in AGoT)

[The_Watcher_On_The_Walls]

According to his wiki, he was concerned with the nights watch deteriorating in quality so he took the black and quickly rose through the ranks to become LC. Supposing that's correct, his reasons would include duty, honour and protecting the realm.

[The_Watcher_On_The_Walls]

Oh, I don't know, maybe Jorah had a shred on honour?

This. He wasn't a bad guy selling people into slavery, he just caught poachers on his land and needed the money. Not saying that was particularly honourable but good men do bad shit all the time.

[ForgottenKnight]

It's never mentioned. Would like to know though.

[Mikkel]

This. He wasn't a bad guy selling people into slavery, he just caught poachers on his land and needed the money. Not saying that was particularly honourable but good men do bad shit all the time.

And the poachers needed the food. Jorah is scum, pure and simple. That he did it to please his wife (who was scum, too, just of a different variety) doesn't really make it better.

Yes, I know, he's madly in love with Dany, and we see him mostly from her POV, so he only comes across as somewhat needy and pathetic (aka Jorah Fedora), rather than his true self.

[GallowsKnight]

And the poachers needed the food. Jorah is scum, pure and simple.

Jorah is still scum, even if the poachers were scum too.

We don't know anything about the poachers. Yes they could be starving peasants trying to fill the pot. Or they could be hardened criminals out to make money killing deer, seals, bear on their Lords lands etc for their hides to sell to traders. The sort of rough sort who'd easily kill someone who found them, because it meant the wall or a similarly unpleasant punishment.

Regardless he's still slaver scum (and a rapist).

[Mikkel]

Jorah is still scum, even if the poachers were scum too.

We don't know anything about the poachers. Yes they could be starving peasants trying to fill the pot. Or they could be hardened criminals out to make money killing deer, seals, bear on their Lords lands etc for their hides to sell to traders. The sort of rough sort who'd easily kill someone who found them, because it meant the wall or a similarly unpleasant punishment.

Regardless he's still slaver scum (and a rapist).

True. I have no basis for assuming the poachers were starving peasants. It was intended as a response to "Jorah needed the money" - as if that made it acceptable.

Them being starving peasants is one possibility, but not the only one, I admit. It's just as likely (or perhaps even more so) that the "hardened criminals" scenario is true. But yes, Jorah is a slaver no matter what kind of men the poachers were.

[Tyrion's Third Wife]

Jorah is still scum, even if the poachers were scum too.

We don't know anything about the poachers. Yes they could be starving peasants trying to fill the pot. Or they could be hardened criminals out to make money killing deer, seals, bear on their Lords lands etc for their hides to sell to traders. The sort of rough sort who'd easily kill someone who found them, because it meant the wall or a similarly unpleasant punishment.

Regardless he's still slaver scum (and a rapist).

Whoa whoa ... rapist?

[GallowsKnight]

Whoa whoa ... rapist?

Had sex with a slave in a Tyrion chapter. Slaves can't give consent. Ergo rapist. Same as Tyrion.

No moral relativism. It's shit.

[Tyrion's Third Wife]

Had sex with a slave in a Tyrion chapter. Slaves can't give consent. Ergo rapist. Same as Tyrion.

No moral relativism. It's shit.

You're projecting modern moral standards ... in the context of his world, it is perfectly ok. The slave would have not put up a fight, and would most likely have been very convincing in her pleasure. It certainly was not considered illegal (in Essos, anyway).

There was no violence or agression on his part. I'm guessing it was actually quite an act of desolation and in need of physical comfort.

[GallowsKnight]

You're projecting modern moral standards ... in the context of his world, it is perfectly ok. The slave would have not put up a fight, and would most likely have been very convincing in her pleasure. It certainly was not considered illegal (in Essos, anyway).

There was no violence or agression on his part. I'm guessing it was actually quite an act of desolation and in need of physical comfort.

Yes I am projecting moral modern standards. Because these particular moral standards happen to be right. Slavery, rape, these things all suck. I can't abide whitewashing them with the excuse "it was a different time".

That said slavery is actually illegal in Westeros, hence the thread. His actions (and every patron of the brothel) wouldn't have been legal on Westerosi soil even.

But really I'm so glad Jorah could help his case of the sads, at the expense of perpetuating a system of debasement and abuse. And hey he's such a nice guy he didn't even rough up the girl. She should really be grateful /sarcasm

Edit: Okay that came off a bit confrontational. Basically everyone is free to interpret it how they want. But I don't like Jorah because to me he is a rapist.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I always thought that he was doing the same thing that some Kings from the real world, like Juan Carlos I of Spain for example,have done.He abdicated in order to his heir take the Throne and in Westeros the only way to do that was to join the NW.

[RatCook]

Perhaps Jeor gives Longclaw to Jon because GRRM wished for a plot that entailed Jon wielding a badass Valyrian steel sword. Perhaps GRRM thought that a plausible and nice mechanism for which Jon to acquire a badass Valyrian steel sword, would be for him to have one gifted upon him, by his mentor and predecessor to-be, for saving his life.

[RedShirt47]

Wasn't it somewhat implied that when Jorah brought shame to his family(and fled) that Jeor was too embarrassed, and decided to take the black to partially atone for his son's crime and so that the men of Bear Island could follow Maege, someone they could respect, instead of Jeor? Pretty sure he never flat out said this, but didn't he throw a few hints around? (mainly in AGoT)

I always thought this was the reason, until this thread I didn't even think there was a mystery here.

Interesting, I must read through the thread and see what people think.

[Mikkel]

I always thought this was the reason, until this thread I didn't even think there was a mystery here.

Interesting, I must read through the thread and see what people think.

No, Jorah was a Lord in his own right for a period of time after Jeor joined the watch - I'm not sure how many, somewhere around three to five would be my guess without looking anything up. That's about how long it took Jorah to piss away whatever wealth the Mormonts had, and finally make himself a slaver in an effort to fulfill his wife's expensive tastes.

[RedShirt47]

Yes I am projecting moral modern standards. Because these particular moral standards happen to be right. Slavery, rape, these things all suck. I can't abide whitewashing them with the excuse "it was a different time".

That said slavery is actually illegal in Westeros, hence the thread. His actions (and every patron of the brothel) wouldn't have been legal on Westerosi soil even.

But really I'm so glad Jorah could help his case of the sads, at the expense of perpetuating a system of debasement and abuse. And hey he's such a nice guy he didn't even rough up the girl. She should really be grateful /sarcasm

Edit: Okay that came off a bit confrontational. Basically everyone is free to interpret it how they want. But I don't like Jorah because to me he is a rapist.

Perhaps not the thread to discuss this but these are books and the author's intent needs to be taken into account in such situations. When GRRM had Jorah (or Tyrion) sleep with Pillow Slaves did he imply or hope that we would infer that these men were Rapists?

I don't think so. I think the author's intent is that in this world Pillow Slaves are a normal thing and lonely men will seek comfort in them.

I don't think GRRM expected the reader to apply modern moral sensibilites to these situations or really consider how these action could be viewed in such a light. Mayhap if he thought this could happen he would have replaced the Pillow Slaves with common whores.

[Mikkel]

Perhaps not the thread to discuss this but these are books and the author's intent needs to be taken into account in such situations. When GRRM had Jorah (or Tyrion) sleep with Pillow Slaves did he imply or hope that we would infer that these men were Rapists?

I don't think so. I think the author's intent is that in this world Pillow Slaves are a normal thing and lonely men will seek comfort in them.

I don't think GRRM expected the reader to apply modern moral sensibilites to these situations or really consider how these action could be viewed in such a light. Mayhap if he thought this could happen he would have replaced the Pillow Slaves with common whores.

Or maybe he intended exactly this discussion to take place among those of his readers who care about such things. To say that GRRM accidentally made Tyrion (one of his favorites) a rapist seems... I don't know, too careless. GRRM is a modern writer, writing for a modern audience - we're not reading manuscripts penned in a different time, so I don't think it's correct to say that modern morality or standards don't apply to his writing.