Did Cat treat Jon Snow like a dog - or not?

[Castel]

And was Jon really innocent? He's a chilll guy, even if he is a wrag, turncloak, wildling lover, and an oathbreaker, but he did wish for the death of his family before, he did want to own Winterfell (he would have taken it if Meli didn't start talking about burning his gods). Winterfell belongs to the tullys not the snows.

Are you serious? You know that this is a pretty common thing right? Wishing that you have something, not to mention he felt guilty immediately and didn't tell anyone, so there's no way Cat could know.

And no one is denying that she should look out for her own kids first and foremost. What I'm saying is that pushing your negative emotions on to a kid who did nothing to earn them is stupid, understandable but dumb. Acting on them is despicable.

Not convinced? Well, put aside the sickroom incident and what are we actually told by GRRM? That Cat was emotionally distant to Jon, that she distinguished between him and her children, and that she made certain he knew she would rather he wasn't at WF.

I at least, am not putting aside the sickroom incident because it would be convenient for you, but I have also admitted that she had no obligation to mother him.

[Fragile Bird]

The really interesting thing I've seen in this thread is how much attitude there's been from people I like and read with pleasure towards those of us who don't have thousands of posts after our names. We're here because we love the books, get pleasure from our re-reads, enjoy the HBO series, and want to talk about all of that. And people are trying to present their opinions with due care and consideration, and it disappoints me to see those opinions being dismissed and the posters being told they lack common sense. And are daft. I understand where you're coming from Brashie, you know what I've said about disrespect before.

And I have run out of likes, so please allow me to praise many of the posts that have been made here this morning.

[Castel]

@F&B I ment the Starks in name but Tully in Blood. And Sansa was still alive and Jon passed her in the inheritance. Cat was mean to Jon I won't justify that. Cat did not trust Jon thats a great move as Lady of Winterfell. Cat yelled at Jon when she was looking at

her

dying child and Snow comes and stands there awkwardly, I see where she comes from,

]

Yes, God forbid Jon want to look at his dying brother before getting shipped off to the Wall and not seeing him again for God knows how long if he even lives. How dare he!

[deleted01]

no but we should realise that Cat wasn't 100% wrong for not trusting Jon

@F&B I ment the Starks in name but Tully in Blood. And Sansa was still alive and Jon passed her in the inheritance. Cat was mean to Jon I won't justify that. Cat did not trust Jon thats a great move as Lady of Winterfell. Cat yelled at Jon when she was looking at her dying child and Snow comes and stands there awkwardly, I see where she comes from,

P.S. *gasp* "Your royalty? I had no idea... All of those things I've been saying about cocks and... i shouldn't have M'Lady etc. etc"

Do not call me m'lady!

:rofl:

I see the point of not trusting Jon when it came to her childrens' inheritance, but I don't recall seeing any evidence of Jon actually planning to cut out his half-siblings and inherit Winterfell himself, unlike Ramsay Bolton Snow. He considered taking Winterfell when Stannis offered it to him for more reasons than just "Oh yay, I get to be a lord and piss off Catelyn!", I think. Unfortunately, boys come before girls when it comes down to inheritance (in Westeros), and if Robb wanted to legitimise Jon, then he was perfectly within his rights to do so. I actually found that sweet, that Robb didn't care that Jon wasn't his full brother, that he loved him as much as he did Bran, for example. It seems like only Catelyn had a problem with Jon inheriting - Sansa probably would have too, but I doubt Arya would have been too bothered. Plus I believe Jon thought about only being in charge of Winterfell until Sansa or Arya came of age and returned to Winterfell? I might be wrong though.

As for her shouting at Jon at Brans' bedside, I found that horrible, but I absolutely see that she was lashing out in her grief, and I don't hold that particular scene against her. It was awful for her to transfer all of that onto Jon, for no reason other than he was Neds' bastard. "It should have been you"? Why? Jon didn't push him, I see no reason for her to wish such a thing on anyone. But again, she wasn't in her right mind, her son was lying in a coma, she wasn't sure if he would live or die, or have the same quality of life as before, etc etc, so I can kind of understand her lashing out. Still, though, it's another example of her transferring her grief, pain and the blame onto Jon, for something that wasn't his fault.

[Scafloc]

no but we should realise that Cat wasn't 100% wrong for not trusting Jon

@F&B I ment the Starks in name but Tully in Blood. And Sansa was still alive and Jon passed her in the inheritance. Cat was mean to Jon I won't justify that. Cat did not trust Jon thats a geat move as Lady of Winterfell. Cat yelled at Jon when she was looking at her dying child and Snow comes and stands there awkwardly, I see where she comes from,

P.S. *gasp* "Your royalty? I had no idea... All of those things I've been saying about cocks and... i shouldn't have M'Lady etc. etc"

Right in not trusting Jon??? Where and when?

As I recall Robb was the one who preferred Jon above Sansa...Also Sansa is missing. You assume that Jon would have taken the Winterfell even if Sansa had not been married to Tyrion (which was Robb's reason).

And again Catelyn being right or wrong about somebody does not excuse (or complement) her for her behavior before trust (or distrust) was proven. You probably do not think her evil for trusting Littlefinger

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Are you serious? You know that this is a pretty common thing right? Wishing that you have something, not to mention he felt guilty immediately and didn't tell anyone, so there's no way Cat could know.

And no one is denying that she should look out for her own kids first and foremost. What I'm saying is that pushing your negative emotions on to a kid who did nothing to earn them is stupid, understandable but dumb. Acting on them is despicable.

Despicable? He was raised as her kid! That's fucking despicable. Do you think only Ned has honor? Every time Cat looks at Jon it's a stab in her heart. Every time Jon plays with his brothers/sisters it's an insult to the Tully name. FAMILY DUTY HONOR. Those 3 words sum up everything

]

Yes, God forbid Jon want to look at his dying brother before getting shipped off to the Wall and not seeing him again for God knows how long if he even lives. How dare he!

We read this through Jon's pov, we know how much Jon loves Bran. But pretend your Cat, ASOIAF is not black and white about zombies and burning people alive its most def not going to be black and white about the bastard and stepmother

[Castel]

Despicable? He was raised as

her

kid! That's fucking despicable. Do you think only Ned has honor? Every time Cat looks at Jon it's a stab in her heart. Every time Jon plays with his brothers/sisters it's an insult to the Tully name. FAMILY DUTY HONOR. Those 3 words sum up everything

Again, that's an issue with Ned. I don't go fucking killing people because my daddy was mean to me. Put the blame where it is meant to be. On Ned. It's not despicable to keep your distance, telling a 14 y/o that they should have died for no reason is.

We read this through Jon's pov, we know how much Jon loves Bran. But pretend your Cat, ASOIAF is not black and white about zombies and burning people alive its most def not going to be black and white about the bastard and stepmother

Explain in what universe this is justified. Explain how Cat could possibly have taken umbrage with jon wanting to say goodbye to a child he's known all his life. Saying it's not black and white doesn't cut it. She was purely vindictive, that is despicable.

[deleted01]

Again, that's an issue with Ned. I don't go fucking killing people because my daddy was mean to me. Put the blame where it is meant to be. On Ned. It's not despicable to keep your distance, telling a 14 y/o that they should have died for no reason is.

Explain in what universe this is justified. Explain how Cat could possibly have taken umbrage with jon wanting to say goodbye to a child he's known all his life. Saying it's not black and white doesn't cut it. She was purely vindictive, that is despicable.

Despite me agreeing with you, may I respectfully ask you to calm down? Your posts are coming off a little rude :)

[Gingerly Grumkin]

@F&B

I'm a Snow fan, much more then a Cat fan. I thought it was awsome that Robb looked at Jon like a brother. I know Jon will be a great king. I am not Cat. Cat has no reason to expect greatness from Jon, if history has taught her anything (and she loves history) it's don't trust bastards (blackfyres, ramsay)

@Scafloc

It doesn't matter the reason. In Westeros people die and get disinherited all the time, Cat suspected Jon will try to take Winterfell. He prob will.

And I dont think she is evil for trusting LF, thats fucking insane.

She loved him if not as a man then as a brother. But loved family duty honor more. LF gave his life for that. Cat stopped Stark out of Love. They meet again when Cat's in great distress and LF has all the answers.

ETA. @Castel

Ned is her husband and lord, she can't really yell at him.

I just justified that quote like 5 times.

She hates him, she is spending her time with her dying son. The last thing she wants to see is Jon. She was not in the right mind set, she didn't do anything for Winterfell just sat at brans bed the whole time. Bran's attempted murder X2 was the thing that reawakened her. Insanity is justifiable.

[Scafloc]

Despicable? He was raised as her kid! That's fucking despicable. Do you think only Ned has honor? Every time Cat looks at Jon it's a stab in her heart. Every time Jon plays with his brothers/sisters it's an insult to the Tully name. FAMILY DUTY HONOR. Those 3 words sum up everything

We read this through Jon's pov, we know how much Jon loves Bran. But pretend your Cat, ASOIAF is not black and white about zombies and burning people alive its most def not going to be black and white about the bastard and stepmother

Jon must be evil indeed for being born AND playing with his brothers and sister. A wonder he did not became a Ramsay Snow.

[Scafloc]

@F&B

I'm a Snow fan, much more then a Cat fan. I thought it was awsome that Robb looked at Jon like a brother. I know Jon will be a great king. I am not Cat. Cat has no reason to expect greatness from Jon, if history has taught her anything (and she loves history) it's don't trust bastards (blackfyres, ramsay)

@Scafloc

It doesn't matter the reason. In Westeros people die and get disinherited all the time, Cat suspected Jon will do this. He prob will.

And I dont think she is evil for trusting LF, thats fucking insane.

She loved him if not as a man then as a brother. But loved family duty honor more. LF gave his life for that. Cat stopped Stark out of Love. They meet again when Cat's in great distress and LF has all the answers.

No, I only meant that trust or distrust BEFORE the other person does something does not make you bad or good.

[a free shadow]

There is no support in the text for yours and Onion's interpretation, which makes mormont's more reasonable and less tainted with preconceived notions about the character.

All taints and paints, huh? I would rather refer to the substance. What is in the text is that one day Robb, who clearly had no such thought before, says that Jon can not be a lord of Winterfell even at a game. He calls him a bastard. He says his "lady mother" told him so. Everything else is left for you to figure out. If Robb had not said "lady mother", I would simply think servants. Because it is more like servants to talk about "bastard born". But he did say lady mother. As Robb was the older one, he was raised as a lord. Just Jon being a bastard was not pointed out for him. I do not believe he suddenly started being jelous of Robb and seeked reassurance from Catelyn. So she might have told him. Off-hand, deliberately, who knows? These thoughts flash when you read in a second based on what you know about things and characters. You figure that Catelyn kindly answered curious Robb that Jon is "a bastard". I think you're wrong. Your only "textual evidence" is how you chose to interpret Catelyn. And it only brings you back to the core discussion.

I've tried to be polite and reasoable here.

[Fragile Bird]

Jon must be evil indeed for being born AND playing with his brothers and sister. A wonder he did not became a Ramsay Snow.

:lmao: :lmao:

Ndrew, give it up!

[Queen Cersei I]

Ok, enough of my opinion on the subject. I need to know why you think GRRM put these things in the text if not to convey meaningful information about Cat's feelings towards Jon.

Perhaps they simply found "meaningful information about Cat's feelings towards Jon" that does not correspond with your idea that Cat's feelings for Jon were pure loathing and "mean, petty, and cruel."

[bloodymime]

I would agree that Catelyn accepted the situation as it is for Ned's sake, the sake of their marriage, and to some extent, for the sake of their children. I would only add that as this is true, and pretty much accepted by all, Ned's subsequent absence at Winterfell leaves her the opening to voice "must, cannot, will not" that his presence clearly prevents. In this, she only has a say in the matter if she is expected to abide Jon while half her children and her husband set off for KL for an undetermined period of time. Further, as she is Regent of the North in Ned's absence, would it not make more sense to the "Cat is abusive to Jon" argument to leave him at Winterfell while Ned is gone? Without the restraints of Ned's expectations of her as it relates to Jon---in effect, removing the actual "filter" that keeps everyone in line? This, more so anything else, leaves me feeling that Catelyn knows herself quite well, enough to know that absent of restraint, she would behave in a manner beyond her considerable control, she would do what she has managed to restrain from doing. She has the opportunity, and she demands it be removed, which is also a view into "the real Catelyn," inasmuch as the "it should have been you" incident. Given the opportunity to truly wreak havoc on a child, despite her dislike of bastards, she says no. Some would argue that this in and of itself is the cruelty. I would argue that while it is a cruelty, it is the lesser of cruelties that could happen, those that would have damaged the Stark Family dynamics in a seriously malignant way.

Good thoughts there and I agree it is lesser cruelty for Jon to go away without Ned there as a caring parent figure.

Of course it would be great if Cat could accept Jon completely as part of her family but I don't like seeing how Cat could have been better turns into how Cat should have been better. It's only a one letter difference but they're worlds apart in meaning. We can't necessarily choose how we feel, it's how we choose to act that defines us. I feel Cat did act with restraint when it came to Jon.

I think it's wonderful that there are people that think this is a black and white issue and Cat should have found a way to be better to Jon, it's not like there's enough people in that world or this one feeling children should deserve better. The world would be a seriously better place if more people had that attitude toward children and I'm sure nobody thinks otherwise.

I just literally cannot help grading on a curve though when it comes to this. I can see the position where Cat should have been kinder to Jon but my feelings will always be about how Cat could have been so much harsher to him. Maybe this is just going to come down to the differences people have in their childhoods and what we grew up learning to expect from life.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Jon must be evil indeed for being born AND playing with his brothers and sister. A wonder he did not became a Ramsay Snow.

lol. When did i say Jon is evil?

No, I only meant that trust or distrust BEFORE the other person does something does not make you bad or good.

Look not to be to harsh but fuck the bastards emotions. Cat is looking out for her land, people and family

:lmao: :lmao:

Ndrew, give it up!

never!

ETA.

The question is did Cat treat Jon like a dog. In no way did she ever do that, she treated him like a potential threat to her family. But she never beat him

[Scafloc]

I can see the position where Cat should have been kinder to Jon but my feelings will always be about how Cat could have been so much harsher to him.

I agree with the first part :cool4:

Well Catelyn is not a bad person but like most people she also has a few annoying traits

Edit: in case my understatement was not clear: (I think) she is a good person (with a few bad traits)

[Lyanna Stark]

Yes, I am aware that the sole reason Cat has even found herself in this position is because she's a woman, so in that sense, gender cannot be removed from the discussion, but I dispute the contention that criticising Cat's behaviour with Jon is based on gender biases that believe women should be naturally nurturing and protective. This is not where I'm coming from. I honestly believe and I think the text bears this out, that Cat's treatment of Jon had adverse effects on both of them, and that it was a moral failing on Cat's part to behave in this manner, not as a mother, since I think she was a very good one to her own children, but as a human being.

Needless to say, I agree with mormont on this, but I would also like to add that Cat was always disempowered in this as Ned intimidated her into silence.

In a way, this makes the issue with Jon doubly bad for her as it's not only a huge mark of shame and embarrassment, but also something she is forced to constantly face that she is powerless about. Every day she is faced with how powerless she is in the face of her shame and embarrassment, and this subjugation comes from her being a woman and married to a liege lord she has to obey. Hence she hates what Jon stands for.

I do believe that a lot of people in this thread also have shown that they trend towards thinking Cat should forget and forgive, which are very Christian, altruistic and traditionally feminine virtues. This does not mean I am accusing you personally of being a sexist by the way, far from it, but there has been previously, and there is in this thread, a trend towards expecting Cat to be as Lummel put it "The Virgin Mary of the North".

Cat feels guilty when she thinks of Jon, which seems to indicate she's not happy with how she lashed out at him. Had she really, truly hated him, I can't see why she should feel guilty. I'm sure Cat would not have felt guilty about lashing out like that to someone like, say, Ramsay Snow.

I respect your opinion, but in this case I think our interpretations will have to differ.

[Melifeather]

I hope this stays within your topic, because it has to do with Jon's parentage.

When Meera and Jojen tell Bran the story of the tourney of Harrenhal, we learn that Ned was in love with Ashara Dayne. It becomes his duty to marry Catelyn, because his brother, Brandon is killed. Ashara was so upset by Ned's marriage to Catelyn, that she commits suicide. She left behind an infant son. It seems logical to conclude that her son was Ned's.

We meet Edric Dayne in a Storm of Swords when he squired for Beric Dondarrion. His description is one that he is twelve years old, has pale blond hair and dark blue eyes that appear purple. He claims his mother is Ashara Dayne, but his father is not mentioned. After Ashara's suicide, he is nursed by Wylla at the same time as Jon, making them "milk brothers". If we go strictly by physical appearance, it seems more logical that Edric is Targaryen and Jon is a Stark, but It gets confusing because:

1) Ned has dark hair and grey eyes

2) Ashara has dark hair and violet eyes

3) Lyanna has dark hair with unknown eye color, but probably grey like Ned

4) Rhaegar has silver hair and violet eyes (his two confirmed children, Rhaynes had brown hair (unknown eye color) and Aegon has silver hair and violet eyes)

5) Edric has blond hair and blue eyes so dark as to appear violet

6) Jon has dark brown hair and grey eyes (confirming Stark blood)

7) Edric's father may have had blond hair (his eyes may be from his mother)

8) Wylla has no physical description

I think we have to rely on the parallel found in Jon's involvement with Mance's son being switched with Gilly and Craster's. Gilly is raising Mane's son, which makes me lean more toward Ned having raised a Targaryen. If that is correct, then Edric is indeed Ned's son.

The one detail that gets forgotten is Wylla. If Ashara is Edric's mom, and Lyanna is Jon's mom, wouldn't it make sense that Wylla is Lyanna?

Now back to Catelyn. I think the people that are the most outraged about Catelyn's treatment of Jon are people that do not have enough experiences in their lives that would enable them to sympathize (or would it be empathize) with the situation. You really have to imagine what it would be like to be forced to care for your cheating spouse's love child. Yes, it is unfair to take it out on the child, but it's very human nature. But, I would be willing to surmise that Ned had gotten Ashara pregnant before marrying Catelyn, and that would be more in line with his character.

[mormont]

Yes, I am aware that the sole reason Cat has even found herself in this position is because she's a woman, so in that sense, gender cannot be removed from the discussion, but I dispute the contention that criticising Cat's behaviour with Jon is based on gender biases that believe women should be naturally nurturing and protective.

I don't think I'm making such a contention. I'm saying that it's simply not possible to discuss the issue of whether 'emotional distance' is mistreatment without considering gender: and so, it's not really practical to avoid 'making it a gender issue'.

With all due respect, mormont, I don't see the logic in this. I could just as easily make the case that Cat's not thinking of the boy illustrates that she did indeed hate him and was glad she no longer had to think about him.

You could, but I don't think it would be as good a case. Mind you, I'm not unbiased. ;)

When I say that Cat loathes Jon I'm not trying to paint her as some stereotypical wicked stepmother, gleefully indulging in making Jon's life miserable. No. I think Cat's loathing of Jon is of a very personal and cold nature, it is not something that she has to think over again and again for it to be present with her.

Fair enough, but to me this looks somewhat like adapting the definition of 'loathing' so that the evidence fits the preferred conclusion: ex post facto reasoning. I think most people would define a personal 'loathing' as something more obsessive and intrusive: they'd expect to see frequent bitterness and dwelling on the negative attributes of the loathed person.

To your point about her thinking that he is some mother's child too, I do believe that leaving Winterfell and facing the danger that her family was in, the death of her husband, and the risks her children were facing, gave Cat some well needed perspective on Jon's situation. It allowed her to see him, perhaps for the first time, as someone other than her bane, as someone who probably has a mother that loved him too. I don't, however, see how this means that she didn't hate him personally whilst at Winterfell.

Fair enough. But we don't see much of Jon and Cat while at WF, so it's hard to judge. I agree with whoever it was that said it would be hard to distinguish between a resentment of Jon's presence and personal feelings of animosity to him while he was there: my point is precisely that we can probably best judge the degree of personal loathing or hatred by Cat's reaction once the hated situation is done with.

I would agree that Catelyn accepted the situation as it is for Ned's sake, the sake of their marriage, and to some extent, for the sake of their children. I would only add that as this is true, and pretty much accepted by all, Ned's subsequent absence at Winterfell leaves her the opening to voice "must, cannot, will not" that his presence clearly prevents. In this, she only has a say in the matter if she is expected to abide Jon while half her children and her husband set off for KL for an undetermined period of time. Further, as she is Regent of the North in Ned's absence, would it not make more sense to the "Cat is abusive to Jon" argument to leave him at Winterfell while Ned is gone? Without the restraints of Ned's expectations of her as it relates to Jon---in effect, removing the actual "filter" that keeps everyone in line? This, more so anything else, leaves me feeling that Catelyn knows herself quite well, enough to know that absent of restraint, she would behave in a manner beyond her considerable control, she would do what she has managed to restrain from doing. She has the opportunity, and she demands it be removed, which is also a view into "the real Catelyn," inasmuch as the "it should have been you" incident. Given the opportunity to truly wreak havoc on a child, despite her dislike of bastards, she says no. Some would argue that this in and of itself is the cruelty. I would argue that while it is a cruelty, it is the lesser of cruelties that could happen, those that would have damaged the Stark Family dynamics in a seriously malignant way.

I think Cat's reaction to this is perfectly understandable on the face of it. She was, in effect, being asked to take on a parental role for Jon for the first time. I think she could find this emotionally unbearable and unacceptable without the need to suppose that she feared some sort of loss of control as a result.