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Fragile Bird

[TV Spoilers] Joffrey in Episode 4

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I have no love for Joffrey, but has HBO gone overboard depicting his evilness? Did the brutality of what Joffrey did with the prostitutes sent to him by Tyrion seem over the top to you, or do you think this indeed is how Joffrey would turn out in a few years, given everything we know about him?

Or is there another explanation? Were the prostitutes from a Littlefinger brothel, perhaps, and this would provide a reason for Littlefinger to kill Joffrey, an easy to understand reason for an audience that hasn't read the books? Or is it because the producers have been given a long view advance picture by GRRM and they are giving the readers a very strong hint that indeed, Jaime and Cersei are Targaryens, and this is the madness of King Joffrey? We haven't seen any stories of Lannisters that are this perverse, have we?

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He was not being brutal for brutal's sake. He was sending his uncle a message. Notice he kept saying "my uncle sent you"? Little finger does not give a damn about his prositiutes and would not kill a lord much less a king because of that.

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I have no love for Joffrey, but has HBO gone overboard depicting his evilness? Did the brutality of what Joffrey did with the prostitutes sent to him by Tyrion seem over the top to you, or do you think this indeed is how Joffrey would turn out in a few years, given everything we know about him?

We haven't seen any stories of Lannisters that are this perverse, have we?

Everything Joffrey did was sadistic in the extreme. I don't think it was overboard and showed exactly the kind of thing Joffrey would want to do to pay back Tyrion who he hates passionately for repeatedly humiliating him and schooling him.

They won't be able to show him having Sansa repeatedly beaten for his amusement as it was in the books since the scene with tearing her dress off just played out and that was the point at which he stopped tormenting Sansa. Since they can't show Sansa's abuse it alternatively works to show him forcing abuse on others against their will or because they're being 'commanded' to do it - which is a great way to show how Joffrey was just acting like a sadistic spoiled child with way too much power at his fingertips. Having Trant beat on Sansa isn't nearly as creepy as the private bedroom scene. I thought it was an ok way to convey just how despicable Joffrey really has become without repetitive scenes with Sansa.

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I'm starting to think that Joffrey might be bad person. Plot twist!

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I'm starting to think that Joffrey might be bad person. Plot twist!

And I had such empathy and compassion for him in the books.

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I think they have gone over the top - almost every time we have seen Joffrey since his introduction he has done something to show He's Not a Nice Boy. Arya/Mycah, lying to the King about that, taking Neds head, showing Sansa, etc etc. They've shown us he is an evil sociopath - I don't think we need to keep getting a reminder each time we see him.

They were LF's whores, but no, I don't think there is any special retribution from LF if Joffrey had offed them.

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I think Littlefinger wouldn't care much about two dead whores. It would give him dirt on Joffrey which he could use to manipulate him, which in LF's perspective is probably a fair trade.

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I think Littlefinger wouldn't care much about two dead whores. It would give him dirt on Joffrey which he could use to manipulate him, which in LF's perspective is probably a fair trade.

I guess we now know wht Ros is still around. She probably commits suicide down the road, after watching babies killed and torturing one of her fellow 'girls'. Or she's the one Cersei will end up having whipped. Then she'll send her to Qyburn.

It is interesting that Joffrey doesn't seem to have been aroused by what he had them do, more pleased, like the cat that ate the cream. Torture for torture's sake, being paralled at the same time by Gregor Clegane.

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I remember Joffrey in the book being more comical in some ways that he was evil but funny at the same time. They have made his character too evil, too flat it is something that Michael Madsen once said he learned from watching an interview of James Cagney, "If you are playing a bad guy, you have to find something redeeming about his character, if you are playing a good guy you have to find something dark about his character if not then your performance on film will be flat."

Michael Madsen, has mastered that, so have many other great actors in Hollywood . . I think Jack Gleeson is capable of that but it is something that D and D have botched.

Also, making Stannis seem too power hungry that he will cheat on his wife, slay his brother, do whatever it takes to win the Iron Throne, it is almost like they have perverted Stannis.

Littlefinger telling Catelyn, "The Gods want us to be together" is horrible . . after her husband's death no way in the world would book Littlefinger try that garbage. He would be patient and supportive a shoulder to cry on for the woman he loved.

This TV Littlefinger would get clobbered by book Littlefinger.

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Note to the Mods: somehow you've allowed two threads with really the same topic to run. I didn't want to write anything about whores in the name so as not to spoil, but "Joffrey and the Whores" and this thread are pretty well the same. You may as well shut this one down.

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I think they have gone over the top - almost every time we have seen Joffrey since his introduction he has done something to show He's Not a Nice Boy. Arya/Mycah, lying to the King about that, taking Neds head, showing Sansa, etc etc. They've shown us he is an evil sociopath - I don't think we need to keep getting a reminder each time we see him.

I would like to see something else as well. We got some of it in season one with Sansa and Tyrion but since he became king it's been a little one dimensional.

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I wouldn't call it 'over the top' really, but I would call it unnecessary. It's not 'over the top' as it is something I could see book-Joff do too if he had been three years older and 'given' a pair of whores by the uncle who had just stopped him from beating up his 'pet' Sansa. But it was not necessary to show us how vile he is. If did think that wasn't clear enough, they could have taken the Sansa scene a little further.

On the other hand, it seems they seem to reach a certain T&A quota in each episode, and I'd rather have something like this that actually has something to do with the story and characters, than another whore scene I have no clue what it is there for at all.

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I wouldn't call it 'over the top' really, but I would call it unnecessary. It's not 'over the top' as it is something I could see book-Joff do too if he had been three years older and 'given' a pair of whores by the uncle who had just stopped him from beating up his 'pet' Sansa. But it was not necessary to show us how vile he is. If did think that wasn't clear enough, they could have taken the Sansa scene a little further.

On the other hand, it seems they seem to reach a certain T&A quota in each episode, and I'd rather have something like this that actually has something to do with the story and characters, than another whore scene I have no clue what it is there for at all.

I see you're at post 2, if no one said welcome to Westeros on your first post, let me say it! Post often!

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Joffrey is a sadist in a position of absolute power. It's not over the top IMO, it's realistically what happens when you give a lunatic a license to do whatever insane thoughts fly into his rotten little brain.

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In regards to the TV version, how did Tyrion manage to "stop" Joffrey from beating Sansa? In the book Tyrion threatens to tell Cersei what he is doing and this cows him. But in the show Joffrey has already threatened to kill Cersei... So why would TV Joffrey "let" TV Tyrion stop him from doing what ever he wants? This is a problem created by adding the earlier scene where Joffrey apparently is able to override his mother and has no respect for her wishes or commands.

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I think this scene served the show well. It showed the viewers the sadistic nature of Joffrey and escalated the severity of his deeds, making for some very uncomfortable viewing.

Interesting to see how Ros and Daisy are portayed after this, hopefully not just as sex objects. I'm tiring of the redundant brothel scenes but think that when used correctly, LFs prostitutes could add to his character on the show.

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In regards to the TV version, how did Tyrion manage to "stop" Joffrey from beating Sansa? In the book Tyrion threatens to tell Cersei what he is doing and this cows him. But in the show Joffrey has already threatened to kill Cersei... So why would TV Joffrey "let" TV Tyrion stop him from doing what ever he wants? This is a problem created by adding the earlier scene where Joffrey apparently is able to override his mother and has no respect for her wishes or commands.

You know, his mother is his mother, and he does have Robert's example on how to treat Cersei. I don't know that he's fully convinced Jaime is his father, killing the bastards was his way of just making sure no evidence is around in case it's true.

I think he is still afraid of Tyrion at this point. His bravado will reach a peak in his mocking Tyrion at the wedding. The stupid git doesn't know what's coming down on him. Imagine what he would do to Tyrion if he wasn't murdered at the wedding, a thought that crosses Tyrion's mind as well, as he ponders taking Sansa across the sea.

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I think they could have left the scene at the whipping and him telling Ros to whip the girl harder and people would still hate him, I dont think we needed to see a giant mace or whatever the hell it was. Not because it wouldnt have happened in the books, but because it's just something I would prefer not to watch on tv.

Sometimes this show creates too much of a 'negativity cloud' so instead of me saying "Oh this is so cool, cant wait to see what happens next!" I'm more like "Uggh this is disgusting, why am I still watching this show?"

Yes I read all the books - several times, but reading something depraved, and seeing it on tv is very different. I do happen to think it's a bit too much in the books as well. I skipped over lots of chapters in ADWD because I dont want to read about Theon and him being skinned and having his privates torn off, it's just disgusting and it also puts me in a bad mood if I read it too often. I dont think it really adds to the storyline either in the books or on tv. One of the reasons I stopped reading Terry Goodkind and Sword of Truth series is because every book people are raped, mutilated, gang raped, eviscerated, etc etc. After you read that for days and days it actually makes you start thinking depraved and negative and people notice it.

Just like they say 'you are what you eat', you also 'think what you read' and 'act what you see' to some degree. I'd much prefer seeing sex (which is at least pleasure) on tv or read in books then seeing people in agony and hell. Isnt life full of enough bad? To me it just detracts from the fun of reading or watching a series when it's used more than sparingly. - a pinch of salt makes food taste better, a cup full of salt makes food taste like... salt.

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I have no love for Joffrey, but has HBO gone overboard depicting his evilness? Did the brutality of what Joffrey did with the prostitutes sent to him by Tyrion seem over the top to you, or do you think this indeed is how Joffrey would turn out in a few years, given everything we know about him?

Yes. Even as a younger character in the book, he was relentlessly sadistic and brutal. The TV show has not shown us all the things we witness through Sansa's POV. The scenes in question in episode 4 (and 1) has done a good job of condensing those moments.

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